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question

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Shingy, Jul 25, 2007.

  1. Shingy

    Shingy New Member

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    What happens to the people who have never heard the words "Jesus Christ"?Immunity?
     
  2. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    I'll give you my two cents on this..... first of all, I as of now do not believe in "second chance" doctrines. Some folks do. However, I was raised in a mainline Evangelical church as I found them to be wrong on other things, so I may be wrong. However, I am not aware of any Scripture teaching it as many times as I read thru the bible. There is a resurrection of the just and unjust (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29) In both of these contexts it seems to me with a plain reading of the text that a person's fate is decided at death because they are already labeled as righteous or wicked at the resurrection. The righteous goes to life eternal (the second birth, 2 births one death; and the wicked face the second death---- one birth two deaths). Now, you may be asking what happens to a person that never heard? I like what Paul stated---- in effect "none of your business". For God in His sovereignty created some people to be vessels of wrath and others for His glory (see Romans 9). But as for those who never heard the gospel, I'll say what I believe based on what Paul stated--- such a person is expected to walk in the light that they have, and that's how God would judge them. For Paul stated in Romans 2:15 that those without the Law have their own conscience bearing witness so they are likewise judged as surely as a person who knows the Law and yet sinned. In other words, if a person goes against their conscience (which is all they know), that presupposes rebellion and the mechanism is the same as if they had the Law. How are they then saved? What did Paul say? By keeping the Law? No. They OT saints were saved the same way that NT ones were saved. By faith. So one who does not have the gospel can be saved by faith in what they know (i.e. revealed) to them. Oftentimes the Lord sends missions to such people as testified in the bible and in stories one hears.Now.... all this being said, I am a person that believes in British-Israelite teaching. That is not a mainline position. But I believe it because of straight-forward promises in the bible (e.g. Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:19) and logical deduction based on myriads of scripture that describes them, tells what direction they went, and so forth. I get a tad impatient when people do not see this. I'm not one to "song and dance" around a scripture verse to make it fit my notions.On the other hand, the churches that teach lost tribes I think have the strangest interpretations on other parts of scripture especially subjects dealing with spiritual subjects. I tend to hold mainline doctrines there. The reason being that I see some who otherwise present scripture plainly enough regarding Israel "song and dance" around other scriptures (which seems somewhat contradictory to me). I hate when one reads something straightforward I'm told it does not really mean that.
     
  3. medicalmatt

    medicalmatt New Member

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    I saw this question, and I immediately thought "Romans 2!" Looks like you beat me to it Tim [​IMG] I have never heard of "British-Israelite teaching" though. Could you elaborate please?
     
  4. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    (medicalmatt;14126)
    I saw this question, and I immediately thought "Romans 2!" Looks like you beat me to it Tim [​IMG] I have never heard of "British-Israelite teaching" though. Could you elaborate please?
    I'm fairly new here yet. Just hang around Kriss---- she has some out now regarding the study in Galatians. She's very knowledgeable.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Of course, our sister in Christ is indeed very knowledgeable. And I am glad we had quite a few brothers and sisters in Christ that is very knowledgeable and are very willingly to help others...Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour. [​IMG]
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thanks guys I am humbled, but I still have much to learn.God willing we can learn together:) I did not write the study on Galations but I do approve of it has many concepts I believe and thought it was a wonderful study and wanted to share it with you all. And as Jag said we have many here who have been blessed with eyes to see and ears to hear
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Shingy;14089)
    What happens to the people who have never heard the words "Jesus Christ"?Immunity?
    It depends on the reason and the person only God can judge ones heart.The spirit of God lives within us all. If your heart is judged good and just by God.You will be saved and taught Gods word in the millenium. Reading Gods Word is not a requirement for salvationbelieving upon Christ is. As we know many have read/heard it and have no understanding.Just hearing it wont save anyone. I believe those who are good of heart but not heard his word. Their soul/spirit will recognize himand bow to him when they see him.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Kriss)
    It depends on the reason and the person only God can judge ones heart.The spirit of God lives within us all. If your heart is judged good and just by God.You will be saved and taught Gods word in the millenium. Reading Gods Word is not a requirement for salvationbelieving upon Christ is. I believe those who are good of heart but not heard his word. Their soul/spirit will recognize himand bow to him when they see him.
    Just a question for you Kriss...I agree with the fact that believing upon Christ is a requirement for salvation, but the devils also believe in Christ but they tremble in the below scripture.James 2:19 - Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.The question is this Kriss, How can one know the truth, if they never heard it, yet they listen to man's advices? Christ told us to search the scripture.John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.II Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.Isaiah 34:16 - Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.So it is really important to have the bible. Because without it, is is likely impossible to find the truth...it would be like everybody believes is right. no one is wrong. But God knew better, He did gives us the Word.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.You are right about this, God is the judge. [​IMG]
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Jag thats why I qulified my statement by depends on the person and the reasons. If you read it to twist and lie and mislead people God will know whats in your heart and knowing the word wont save you. If you are mentally challenged and have a good heart but studying his word is beyond your capacity.Would our loving father hold this against you? No of corse not.If you live on some desert Island and never heard of Christ but live a goodly life would you be judged the same as someone who knew all about him but just chose to not bother to read his word?See why I say depends on the person and the reason? If you live in a modern country. With all the access at your finger tips. Then you better have a good reason when God asks "have you not read/heard"
     
  10. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

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    Let me just add one more thought about faith. I actually hate when James is quoted, because while I believe it is God's Word by axiomatic truth, I wonder (as a person) if he understood what the Spirit enabled him to write? In this culture, "faith" is looked upon as a noun. We sing the hymn Faith of our Fathers and perhaps that conjures up an image of George Washington striking a grand pose for a portrait or what ever.However, in the Greek sense, the word is more of a verb. This faith bears good works and action as a result. I 100% agree with James that says faith without works is dead. But what James should have used instead was the word "belief". Belief never saved anybody. Belief resulting in works is faith. The devils don't have faith, otherwise they would hang themselves on God's Word and do what he commands. Rather, they have belief in his existence and what he does. We all have belief that our enemy exists. We don't have faith in them. We could not depend on them for anything.
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Kriss)
    Jag thats why I qulified my statement by depends on the person and the reasons. If you read it to twist and lie and mislead people God will know whats in your heart and knowing the Word wont save you.
    That is very true Kriss. The Word won't save someone who is self-pride, wanting to torture the truth of God and misleading people. For some reason, there might be people who teaches lies, yet they are completely unaware that what they are teaching is a lie... God is the judge. [​IMG](Kriss)
    If you are mentally challenged and have a good heart but studying his word is beyond your capacity.Would our loving Father hold this against you? No of course not.
    Actually He would. But He can't force someone to do that. [​IMG] This statement is pretty much human reasoning.(Kriss)
    If you live on some desert Island and never heard of Christ but live a goodly life would you be judged the same as someone who knew all about him but just chose to not bother to read his word?
    For someone to have not heard of Christ (when no one gave them the Gospel) on a desert island is completely different than the person who "knew" about Him, and chose not to read His Word. Both sides will be judge differently.Note: It is not likely at all, that a person who never heard of Christ will recognize Him as God.(Kriss)
    See why I say depends on the person and the reason? If you live in a modern country. With all the access at your finger tips. Then you better have a good reason when God asks "have you not read/heard"
    I can only give two explanation(sp?) here1. Doesn't want to be with Him.Or2. Never heard of the Gospel of Christ.Conclusion: It is rather impossible for God to lean unto human reasoning (Men's tradition)(Guesswork) because in the beginning wisdom belongs to Him and...God's reasoning is way beyond human's reasoning. Human reasononing is inside the barrier. God reasoning is past that barrier. So it's not healthy to lean unto human reasoning.Isaiah 55:8-9 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    That's my whole point Jagster only God can read our hearts so only he can judge What is in our mind and and hearts for us to make a blanket statement about that covers everyone about this matter is not possible.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I am glad, we'd agree with it. And that is true. [​IMG]Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  14. Shingy

    Shingy New Member

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    (tim_from_pa;14124)
    I'll give you my two cents on this..... first of all, I as of now do not believe in "second chance" doctrines. Some folks do. However, I was raised in a mainline Evangelical church as I found them to be wrong on other things, so I may be wrong. However, I am not aware of any Scripture teaching it as many times as I read thru the bible. There is a resurrection of the just and unjust (Daniel 12:2, John 5:25-29) In both of these contexts it seems to me with a plain reading of the text that a person's fate is decided at death because they are already labeled as righteous or wicked at the resurrection. The righteous goes to life eternal (the second birth, 2 births one death; and the wicked face the second death---- one birth two deaths). Now, you may be asking what happens to a person that never heard? I like what Paul stated---- in effect "none of your business". For God in His sovereignty created some people to be vessels of wrath and others for His glory (see Romans 9). But as for those who never heard the gospel, I'll say what I believe based on what Paul stated--- such a person is expected to walk in the light that they have, and that's how God would judge them. For Paul stated in Romans 2:15 that those without the Law have their own conscience bearing witness so they are likewise judged as surely as a person who knows the Law and yet sinned. In other words, if a person goes against their conscience (which is all they know), that presupposes rebellion and the mechanism is the same as if they had the Law. How are they then saved? What did Paul say? By keeping the Law? No. They OT saints were saved the same way that NT ones were saved. By faith. So one who does not have the gospel can be saved by faith in what they know (i.e. revealed) to them. Oftentimes the Lord sends missions to such people as testified in the bible and in stories one hears.Now.... all this being said, I am a person that believes in British-Israelite teaching. That is not a mainline position. But I believe it because of straight-forward promises in the bible (e.g. Genesis 35:11, Genesis 48:19) and logical deduction based on myriads of scripture that describes them, tells what direction they went, and so forth. I get a tad impatient when people do not see this. I'm not one to "song and dance" around a scripture verse to make it fit my notions.On the other hand, the churches that teach lost tribes I think have the strangest interpretations on other parts of scripture especially subjects dealing with spiritual subjects. I tend to hold mainline doctrines there. The reason being that I see some who otherwise present scripture plainly enough regarding Israel "song and dance" around other scriptures (which seems somewhat contradictory to me). I hate when one reads something straightforward I'm told it does not really mean that.
    Thanks for the great response. I see they do get more chances ot hear God and have faith in God.Or as Romands 9 says, perhaps God jusges them on what is good in their heart. Either way, it sounds good to me.
     
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