Question: was Cornelius saved under ---

[H. Richard]

Question: was Cornelius saved under the "kingdom gospel (Abrahamic Covenant)" or the "gospel of the grace of God" as taught by Paul?

Cornelius was a blessing to Israel (Acts 10:2,22), and because of this God rewarded him with the hearing of the Word through Peter and receiving salvation. This is EXACTLY the way it was revealed to Abram in Genesis 12:3, "I will bless them [Gentiles] that bless thee" (Abram and his seed]. This is what James knew and so he quoted from Amos (Acts 15:12-19). Cornelius was saved through a saved Jew.

The Gentiles receiving salvation according to the Abrahamic Covenant under the preaching of the 12 were accepted as Jewish proselytes just as they always were under the Jewish law except this time the Gentiles were shown to be accepted "the same way that the Jews were in that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus. This program will also be in effect at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as Israel's Messiah and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple for the millennial reign of Christ. James knew accurately the program of God for Israel and the Gentile nations through the Jews. This is how we are to understand this passage in Acts 15:13-17. But the Jews, as a nation, rejected God's reign through Jesus and that reign has, temporarily, been set aside.

It does not refer to the Body of Christ and the Mystery revealed to Paul. Today we are not saved "through the Jews" since they have been blinded until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. Today, all are saved by the grace of God only. The Acts 2 interpretation, that it refers to the Church, the Body of Christ, is wrong. This whole incident is based on God's Kingdom program for Israel. Cornelius had become a proselyte under the Jewish law when Peter "commanded" him, and his household, to be water baptized; a Jewish custom under the law.

 

[kerwin]

Question: was Cornelius saved under the "kingdom gospel (Abrahamic Covenant)" or the "gospel of the grace of God" as taught by Paul?

Cornelius was a blessing to Israel (Acts 10:2,22), and because of this God rewarded him with the hearing of the Word through Peter and receiving salvation. This is EXACTLY the way it was revealed to Abram in Genesis 12:3, "I will bless them [Gentiles] that bless thee" (Abram and his seed]. This is what James knew and so he quoted from Amos (Acts 15:12-19). Cornelius was saved through a saved Jew.

The Gentiles receiving salvation according to the Abrahamic Covenant under the preaching of the 12 were accepted as Jewish proselytes just as they always were under the Jewish law except this time the Gentiles were shown to be accepted "the same way that the Jews were in that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus. This program will also be in effect at the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ as Israel's Messiah and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple for the millennial reign of Christ. James knew accurately the program of God for Israel and the Gentile nations through the Jews. This is how we are to understand this passage in Acts 15:13-17. But the Jews, as a nation, rejected God's reign through Jesus and that reign has, temporarily, been set aside.

It does not refer to the Body of Christ and the Mystery revealed to Paul. Today we are not saved "through the Jews" since they have been blinded until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. Today, all are saved by the grace of God only. The Acts 2 interpretation, that it refers to the Church, the Body of Christ, is wrong. This whole incident is based on God's Kingdom program for Israel. Cornelius had become a proselyte under the Jewish law when Peter "commanded" him, and his household, to be water baptized; a Jewish custom under the law.

Saved from what?

 

[Angelina]

Abram's seed was Christ. We are not part of the Jewish belief system nor will we ever be, we are Gentile believers in Christ just as those who were Jews and who accepted Jesus as their coming Messiah are also in Christ. The two then have become one flesh because of Christ and the cross. Cornelious was not a Jewish proselyte but rather a devout Gentile believer. There were plenty of them about...

 

[kerwin]

Abram's seed was Christ. We are not part of the Jewish belief system nor will we ever be, we are Gentile believers in Christ just as those who were Jews and who accepted Jesus as their coming Messiah are also in Christ. The two then have become one flesh because of Christ and the cross. Cornelious was not a Jewish proselyte but rather a devout Gentile believer. There were plenty of them about...

I have to disagree with you. We follow the same religion as those that claim to be Jews but are not. (Revelations 2:9 and 3:9).

Technically there are also their counterparts that claim to be Christians but are not.

To be either Jew or a Christian in truth one must believe in the true gospel of Christ and therefore the true Jesus Christ.

Those that are Jews according to the flesh but not according to the Spirit are more upfront than their Christian counterparts about confessing their non-belief in the true gospel of Christ.

The only true Jews are Christians as they follow the true Jewish religion.

Traditionally the two groups branched off from each other; possible due to the Fiscus Judaicus and other factors. In doing that the Christians rendered as a cult; as the Romans defined it and may have set themselves up for the trials and tribulations to come.

Note: Sorry about the lack of transitions but they are not coming to my mind.

 

[Angelina]

I have to disagree with you. We follow the same religion as those that claim to be Jews but are not. (Revelations 2:9 and 3:9).
Technically there are also their counterparts that claim to be Christians but are not.

Well kerwin ~ that would really depend on whether everyone believes that your understanding of Revelation is correct. Since scholars have disagreed on the many interpretations presented re: Revelation over the years ~ I doubt yours would be any better... JMHO

To be either Jew or a Christian in truth one must believe in the true gospel of Christ and therefore the true Jesus Christ.

You are preaching to the converted ~ however, there is no Jew or Greek in Christ.. Galatians 3:28

Those that are Jews according to the flesh but not according to the Spirit are more upfront than their Christian counterparts about confessing their non-belief in the true gospel of Christ.

That's because they are still waiting for the coming Messiah ~ wouldn't you If you did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the coming one but we do believe in Jesus Christ, by grace through faith which is how we came to know him....

The only true Jews are Christians as they follow the true Jewish religion.

Rubbish ~ all believers are one in Christ because of Jesus and his redeeming work on the cross Galatians 3:28

Traditionally the two groups branched off from each other; possible due to the Fiscus Judaicus and other factors. In doing that the Christians rendered as a cult; as the Romans defined it and may have set themselves up for the trials and tribulations to come.

The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, those who did believe in Jesus who are Jews, have become what is known as Messianic believers. They have been cut off from being considered Jews but they still keep some of the laws esp the feasts. Then there are those [mostly pagans and Gentiles like ourselves] who believe in the message of the cross by grace through faith. They are considered to be a cult by Judaic Jews.... However, we who believe in the message of the cross have all become one under Christ. We are no-longer considered Jews or Christians but one in Christ.

BTW ~ Abraham was a believer in Christ well before the Hebrews became a nation and before the law came in....

 

[kerwin]

Well kerwin ~ that would really depend on whether everyone believes that your understanding of Revelation is correct. Since scholars have disagreed on the many interpretations presented re: Revelation over the years ~ I doubt yours would be any better... JMHO


You are preaching to the converted ~ however, there is no Jew or Greek in Christ.. Galatians 3:28


That's because they are still waiting for the coming Messiah ~ wouldn't you If you did not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the coming one but we do believe in Jesus Christ, by grace through faith which is how we came to know him....


Rubbish ~ all believers are one in Christ because of Jesus and his redeeming work on the cross Galatians 3:28


The Judaic Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, those who did believe in Jesus who are Jews, have become what is known as Messianic believers. They have been cut off from being considered Jews but they still keep some of the laws esp the feasts. Then there are those [mostly pagans and Gentiles like ourselves] who believe in the message of the cross by grace through faith. They are considered to be a cult by Judaic Jews.... However, we who believe in the message of the cross have all become one under Christ. We are no-longer considered Jews or Christians but one in Christ.

BTW ~ Abraham was a believer in Christ well before the Hebrews became a nation and before the law came in....

I do think you are misunderstanding the phrase one in Christ; which is about being united in the Spirit of God and in Faith (Ephesians 4) and not about what country of this world one is a citizen of or who is the parents of one's body. Those things are irrelevant to the unity being spoken of.

Jews are still Jews and Gentiles are still Gentiles but they are all one people of Christ that no division arise between them because of any factor except whether or not they are approved of God.

Paul literally teaches us that Christians are the real Jews .

Romans 2:29Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

29 He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God.

 

[Angelina]

I do think you are misunderstanding the phrase one in Christ; which is about being united in the Spirit of God and in Faith (Ephesians 4) and not about what country of this world one is a citizen of or who is the parents of one's body. Those things are irrelevant to the unity being spoken of.

Jews are still Jews and Gentiles are still Gentiles but they are all one people of Christ that no division arise between them because of any factor except whether or not they are approved of God.

Paul literally teaches us that Christians are the real Jews .

If that were true than scripture is also misleading when it says:

In reference to those who were under the law...
23 Before the coming of this faith,we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Gal 3

All believers...
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3

 

[kerwin]

If that were true than scripture is also misleading when it says:

In reference to those who were under the law...
23 Before the coming of this faith,we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Gal 3

All believers...
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3

There is no disagreement between what I posted and any of those verses.

The people of that time spoke in ways we in this time rarely do. The phrase "in Christ" is speaking of existing in the Spirit of Christ, also known as wearing the new human created like God in true holiness and righteousness. The Spirit was not given to those that were under the Law so they could only obey it by wearing the old human, aka the flesh, with its ungodly desires. The Law existed to regulate and so migrate believers' bonds to those unholy desires but the Spirit overcomes the power of Satan and so first weakens then breaks the bonds completely. Without faith a person can not expect to walk according to the Spirit or even receive it.

Slaves were slaves even though they and and their owners were both one in Christ, see Philemon.

 

[Angelina]

I am lost with what you are trying to say here but I understand that a Christian is a believer in and follower of Christ. A Jew is a believer in God and follower of the law. They are two separate people until the Jew believes in Jesus Christ and his redeeming work on the cross and receives him by faith....but a Christian cannot become a Jew...so it is important to understand Paul's audience in the Romans 2:29, he was talking to Jews about their hypocrisy in relation to circumcision and other weighty matters of Jewish law which no-one could keep anyway...that's why Jesus had to come. For those under the law Hebrews 9:15 and those without the law Acts 28:28, Romans 3:29, 15:16

BTW ~ I do not believe in Replacement Theology ~ Supersessionism

 

[kerwin]

If that were true than scripture is also misleading when it says:

In reference to those who were under the law...
23 Before the coming of this faith,we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. Gal 3

All believers...
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3

Paul teaches that only the disobedient are under the Law and not the obedient. Is reason is the obedient do not need the Law because it is in them and written on their hearts and minds. (Romans 2:14-16 in relation to 1 Timothy 1:8-11)

This is in addition to my earlier claim that I slave remains a slave even when they are united with their owner in Christ. Both claims are to show that Jew remains a Jew and a Gentile remains a Gentile even when both are united in Christ.

1 Corinthians 7:17-24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. 18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. 21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. 22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant. 23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. 24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.

 

[kerwin]

I am lost with what you are trying to say here but I understand that a Christian is a believer in and follower of Christ. A Jew is a believer in God and follower of the law. They are two separate people until the Jew believes in Jesus Christ and his redeeming work on the cross and receives him by faith....but a Christian cannot become a Jew...so it is important to understand Paul's audience in the Romans 2:29, he was talking to Jews about their hypocrisy in relation to circumcision and other weighty matters of Jewish law which no-one could keep anyway...that's why Jesus had to come. For those under the law Hebrews 9:15 and those without the law Acts 28:28, Romans 3:29, 15:16

BTW ~ I do not believe in Replacement Theology ~ Supersessionism

The Jews that are not believers in Christ follow a false God because their God does not teach that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the God of Isaac and Abraham. In addition they wait for a false Christ; for if they waited for the true Christ then they would either believe or come to believe Jesus is that Christ.

I am not sure I am a strict Supersessionist though I do in agree with that teaching to some degree. I also am convinced that the Law is binding to Jews because it is an oath and oath-breaking is a fruit of the flesh. On the other hand, they are not under a different covenant than the Gentiles.

Never the less, the Covenant of Moses is obsolete because where it lacked power the Covenant of the Spirit does not. .

 

[Angelina]

Paul teaches that only the disobedient are under the Law and not the obedient. Is reason is the obedient do not need the Law because it is in them and written on their hearts and minds. (Romans 2:14-16 in relation to 1 Timothy 1:8-11)

Paul is not teaching that the disobedient are under the law. What he was trying to do was to show the Jews that an inward heart change is more important than physical circumcision. Physical circumcision is only good if you can keep the law but we know as well as they, that no-one actually kept the whole law without failing in one point....What Paul was saying also, was that there were non Jews out there who did not know the law but they had an inward consciousness of what was right and what was wrong. Therefore they had the law [although they did not know it] written in their hearts. "They were a law unto themselves"....meaning ~ they did things their own way and followed their own ideas about how to live instead of following what others did

 

[Angelina]

The Jews that are not believers in Christ follow a false God because their God does not teach that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the God of Isaac and Abraham. In addition they wait for a false Christ; for if they waited for the true Christ then they would either believe or come to believe Jesus is that Christ.

I already said that in the posts above...You are only reiterating what I have already said :huh:

On the other hand, they are not under a different covenant than the Gentiles.

Oh yes they are...that is one of the reasons for Christ's death and resurrection.

Hebrews 8:7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 9:15
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Gentile believers are under the new covenant by grace through faith. Judaic Jews still follow and practice the law under the first covenant...

Added: Any non-Jew saved today, will fall under the category of the new Covenant. The Jews however, continue to teach the old covenant and are not believers in Jesus our Lord and Savior.

 

[kerwin]

I already said that in the posts above...You are only reiterating what I have already said :huh:


Oh yes they are...that is one of the reasons for Christ's death and resurrection.

Hebrews 8:7
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

Hebrews 9:15
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Gentile believers are under the new covenant by grace through faith. Judaic Jews still follow and practice the law under the first covenant...

Added: Any non-Jew saved today, will fall under the category of the new Covenant. The Jews however, continue to teach the old covenant and are not believers in Jesus our Lord and Savior.

I was speaking of those Jews that are Christians being under the same covenant as those Gentiles that are Christians.

That being the case I do not think we are disagreeing on either of these issues.

 

[kerwin]

Paul is not teaching that the disobedient are under the law. What he was trying to do was to show the Jews that an inward heart change is more important than physical circumcision. Physical circumcision is only good if you can keep the law but we know as well as they, that no-one actually kept the whole law without failing in one point....What Paul was saying also, was that there were non Jews out there who did not know the law but they had an inward consciousness of what was right and what was wrong. Therefore they had the law [although they did not know it] written in their hearts. "They were a law unto themselves"....meaning ~ they did things their own way and followed their own ideas about how to live instead of following what others did

Those that have the Law placed in them and written on their hearts and mind do godly things because that has become their second nature and they have learned to suppress their fallen nature. So, their own ideas about how to live would be God's ideas and not those of their fallen nature, aka the flesh.

 

[H. Richard]

Those that have the Law placed in them and written on their hearts and mind do godly things because that has become their second nature and they have learned to suppress their fallen nature. So, their own ideas about how to live would be God's ideas and not those of their fallen nature, aka the flesh.

***
There is no one on earth today that has the law of God written on their hearts. That prophesy was made to the Jews and will take place when Jesus returns to set up His reign in Jeruslem.

Jer 31:33
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

 

[kerwin]

***
There is no one on earth today that has the law of God written on their hearts. That prophesy was made to the Jews and will take place when Jesus returns to set up His reign in Jeruslem.

Jer 31:33
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

That particular passage is quoted twice in the book of Hebrews as being fulfilled.

Hebrews 8:8-11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Hebrews 10:14-17Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Paul also refers to the idea expressed therein as proof of his credentials though he does not quote it.

2 Corinthians 3:1-3Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

 

[Angelina]

Those that have the Law placed in them and written on their hearts and mind do godly things because that has become their second nature and they have learned to suppress their fallen nature. So, their own ideas about how to live would be God's ideas and not those of their fallen nature, aka the flesh.

That's right I agree but the bible is not clearly stating that....

 

[kerwin]

That's right I agree but the bible is not clearly stating that....

It clearly states but not literally and I believe the later is what you mean.

The fallen nature is called flesh and the godly nature is called Spirit in Galatians 5. One has to connect that Scripture to others speaking about God writing the Law on hearts and minds of believers. Those that either see no connection or interpret the particular passages involved will not see it.

 

[Angelina]

It clearly states but not literally and I believe the later is what you mean.
The fallen nature is called flesh and the godly nature is called Spirit in Galatians 5. One has to connect that Scripture to others speaking about God writing the Law on hearts and minds of believers. Those that either see no connection or interpret the particular passages involved will not see it.

I do not believe that a non-believer has the capacity to follow what the law requires unless God has already been working in that particular heart or that person has some kind of experience in Jewish tradition/culture/world view. JMHO