Question for Catholics regarding Sanctification

[Cassandra]

Hello! I received this email, and was curious. I will display in parts:

One of the most frequent questions we get at Catholic Answers is whether someone can lose his or her salvation.

Let's take a look at Scripture.

Galatians 5:4 is a go-to text for Catholics when it comes to defending the belief that Christians can lose their salvation:

You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Notice that St. Paul says the Galatians were “severed from Christ” and that they have “fallen away from grace.” Both statements imply that the Galatians had been saved, since to be in Christ and in grace is to be free from condemnation (Rom. 8:1). Yet, these Galatians, who were looking to be justified by the Old Law, are no longer in Christ and in grace. As such, they are currently subject to condemnation, which means they lost that initial saving relationship they had with Christ

Is it because the Galatians believe they were justified that they were not justified, because no one can be justified under the law?

And then this:

For some Protestants, the Catholic take on Paul in Galatians 5:4 is based on a fundamentally flawed assumption. Basically, Catholics don’t understand what Paul is talking about here! They will say “Paul is not talking about a loss of salvation. He’s talking about a loss of sanctification.”

Protestant apologist Norman Geisler, in his book Four Views on Eternal Security, wrote, “they have not lost their true salvation but only their sanctification . . . they have fallen from grace as a means of living a sanctified (holy) life.”

Geisler gives two reasons for this claim. First, “they are already saved,” since they are called “brothers” (6:1) and have placed their “faith” in Christ (3:2). Second, Paul mentions only the threat of the “yoke of slavery” (5:1) and not eternal torment in hell.

How should a Catholic respond?

Our first response is directed toward the overall interpretation here. An immediate glaring problem is that it clashes with the plain sense of the text. Paul doesn’t say, “You who would seek to be sanctified by the law.” Rather, he says, “You who would seek to be justified by the law.” The Greek word for “justified” is dikaioō, the same word that Paul uses when he speaks of justification by faith in Romans 3:28, a text that all Protestants acknowledge refers to justification in the sight of the God.

Now we can turn our attention to the two points in support of Paul talking about sanctification. Galatians 5:4, the argument goes, can’t refer to salvation because “they are already saved,” since they are called “brothers” and have “faith” in Christ. The problem here is the assumption that “already being saved” (being a Christian) necessarily entails being eternally secure in that salvation.

The status of “already being saved” can just as easily be read within the Catholic framework of salvation. On the Catholic view, a believer is truly saved when he initially comes to faith in Christ and enters the body of Christ via baptism. Being a member of Christ’s mystical body constitutes all Christians as spiritual brothers and sisters. It’s just that on the Catholic view, the saving relationship with Christ that we initially enter through baptism can be lost by mortal sin

.

I think this is fascinating and would love to hear some responses on it. It's meaty.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Well it sounds like from the Catholic answer, that the Galatians were following the 10 commandments of old but not obeying the new Royal Law clarified by Jesus (James 2:8-13) further defined in the Sheep and Goats of Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Raccoon1010]

The Galatians 5:6 leads to this discussion on Love. And Galatians 5:13.

 

[Cassandra]

The Galatians 5:6 leads to this discussion on Love. And Galatians 5:13.

What I got out of it was:
Justification is a completed work in an of itself--one cannot justify himself, we are only justified through Christ (i'm fine with this)

BUT
Sanctification is a continuous work and incomplete and is that the reason for the belief in purgatory--that we must complete our sanctification in order to be worthy of heaven?Is that what purgatory does?

 

[Raccoon1010]

What I got out of it was:
Justification is a completed work in an of itself--one cannot justify himself, we are only justified through Christ (i'm fine with this)

BUT
Sanctification is a continuous work and incomplete and is that the reason for the belief in purgatory--that we must complete our sanctification in order to be worthy of heaven?Is that what purgatory does?

Yes Catholics would have to answer that. I watch Catholic Mass and am learning about them, but I'm still new. Purgatory is a strange idea that I somewhat believe in where people are not in the lake of fire but instead in spirit prison. Where Christ taught when he died. But I don't think much is mentioned in the scriptures about hell and what goes on there related to Jesus's visit and what it's purpose was. So I'll stay out of it and let Catholics answer. :) This should be an interesting thread.

 

[Cassandra]

Yes Catholics would have to answer that. I watch Catholic Mass and am learning about them, but I'm still new. Purgatory is a strange idea that I somewhat believe in where people are not in the lake of fire but instead in spirit prison. Where Christ taught when he died. But I don't think much is mentioned in the scriptures about hell and what goes on there related to Jesus's visit and what it's purpose was. So I'll stay out of it and let Catholics answer. :) This should be an interesting thread.

You don't have to stay out!! Maybe it's only you and me that are interested in this.

 

[Raccoon1010]

You don't have to stay out!! Maybe it's only you and me that are interested in this.

OK well I read up on purgatory a little in wikipedia's article. It says that purgatory is different than the lake of fire as it is a place of purification of the elect that need it. Like a refining fire. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Purgatory isn't hell then where people are tormented with fire.

 

[Cassandra]

OK well I read up on purgatory a little in wikipedia's article. It says that purgatory is different than the lake of fire as it is a place of purification of the elect that need it. Like a refining fire. Purgatory - Wikipedia

Purgatory isn't hell then where people are tormented with fire.

Right! I am wondering if sanctification is completed in purgatory according to Catholic belief. I was under the impression that purgatory took care of past sins, but was wondering if there was more to it. How far sanctified do you become?

 

[Raccoon1010]

Right! I am wondering if sanctification is completed in purgatory according to Catholic belief. I was under the impression that purgatory took care of past sins, but was wondering if there was more to it. How far sanctified do you become?

Yes it would appear that sanctification is part of the purgatory process. Should be to perfection in Christ I would think.

 

[Raccoon1010]

Maybe @Marymog or @BreadOfLife or @theefaith could answer?

 

[theefaith]

Christian Purgatory


Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, there attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!

 

[theefaith]

The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe @Marymog or @BreadOfLife or @theefaith could answer?

Contrary to what MOSRT Protestants and non-Catholics think – Purgatory is NOT a “second chance”,
It is NOT to “make up” for what Jesus didn’t or couldn’t do on the cross.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1030-1032) refers to this process as Final Purification of the Elect. “Purgatory” is simply a name that has been assigned to this doctrine – much like word “Trinity”, which does not appear in the Bible either. Final Purification is strictly for those who have left this world in state of grace and are bound for eternity with Christ in Heaven.
In the end – it is only BECAUSE of God’s grace through the finished work of Christ that a Final Purification is possible.

The Bible describes the process:
1 Cor. 3:10‐15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification
Matt. 5:25‐26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32‐35 and Luke 12:58‐59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

It’s interesting how God is described in the Old Testament. There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gets the gold and silver and iron from that material ‐ and he does it with FIRE. We see in Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27‐30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

Since Reve. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean or impure can enter heaven, a final purification or “purgation” is necessary for some before entering heaven. Every single person who goes through Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven.
Because of this , the Catholic Church does NOT teach that we are merely “covered” by the righteousness of Jesus – but that God actually MAKES us pure and righteous before we can enter Heaven.

By contrast – Luther posited that we enter Heaven as “Snow-covered Dunghills).
NOTHING could be further from the truth if Rev. 21:27 is to be believed. God is NOT an idiot and we don’t “sneak” into Heaven.

 

[Taken]

Hello! I received this email, and was curious. I will display in parts:



Is it because the Galatians believe they were justified that they were not justified, because no one can be justified under the law?

And then this:

I think this is fascinating and would love to hear some responses on it. It's meaty.

For 4,000 years, Before men learned of Gods INDWELLING Spirit...
Hebrews/Tribesmen ie ISRAEL (people/not the Nation) were very Familiar...with the Spirit of God BEING WITH them, WITHOUT them, WITH them...etc.

When, How, Why...Gods Spirit was WITH them, WITHOUT them, WITH them, WITHOUT them...is well documented

That has NOT changed.
Men hear, learn, believe, follow along, get sidetracked, pay no attention to God, pop back in for awhile, stray....
Nothing new.

Hebrews 6:
Speaks a bit about enlightenment (learning), tasting, (With) enjoying the Blessings of When WITH God, even the pretense of fooling men that that man has made a Vowed Commitment (when he didn’t really mean it).

Scripture is clear when men deflect From God, by response so also will God NOT be WITH them.

Scripture is expressly Clear, Jesus revealed A HUGE DIFFERENCE between “Tasting” and Being WITH the God, vacillating, WITH / WITHOUT / WITH / WITHOUT......
AND “Eating” Vowing and Being WITH and IN the Lord ... and He WITH and IN the man....Forever YOKING that Person FOREVER WITH the Lord God Almighty.

I believe the Catholics erroneously Teach, God WITH a man is a man receiving Salvation, When Jesus Taught Salvation is given a man whom the Lord Gods Spirit is WITH and IN.
And that WITH and IN, is never in jeopardy of Salvation Loss.

Since, who or what can supersede the Power (Spirit) of God IN a man?

1 John 4:
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So, Yes. If you are a dabbler, a vacillator, wishy washy, easily influenced by the ungodly, “a taster”, with/without...you absolutely Are in a jeopardy position to lose your Promised Salvation by forfeit...

And, Yes. If you are steadfast, confident in the Lord God, trusting, and willingly vowed unto Him, “an eater”...you absolutely Are in assurance you Are Saved and your Salvation is Kept Secure by the Power (Spirit) of the Lord God “IN” you.


Glory to God,

Taken

 

[Cassandra]

Contrary to what MOSRT Protestants and non-Catholics think – Purgatory is NOT a “second chance”,
It is NOT to “make up” for what Jesus didn’t or couldn’t do on the cross.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1030-1032) refers to this process as Final Purification of the Elect. “Purgatory” is simply a name that has been assigned to this doctrine – much like word “Trinity”, which does not appear in the Bible either. Final Purification is strictly for those who have left this world in state of grace and are bound for eternity with Christ in Heaven.
In the end – it is only BECAUSE of God’s grace through the finished work of Christ that a Final Purification is possible.

The Bible describes the process:
1 Cor. 3:10‐15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification
Matt. 5:25‐26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32‐35 and Luke 12:58‐59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

It’s interesting how God is described in the Old Testament. There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gets the gold and silver and iron from that material ‐ and he does it with FIRE. We see in Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27‐30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

Since Reve. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean or impure can enter heaven, a final purification or “purgation” is necessary for some before entering heaven. Every single person who goes through Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven.
Because of this , the Catholic Church does NOT teach that we are merely “covered” by the righteousness of Jesus – but that God actually MAKES us pure and righteous before we can enter Heaven.

By contrast – Luther posited that we enter Heaven as “Snow-covered Dunghills).
NOTHING could be further from the truth if Rev. 21:27 is to be believed. God is NOT an idiot and we don’t “sneak” into Heaven.

Thank you for answering.

 

[Cassandra]

Contrary to what MOSRT Protestants and non-Catholics think – Purgatory is NOT a “second chance”,
It is NOT to “make up” for what Jesus didn’t or couldn’t do on the cross.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1030-1032) refers to this process as Final Purification of the Elect. “Purgatory” is simply a name that has been assigned to this doctrine – much like word “Trinity”, which does not appear in the Bible either. Final Purification is strictly for those who have left this world in state of grace and are bound for eternity with Christ in Heaven.
In the end – it is only BECAUSE of God’s grace through the finished work of Christ that a Final Purification is possible.

The Bible describes the process:
1 Cor. 3:10‐15
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."

- This cannot be Heaven because the person will SUFFER ‐ and there is NO suffering in Heaven.
- This cannot be Hell because the person will be SAVED ‐ ad there is NO salvation in Hell.
- This is describing a THIRD state – a state of Final Purification
Matt. 5:25‐26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32‐35 and Luke 12:58‐59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

It’s interesting how God is described in the Old Testament. There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gets the gold and silver and iron from that material ‐ and he does it with FIRE. We see in Mal. 3:3, Jer. 6:27‐30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

Since Reve. 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean or impure can enter heaven, a final purification or “purgation” is necessary for some before entering heaven. Every single person who goes through Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven.
Because of this , the Catholic Church does NOT teach that we are merely “covered” by the righteousness of Jesus – but that God actually MAKES us pure and righteous before we can enter Heaven.

By contrast – Luther posited that we enter Heaven as “Snow-covered Dunghills).
NOTHING could be further from the truth if Rev. 21:27 is to be believed. God is NOT an idiot and we don’t “sneak” into Heaven.

not to be difficult, just trying to understand.
Jesus blood is not sufficient to cover sins--one must work as well?
So what does salvation mean?
If I die, and I get, what is it, extreme unction, do I still have to go to purgatory?

What role in salvation does the blood of Christ play?

What does Christ our righteousness mean?

 

[BreadOfLife]

not to be difficult, just trying to understand.
Jesus blood is not sufficient to cover sins--one must work as well?
So what does salvation mean?
If I die, and I get, what is it, extreme unction, do I still have to go to purgatory?

What role in salvation does the blood of Christ play?

What does Christ our righteousness mean?

You’re not being difficult. I like conversations with valid questions.
It’s the ones with the unfounded attacks that I don’t like.

Anyway – the Catholic Church teaches that it is BECAUSE of what Jesus did on the cross that we have a chance at being purified before entering Heaven. His sacrifice IS sufficient. Purgatory is not a “work” on our part – it’s the love of God purifying us – just as He is described in the OT, as the Great Refiner.

Jesus didn’t have to do something “extra” in order for us to be purified. However, He doesn’t simply “cover” our filthy soul with His righteousness. God MAKES us righteous and pure. The blood of Christ PAID the penalty for our sins.

As for Extreme Unction – we read, in The Epistle of James:
James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The Presbyters/Priests pray over the sick or dying person and anoints them with oil.
IF they have sins – their sins are forgiven. Jesus gave them the power to forgive sins in His name or to hold them bound and sealed this Authority with the Holy Spirit (John 20:21-23).

Finally - NOT everybody will go through final purification/Purgatory.
Those of us who dies in a perfect state of grace may not need to.

 

[theefaith]

I would say O.S.A.S.!!!

Glory to God our holy savior!