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aspen

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Since the Trolls have taken over and the admin has not intervened - let's call this thread what it has become - a place for people to personally attack Catholic members on this board, while parading sacred Catholic beliefs with graphic pictures and exaggerated language, in order to put them in the worst light possible; answer for catholics; and rather than engage in respectful dialog - fight as much as possible for Jesus.

Since it has become obvious that a decent thread committed to discussing doctrinal similarities and difference has become impossible here, if you have any real questions for a catholic (that will not be read by people who believe they know more about Catholicism than people who practice it) email me at [email protected]. I will not respond to people who are only interested in attacking - Anastacia, Bud02, marksman - do not bother.
 

Selene

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As some of you know, I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church. This fact has not always been so; I was raised as a Calvinist in a conservative Presbyterian Church. I graduated from a Presbyterian College and went on to be a youth director in a Presbyterian Church (USA). The liberalness of the church I worked for was enough to encourage me to look for depth and meaning elsewhere. I soon began reading Philip Yancey and Thomas Merton and began moving towards the Catholic church - I was so intrigued that I wished it was Christian. A few years later, I was working at the church and going to graduate school when I met an educated Catholic; she help me realize that I was in disagreement with a Catholic tradition of my own design, rather than the Roman Catholic Church. After two more years of investigation, I joined RCIA and became a member of the church; that was ten years ago. Two years after joining the church, I joined a Benedictine monastery as a third order Benedictine oblate.

After talking with the admin of this site, I have decided to open up a thread for purposes of dialog between Protestants and myself. Here are some ideas associated with the purpose of this thread:

1. I am not trying to make anyone Catholic. I believe anyone who repents of their sins and believes Jesus Christ died for their sins is a Christian.
2. This is not a search engine for Catholic dogma. I will answer questions based on my understanding of Catholicism and the Bible - if you want to learn Catholic dogma you can refer to the online Catholic Catechism or a good Bible resource site for more knowledge on the scriptures.
3. I may agree with you - it does not mean that you have waged war on the Roman Catholic Church and won - it means that I agree with your assessment of scripture.
4. If you are unclear about my basic beliefs please refer to my post in the welcome section of the site.

Here are a few things to expect from me in relation to this thread:

1. I will answer the questions I want to answer and ignore the ones I want to ignore.
2. If I do not have an answer I will tell you. I will also let you know when I am finish with a discussion we are having - my answer may not satisfy you - tough.
3. Because I am not a professional apologist, I may not have time to give you and answer so I might suggest another source
4. I am sensitive to ad hominen language and will probably ignore any comments or questions I view as personally abusive.
5. I will not discuss the Eucharist (too sacred) or Eschatology ( too vague and open to too much anti-catholic bias - the RC is the Beast power, ect)
6. Finally, I will not respond to posts referring to me as a "Papist, "Romanist", or a follower of 'the great whore' (john hagee).

Hopefully, we can have a good discussion. I believe we share more common ground as Christians than disagreements; if you doubt this, we can at least agree that we both believe the other persons does not truly understand Roman Catholicism! If this thread becomes divisive I trust that admin will close it down.

Peace

Hello Aspen,

I am a Roman Catholic and I am very knowledgeable in the Catholic faith and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am a Minister of the Word in my parish, and I am currently walking in the Way as a Co-Responsible in my community. My family are strong in the Catholic faith. My youngest brother is in the Knights of Columbus and my grandmother was a St. Francis of the Third Order. I would be happy to lend a hand in your dialogue with our brothers and sisters in the Protestant churches.

In Christ,
Selene
 

aspen

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Hello Aspen,

I am a Roman Catholic and I am very knowledgeable in the Catholic faith and in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am a Minister of the Word in my parish, and I am currently walking in the Way as a Co-Responsible in my community. My family are strong in the Catholic faith. My youngest brother is in the Knights of Columbus and my grandmother was a St. Francis of the Third Order. I would be happy to lend a hand in your dialogue with our brothers and sisters in the Protestant churches.

In Christ,
Selene

Sounds great Selene - your comments are welcome.

There are some ground rules, however (from the admin) - this thread cannot become a means of recruitment or simply a place to post Catholic teachings. We can use the Catechism and the Bible as reference, but we have to speak from our heart. Also, don't get too invested - the plug could be pulled at any time.

BTW, my wife is a Third order Franciscan, as well.

blessings
 

bud02

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Nice badge Aspen, every deputy needs a badge

av-6411.jpg
 

aspen

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Nice badge Aspen, every deputy needs a badge

av-6411.jpg


Description of the Jubilee Medal
Because the Jubilee Medal of 1880 has all the important features ever associated with the Medal of St. Benedict, the following description of this medal can serve to make clear the nature and intent of any medal of St. Benedict, no matter what shape or design it may legitimately have.


The Cross of Eternal Salvation

On the face of the medal is the image of Saint Benedict. In his right hand he holds the cross, the Christian's symbol of salvation. The cross reminds us of the zealous work of evangelizing and civilizing England and Europe carried out mainly by the Benedictine monks and nuns, especially for the sixth to the ninth/tenth centuries.



<br clear="all">Rule and Raven
In St. Benedict's left hand is his Rule for Monasteries that could well be summed up in the words of the Prologexhorting us to "walk in God's ways, with the Gospel as our guide."

On a pedestal to the right of St. Benedict is the poisoned cup, shattered when he made the sign of the cross over it. On a pedestal to the left is a raven about to carry away a loaf of poisoned bread that a jealous enemy had sent to St. Benedict.


C. S. P. B.
Above the cup and the raven are the Latin words: Crux s. patris Benedicti (The Cross of our holy father Benedict). On the margin of the medal, encircling the figure of Benedict, are the Latin words: Eius in obitu nostro praesentia muniamur! (May we be strengthened by his presence in the hour of our death!). Benedictines have always regarded St. Benedict as a special patron of a happy death. He himself died in the chapel at Montecassino while standing with his arms raised up to heaven, supported by the brothers of the monastery, shortly after St. Benedict had received Holy Communion.


Monte Cassino
Below Benedict we read: ex SM Casino MDCCCLXXX (from holy Monte Cassino, 1880). This is the medal struck to commemorate the 1400th anniversary of the birth of Saint Benedict.


Reverse Side of the Medal

Crux mihi lux
On the back of the medal, the cross is dominant. On the arms of the cross are the initial letters of a rhythmic Latin prayer: Crux sacra sit mihi lux! Nunquam draco sit mihi dux! (May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!).

In the angles of the cross, the letters C S P B stand for Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti (The cross of our holy father Benedict).


Peace
Above the cross is the word pax (peace), that has been a Benedictine motto for centuries. Around the margin of the back of the medal, the letters V R S N S M V - S M Q L I V B are the initial letters, as mentioned above, of a Latin prayer of exorcism against Satan: Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas! (Begone Satan! Never tempt me with your vanities! What you offer me is evil. Drink the poison yourself!)

 

Jobeliano

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Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:

1. Why do they worship statues(idols)?
- I am a Roman Catholic too and I go to church every Sunday and there are statues of God, Jesus and Mary in there, why do they do this when it is clear in the Bible that you shouldn't make those things.


2. Why do they worship Mary?
- Just last week the statue of Virgin Mary came to our hose for a week(now it's gone), we will say the Holy Rossary, 10 Hail Mary, 10 Holy Mary. Why do they worship Mary?


3. Why is it that priests are not allowed to marry?



I actually wanted to change religion but my parents won't probably allow me to.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
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Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:

1. Why do they worship statues(idols)?
- I am a Roman Catholic too and I go to church every Sunday and there are statues of God, Jesus and Mary in there, why do they do this when it is clear in the Bible that you shouldn't make those things.

I am only going to answer one question at a time. Who taught you that Catholics worship statues? This is troubling to me that a Catholic would ask this question - honestly!

Roman Catholics do not worship statues - worship is for God alone. Catholics do pray to saints - many statues in churches are of saints - they are used like pictures - no educated Catholic actually prays to granite or plaster - they are praying to the saint in Heaven.

If you are engaging in worshiping a statue you need to stop immediately! You are engaging in idolatry.

Peace
 

bud02

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Aug 14, 2010
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Description of the Jubilee Medal
Because the Jubilee Medal of 1880 has all the important features ever associated with the Medal of St. Benedict, the following description of this medal can serve to make clear the nature and intent of any medal of St. Benedict, no matter what shape or design it may legitimately have.


The Cross of Eternal Salvation
medobvs.gif

On the face of the medal is the image of Saint Benedict. In his right hand he holds the cross, the Christian's symbol of salvation. The cross reminds us of the zealous work of evangelizing and civilizing England and Europe carried out mainly by the Benedictine monks and nuns, especially for the sixth to the ninth/tenth centuries.



<br clear="all">Rule and Raven
In St. Benedict's left hand is his Rule for Monasteries that could well be summed up in the words of the Prologexhorting us to "walk in God's ways, with the Gospel as our guide."

On a pedestal to the right of St. Benedict is the poisoned cup, shattered when he made the sign of the cross over it. On a pedestal to the left is a raven about to carry away a loaf of poisoned bread that a jealous enemy had sent to St. Benedict.


C. S. P. B.
Above the cup and the raven are the Latin words: Crux s. patris Benedicti (The Cross of our holy father Benedict). On the margin of the medal, encircling the figure of Benedict, are the Latin words: Eius in obitu nostro praesentia muniamur! (May we be strengthened by his presence in the hour of our death!). Benedictines have always regarded St. Benedict as a special patron of a happy death. He himself died in the chapel at Montecassino while standing with his arms raised up to heaven, supported by the brothers of the monastery, shortly after St. Benedict had received Holy Communion.


Monte Cassino
Below Benedict we read: ex SM Casino MDCCCLXXX (from holy Monte Cassino, 1880). This is the medal struck to commemorate the 1400th anniversary of the birth of Saint Benedict.


Reverse Side of the Medal

medrevs.gif
Crux mihi lux

On the back of the medal, the cross is dominant. On the arms of the cross are the initial letters of a rhythmic Latin prayer: Crux sacra sit mihi lux! Nunquam draco sit mihi dux! (May the holy cross be my light! May the dragon never be my guide!).

In the angles of the cross, the letters C S P B stand for Crux Sancti Patris Benedicti (The cross of our holy father Benedict).


Peace
Above the cross is the word pax (peace), that has been a Benedictine motto for centuries. Around the margin of the back of the medal, the letters V R S N S M V - S M Q L I V B are the initial letters, as mentioned above, of a Latin prayer of exorcism against Satan: Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas! (Begone Satan! Never tempt me with your vanities! What you offer me is evil. Drink the poison yourself!)

Wow thats all godly and stuff, I once seen a plastic Jesus on the dash of a car I imediatly knew they were godly people as well.
How do you learn all this stuff about god?
 
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religusnut

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As some of you know, I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church. This fact has not always been so; I was raised as a Calvinist in a conservative Presbyterian Church. I graduated from a Presbyterian College and went on to be a youth director in a Presbyterian Church (USA). The liberalness of the church I worked for was enough to encourage me to look for depth and meaning elsewhere. I soon began reading Philip Yancey and Thomas Merton and began moving towards the Catholic church - I was so intrigued that I wished it was Christian. A few years later, I was working at the church and going to graduate school when I met an educated Catholic; she help me realize that I was in disagreement with a Catholic tradition of my own design, rather than the Roman Catholic Church. After two more years of investigation, I joined RCIA and became a member of the church; that was ten years ago. Two years after joining the church, I joined a Benedictine monastery as a third order Benedictine oblate.

After talking with the admin of this site, I have decided to open up a thread for purposes of dialog between Protestants and myself. Here are some ideas associated with the purpose of this thread:

1. I am not trying to make anyone Catholic. I believe anyone who repents of their sins and believes Jesus Christ died for their sins is a Christian.
2. This is not a search engine for Catholic dogma. I will answer questions based on my understanding of Catholicism and the Bible - if you want to learn Catholic dogma you can refer to the online Catholic Catechism or a good Bible resource site for more knowledge on the scriptures.
3. I may agree with you - it does not mean that you have waged war on the Roman Catholic Church and won - it means that I agree with your assessment of scripture.
4. If you are unclear about my basic beliefs please refer to my post in the welcome section of the site.

Here are a few things to expect from me in relation to this thread:

1. I will answer the questions I want to answer and ignore the ones I want to ignore.
2. If I do not have an answer I will tell you. I will also let you know when I am finish with a discussion we are having - my answer may not satisfy you - tough.
3. Because I am not a professional apologist, I may not have time to give you and answer so I might suggest another source
4. I am sensitive to ad hominen language and will probably ignore any comments or questions I view as personally abusive.
5. I will not discuss the Eucharist (too sacred) or Eschatology ( too vague and open to too much anti-catholic bias - the RC is the Beast power, ect)
6. Finally, I will not respond to posts referring to me as a "Papist, "Romanist", or a follower of 'the great whore' (john hagee).

Hopefully, we can have a good discussion. I believe we share more common ground as Christians than disagreements; if you doubt this, we can at least agree that we both believe the other persons does not truly understand Roman Catholicism! If this thread becomes divisive I trust that admin will close it down.

Peace

Sorry I don't see me being able to do much conversing on this topic. I totally disagree with Calvanism and I don't see Catholism as being there either.
 

aspen

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Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:

2. Why do they worship Mary?
- Just last week the statue of Virgin Mary came to our hose for a week(now it's gone), we will say the Holy Rossary, 10 Hail Mary, 10 Holy Mary. Why do they worship Mary?


Catholics do not worship Mary - she is a created being like all of us. She is venerated because of her obedience to God. Hail Marys are prayers to Mary - usually for other people. I think of praying with Mary rather than to her because she is part of the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews and part of the Body of Christ, which according to Paul cannot be separated from Christ even in death.

If you are worshiping Mary as a god - stop immediately! You are committing idolatry.



Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:


3. Why is it that priests are not allowed to marry?

Priests do not marry because of a tradition started in the early Middle Ages. During that time, priests did marry and started leaving church land to their children so the church decided to ban marriage for priests. The tradition is not apart of sacred tradition so it could be reversed at any time.

Peace

I actually wanted to change religion but my parents won't probably allow me to.


Why? Have you read the Catechism?



Sorry I don't see me being able to do much conversing on this topic. I totally disagree with Calvanism and I don't see Catholism as being there either.

No pressure




Wow thats all godly and stuff, I once seen a plastic Jesus on the dash of a car I imediatly knew they were godly people as well.
How do you learn all this stuff about god?

Did you actually have a question, Bud02? You know, you are the inspiration for this thread - so now is your chance to ask questions. Or was your purpose for suggesting that I speak about Catholicism simply in the hopes of getting me banned? I know you have mentioned some concerns about too many Catholics on this board in the past......
 

Anastacia

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Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:

1. Why do they worship statues(idols)?
- I am a Roman Catholic too and I go to church every Sunday and there are statues of God, Jesus and Mary in there, why do they do this when it is clear in the Bible that you shouldn't make those things.



I actually wanted to change religion but my parents won't probably allow me to.


Hi Jobeliano, You've come to the right place for the Truth. I was raised strict Traditional Catholic. I am no longer a Catholic. May God bless you greatly with the Truth.


Catholics do worship statues. Here is part of an article and link from a Catholic site. It will help you to see that Catholics do worship statues:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

In both East and West the reverence we pay to images has crystallized into formal ritual. In the Latin Rite the priest is commanded to bow to the cross in the sacristy before he leaves it to say Mass ("Ritus servandus" in the Missal, II, 1); he bows again profoundly "to the altar or the image of the crucifix placed upon it" when he begins Mass (ibid., II, 2); he begins incensing the altar by incensing the crucifix on it (IV, 4), and bows to it every time he passes it (ibid.); he also incenses any relics or images of saints that may be on the altar (ibid.). In the same way many such commands throughout our rubrics show that always a reverence is to be paid to the cross or images of saints whenever we approach them.



Did you see that? The Catholics pay reverence to images. And, the priest is commanded to bow to the cross---he bows profoundly to the altar or images place upon it. He even incenses the altar and the crucifix and bows to it every time he passed it! The priest also incenses any relics or images of saint that may be on the altar. Do you know what relics are of saints? They are clothing and their dead body remains! These are commands of the Catholic Church! Everytime a person enters a Catholic Church, they bow before sitting down---they are bowing to the altar and the "holy images" (pictures and statues of Jesus, Mary, and Catholic saints).



Read here from a Catholic site how the priest incenses statues and relics:

Symbolism and manner of incensing

Incense, with its sweet-smelling perfume and high-ascending smoke, is typical of the good Christian's prayer, which, enkindled in the heart by the fire of God's love and exhaling the odour of Christ, rises up a pleasing offering in His sight (cf. Amalarius, "De eccles. officiis" in P.L., CV). Incensing is the act of imparting the odour of incense. The censer is held in the right hand at the height of the breast, and grasped by the chain near the cover; the left hand, holding the top of the chain, is placed on the breast.

The censer is then raised upwards to the height of the eyes, given an outward motion and slightly ascending towards the object to be incensed, and at once brought back to the starting point. This constitutes a single swing. For a double swing the outward motion should be repeated, the second movement being more pronounced than the first. The dignity of the person or thing will determine whether the swing is to be single or double, and also whether one swing or more are to be given. The incense-boat is the vessel containing the incense for immediate use. It is so called from its shape. It is generally carried by the thurifer in the disengaged hand.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07716a.htm



Read here about what the Bible says about what happened to the bronze snake that Moses made. The Israelites burned incense to the bronze snake, so it was destroyed. So how do the Catholics do what God hates when the Catholic priest burns incense to the crucifix and any relics or images.


2 KIngs 18:1 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. 3 He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)




I have shown you in the above post I made that Catholics do worship statues---they are COMMANDED to bow to them. Now read what the Bible says.......


Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.


No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)

 
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bud02

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Did you actually have a question, Bud02? You know, you are the inspiration for this thread - so now is your chance to ask questions. Or was your purpose for suggesting that I speak about Catholicism simply in the hopes of getting me banned? I know you have mentioned some concerns about too many Catholics on this board in the past......

Now that you mention it, What I dislike is catholics posing as protestants on protestant sites, Selen is the most obvious but still won't expound on all the requirements for salvation as defined by your church. I find that just plain being dishonest. You all come here and nod your heads thats yes thats how salvation is found. Now it may in the form of works of some kind or another but you ALL distinctly leave out all the other requirements that must be met buy your church. Your church teaches that those out side the catholic faith are not in a state of salvation. So any statement from any true Catholics speaking of salvation but failing to mention the requirements of their churches faith is what?

And while Im at it I always thought, no I absolutely know that the catholic church does not teach that Mary is created being just like us. As you pointed out to the young man searching for answers.
As you did at the top of this post.
Catholics do not worship Mary - she is a created being like all of us. She is venerated because of her obedience to God. Hail Marys are prayers to Mary - usually for other people. I think of praying with Mary rather than to her because she is part of the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews and part of the Body of Christ, which according to Paul cannot be separated from Christ even in death.

The catholic answers site is down right now or Id show it to you.
 
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aspen

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Hi Jobeliano, You've come to the right place for the Truth. I was raised strict Traditional Catholic. I am no longer a Catholic. May God bless you greatly with the Truth.


Catholics do worship statues. Here is part of an article and link from a Catholic site. It will help you to see that Catholics do worship statues:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm

If this is true, Anastacia - than why do Catholics deny it? The Catholic Catechism teaches Catholics not to worship statues.......


The Schoolmen discussed the whole question at length. St. Thomas declares what idolatry is in the "Summa Theologica", II-II:94, and explains the use of images in the Catholic Church (II-II:94:2, ad 1Um). He distinguishes between latria and dulia (II-II:103). The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent (Dec., 1543) repeats faithfully the principles of Nicaea II:

[The holy Synod commands] that images of Christ, the Virgin Mother of God, and other saints are to be held and kept especially in churches, that due honour and reverence (debitum honorem et venerationem) are to be paid to them, not that any divinity or power is thought to be in them for the sake of which they may be worshipped, or that anything can be asked of them, or that any trust may be put in images, as was done by the heathen who put their trust in their idols [Psalm 134:15 sqq.], but because the honour shown to them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by kissing, uncovering to, kneeling before images we adore Christ and honour the saints whose likeness they bear (Denzinger, no. 986).​
As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject one could hardly quote anything better expressed than the "Catechism of Christian Doctrine" used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

  • "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
  • "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
  • "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
  • "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."
 

Anastacia

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If this is true, Anastacia - than why do Catholics deny it? The Catholic Catechism teaches Catholics not to worship statues.......


The Schoolmen discussed the whole question at length. St. Thomas declares what idolatry is in the "Summa Theologica", II-II:94, and explains the use of images in the Catholic Church (II-II:94:2, ad 1Um). He distinguishes between latria and dulia (II-II:103). The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent (Dec., 1543) repeats faithfully the principles of Nicaea II:

[The holy Synod commands] that images of Christ, the Virgin Mother of God, and other saints are to be held and kept especially in churches, that due honour and reverence (debitum honorem et venerationem) are to be paid to them, not that any divinity or power is thought to be in them for the sake of which they may be worshipped, or that anything can be asked of them, or that any trust may be put in images, as was done by the heathen who put their trust in their idols [Psalm 134:15 sqq.], but because the honour shown to them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by kissing, uncovering to, kneeling before images we adore Christ and honour the saints whose likeness they bear (Denzinger, no. 986).​
As an example of contemporary Catholic teaching on this subject one could hardly quote anything better expressed than the "Catechism of Christian Doctrine" used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

  • "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."
  • "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."
  • "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."
  • "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."


We are not to "honor" statues! We are not to honor the dead remains of Catholic saints. We are not to bow down to them. It is plain and simple. Why does anyone want to do what God hates?
 

aspen

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Now that you mention it,


So you agree that your were simply trying to goad me into talking about Catholicism in hopes of getting me banned - well at least you are finally being honest, Bud - sorry it didn't work out for you. So you are you projecting your own dishonesty onto me? Classic.....

For the record, I never denied being Catholic.



We are not to "honor" statues! We are not to honor the dead remains of Catholic saints. We are not to bow down to them. It is plain and simple. Why does anyone want to do what God hates?


Verse?

 

Anastacia

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I gave you verses. Here are some, again.If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?




Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)

It really is clear.






 

aspen

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I gave you verses. Here are some, again.If the bronze snake that Moses had made was broke into pieces because the Israelites had been burning incense to it (see 2 Kings 18:1-4), then why is it okay for the Catholic priests to bow to and incense the crucifix?




Exodus 20: 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

No longer bow down to the work of your hands (see Micah 5:13)

It really is clear.

And yet:

Numbers 21:8
The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”



 

Anastacia

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And yet:

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Numbers 21:8
The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”[/size][/font]


And they did not bow to it. And when the Israelites started burning incense to it.....it was destroyed. The Catholics are commanded to bow to the statues, and the priest is to also bow and incense them.
 

Selene

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Nice thread because I have something to ask about Roman Catholic:

1. Why do they worship statues(idols)?
- I am a Roman Catholic too and I go to church every Sunday and there are statues of God, Jesus and Mary in there, why do they do this when it is clear in the Bible that you shouldn't make those things.


2. Why do they worship Mary?
- Just last week the statue of Virgin Mary came to our hose for a week(now it's gone), we will say the Holy Rossary, 10 Hail Mary, 10 Holy Mary. Why do they worship Mary?


3. Why is it that priests are not allowed to marry?



I actually wanted to change religion but my parents won't probably allow me to.

Hello Jobeliano,
I would be happy to address your questions:

1. Catholics do not worship statues. The Bible says "Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth." (Exodus 20:4). If we were to take this commandment literally, then all of us are guilty of breaking this commandment. The first commandment specifically says "not to make any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. People keep images of their spouses and family. They keep these pictures or images in their homes and wallets. Having these pictures would then be against the first commandment because it specifically says that we are not to make any likeness of anything in earth. So, taken literally, we are then supposed to get rid of all photographs or images of family members and spouses.

Furthermore, in the Bible God commanded Moses to fashion a bronze serpent so that anyone hwo looks at the bronze serpent would be healed (See Numbers 21:8-9). Because God commanded Moses to make a statue of a bronze serpent, then the first commandment of God must mean something much more than statues because God Himself would not go against His own commandments nor allow man to go against it. The first commandment of God is actually speaking of idoltry, and idoltry is not found in the statues. Idoltry is found in the human heart, and only God can see what is in the human heart. The statue of the bronze serpent is not God, and it was not the bronze serpent that healed the Israelites whenever they looked at it. It was God all along who healed them. That bronze serpent was only a sign to help the Israelites by pointing them towards God. They are to worship only God, not the bronze serpent. In the end, when the Israelites started worshipping the bronze serpent, God destroyed it (See 2 Kings 18:4).

As for those statues that you see in Catholic Churches, they are the images of our family. Jesus Christ is our brother. The Apostles are also our brothers, and all the saints who are in Heaven are our brothers. We keep the images of our family in our Churches just as you keep the images of your family in your own home. Do we worship these statues and images of our Heavenly family? No. But we respect them and venerate them. Just as a man would look at the picture of his wife and family in a loving way, so do we look at the images of our Heavenly family in an honorable way. But God is who we worship.

When we bow, it is genuflecting - which is the same kind of bow that Christopher Columbus showed when he bowed before the king and queen of Spain. Genuflecting or bowing in this way does not indicate worship in any way. It indicates "respect." Again, idoltry is not found in the statues or the images. It is found in a person's heart and only God knows a person's heart. So, if a person puts their job first before God, then that person is guilty of idoltry because nothing should come first before God.


2. We do not worship Mary. Jesus was the son of Mary. Jesus was the perfect son who obeyed all the commandments of God. He also obeyed the commandment "thou shalt honor thy mother and father." The Hebrew word for "honor" is "glorify" in English. Jesus followed this commandment just as He followed all commandments: Honor thy mother and father. Jesus glorified His Father, who is God. He also glorified His mother Mary. When Christ honored His mother Mary just as God commended in the Fourth Commandment, does this mean that Christ was worshipping His mother? No, of course not. But He honored her, and we are called to imitate Christ. Since Christ honored His mother Mary, we follow Christ's example. We honor Mary in the same way that He honored His mother. Christ was the perfect example of how one should honor their mothers, and Christ is the example we follow because He is the Way to salvation. Again, God is the only one we worship.

3. Priests are allowed to marry in the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome are allowed to follow the Orthodox-rites and even ordained men who are married. It is only in the Latin-rite Catholic Church that celibacy is a discipline. Celibacy is not a dogma within the Catholic Church. It is a discipline. In the Latin-rite Catholic Churches, celibacy has become a discipline for two reasons: 1) priests want to follow Christ's example of remaining single and being devoted to God than to a wife and family, and 2) priests and nuns want to follow in the things that is worthy to and in heaven as Jesus taught in the following biblical verse:

Luke 20:35 But they that shall be accounted worthy of that world, and of the resurrection from the dead, shall neither be married, nor take wives.

I hope that answers your questions.

In Christ,
Selene
 

aspen

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And they did not bow to it. And when the Israelites started burning incense to it.....it was destroyed. The Catholics are commanded to bow to the statues, and the priest is to also bow and incense them.

Catholics are never taught to bow to a statue or image - we are praying to saints in heaven in front of a statue.

Catholic Christians operate from an Incarnational Principle: they sometimes make use of statues, images, medals, relics, and other objects to call to mind their relationship with the communion of saints of the past. These "religious objects" are used to simply recall to mind the example of a particular saint and to remind us of their nearness to God and their power to intercede for us on earth.

Mk 5:27-29She (the woman with a hemorrhage) had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak. She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured." Immediately her flow of blood dried up.
Acts 5:15Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them.
Acts 19:11-12So extraordinary were the mighty deeds God accomplished at the hands of Paul that when face cloths or aprons that touched his skin were applied to the sick, their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Some uneducated Catholics are confused about the teaching - Jobeliano is living proof of this fact. It is unwise to judge a doctrine by the report of pew-sitters

Look, I have no problem if you disagree with praying in front of statues, but you are misrepresenting the teachings of my church. I could make a solid claim that some Protestants worship the Bible, but I know church leaders do not teach the practice.
 
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