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Featured Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by APAK, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    Rebirth - Salvation and Conversion

    It seems that many folks do not see the rebirth (by God) experience and event in their lives as ONLY the FIRST spiritual life-changing experience. There is a SECOND experience; it is the necessary conversion process (by the saved one) as true believers in Christ.

    Some folks even get this ‘saved’ part wrong. They think they are still BEING SAVED.

    They are saved, period! DONE

    Whether they realize it or not, they ARE NOW BEING CONVERTED, it is the SECOND event that WE do with God. And it is not all about God’s spirit doing all the work of perfection/ conversion without our say in the matter. We can ‘will’ to allow God to increase our faith as the new seed increases in ‘size’ within us. Or we can stay as immature seeds of Christ and cling on to the spiritual basics al our lives without even crawling or stretching our spiritual legs.

    Typically, in short, once one understands Jesus’ work, his words, believed on them genuinely, repentance and baptism occurs with saving faith given by God. God then provides the seed of regeneration in the heart by his spirit. This individual is ‘saved’ and has salvation. They are welded together. THEN the important process of conversion begins.

    This process of conversion to Christ continues throughout our lives. Note that salvation to eternal life is not at stake throughout this life-long process. Salvation assurance is not based on our own efforts or desires or meeting some sort of standard as the heathen believe to stay in a relationship with God. We are already saved and therefore the offered free gift has been received and accepted by us.

    Yes, there are some scripture that seems to indicate the the gift of salvation being taken back by God, although they all can be explained differently, and in the opposing direction. If these handful of scripture in fact proved or were interpreted correctly that salvation was a relative and fleeting goal, then no human can be sure in confidence of their rebirth and spiritual fate and the conversion process becomes meaningless. Paul and others would never have spoken of the process of maturing or converting to perfection. What would be the point?!

    Paul to the Corinthians speaks of this maturing or converting process as a ‘personal’ race (I Corinth 9:24). Paul used this analogy of a race with a single prize to be one by just one person. He is NOT saying this is the case with those that are ‘saved’ that ONLY ONE saved and perfected person will actually be converted and obtain salvation. That would be nonsense and a cruel hoax by God. Paul even says in this non-spiritual race analogy that there is only ONE winner (gaining a corruptible crown) (I Corinth 9:25).

    NO, Paul said to ‘run’ LIKE that actual non-spiritual race, as everyone on the track that is now ‘saved’ and it now being converted at different individual stages to spiritual perfection. Each one will be at a specific maturity or conversion level when they die.

    It is our own race with ourselves with God as we would want to press forward to maturity and become as Christ. Paul is not speaking of having to win this ‘race’ over others. That would make no sense as I just pointed out.

    You see Paul had high standards and expectations for himself in his relationship with God. He realized that it we do not dally around on the (spiritual walk) track we are less likely to stumble and fall, or even wander off the track. We are to be firm with our spiritual goals and stick to them, with conviction. Building up spiritual endurance and staying-power along the way. When Paul speaks of finishing the course or race, it is not the same for everyone. There is NO actual SET spiritual finish line. Paul sees some folks as finishing the race off the track and even wandering off it, although he does not want that to happen as we read into his words. Again, this has nothing to do with losing or regaining eternal life/ salvation or not. That would be another cruel hoax.

    Paul sees himself as finishing ‘dead’ on the race track as a mature follower with a strong character as Christ. I would suspect that Paul’s conversion was over 90 % complete in his lifetime. Others maybe be only 10 per cent completed. Mine today maybe 40-50 percent converted to Christ; I’ve had a few stumbles and off-track quests over time that cost me precious time and spiritual energy with some disciplinary actions from my Father along the way.

    I and all reborn folks still have the SAME Salvation for the next life and beyond even those some stumble and fall more than others, or some just stay as spiritual infants and stop on the track altogether without moving forward - we are all BEING converted and we all have the SAME salvation from God. We are ALL OVERCOMERS and WINNERS just by being on the track to perfection, in Christ.

    Comments of course welcome...

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
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  2. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    That's NOT what the Bible teaches . . .

    The Scriptures teach that we, as Christians, are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
    This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

    However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
    This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

    Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
    This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

    Finally - the Scriptures warn us that we can LOSE our secure position by our OWN doing . . .

    Romans 11:22
    “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
    Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

    Hebrews 10:26-27
    “If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth
    , there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
    This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    2 Peter 2:20-22
    For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
    For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
    Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

    Matt. 5:13
    You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
    This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind, deaf and dumb person . . .

    1 Cor. 9:27
    "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
    Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

    2 Peter 3:17
    Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
    Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

    1 John 2:24
    See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
    This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

    Rev. 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
    God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

    Rev. 22:19
    And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
    How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
     
  3. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    @BreadOfLife ..

    BOL: You apparently clearly read and understand scripture quite differently than myself. Don't be so cocky that you know scripture, you usually are found in error. No different here.

    You say that WE are ALL (Christians) and SAVED already. I ask you a follow-on and a logical question: from what point, and at what time, in your view? From before birth, from birth, from the age of accountability, from a formal ‘confirmation’ ceremony?

    You said that Romans 5:1; Romans 8:24; Ephesians 2:5-8 supports an Initial Salvation and that God gives us the initial grace to believe.”

    Romans 5:1:

    First read the context, Romans 4:20-25 and Romans 5:1

    (Rom 4:20) " but instead, looking to the promise of God, he did not waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God, "
    (Rom 4:21) " and became fully assured that what He had promised, He was able also to perform. "
    (Rom 4:22) Therefore also it was counted to him for righteousness.
    (Rom 4:23) " Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was counted to him; "
    (Rom 4:24) " but for our sake also, to whom it shall be counted, who believe in Him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. "
    (Rom 4:25) " Who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.
    (Rom 5:1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; "

    Roman 4:20 speaks about Abraham under law. He was credited with righteousness and yes salvation, for life, because of his unwavering belief in the promises of God. We, under grace today also become credited with righteousness because of our belief to faith in the promises of God. And in verse 4: 24 our belief is for Jesus Christ, the perfect sacrifice and atoning agent for our sins. In verse 4:25 it also stated that we as saved people are also justified because of God’s work, declaring the sinner righteous because of Christ’s spirit – forever! We do not lose it. This scripture area does not speak to any loss of saving faith.

    Roman 5:1 restated the justification and faith as Abraham and those under grace then and for today. This faith results in salvation in a ‘saving’ event. Abraham was never born as a saved person. Abraham was saved at a specific point in his life as any child of God today. And I’m sure Abraham’s faith was not consistently ‘strong’ always (he was not perfect, he was BEING converted as those in Christ today) and still his salvation was assured as any child of God today.

    Romans 8:24 refer to the same saving faith as in Romans 5:1

    (Rom 8:24) For in hope were we saved; but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

    Ephesians 2:5-8

    (Eph 2:1) You once were dead in the trespasses and sins
    (Eph 2:2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, according to the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience.
    (Eph 2:3) Among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by our natural condition destined to be children of God’s wrath, even as the others.
    (Eph 2:4) But God, being rich in mercy, for the sake of His great love with which He loved us,
    (Eph 2:5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved!),
    (Eph 2:6) and raised us up with him; and in Christ Jesus, has made us sit with him in the heavens.
    (Eph 2:7) His intention was that throughout the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    (Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
    (Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
    (Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them.

    Ephesians Chapter 2 speaks of baptism in Christ and salvation as an event not a life-long process.

    Verses 4- 6 Speaks of the baptism in Christ

    Verse 8 speaks of the essence of attaining salvation by God’s grace and faith as a gift from God.

    Verse 10 speaks of the post-salvation-carnal state, the ongoing CONVERSION process, BEING converted ..”the good works we should walk in”…as per Paul’s letter to the Corinthians and Philippians as eluded to in this OP.

    I clearly disagree with you BOL on your initial salvation and so-called initial grace to believe, concept that I cannot find in scripture for understanding.

    I do understand however that with your thinking, you personally must have many (re)salvation events in your life and many injections of grace from God to be resaved, to rebelieve to gain a (re)saving faith again and again. While a chilling life to be in. I'm glad I'm not you.

    This response is getting to long. I will stop here.

    I just want to say that your next set of verses I just scanned, supporting your life-long salvation process theory do not help your cause at all.

    As you said “However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

    I would really take the time revisit them.

    Here’s a start, reexamine Phil 2:12 and really understand what WORKING OUT your salvation as Paul really meant and in CONTEXT. Hint, it does not mean to save one’s salvation from loss….

    Bless you,



    APAK
     
  4. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    @BreadOfLife ..ok let me do something I've never asked you to do in your reply. You need to be called out once in a while. It keeps us honest so BS is kept to a minimum.

    Because you keep blasting verses that you know really nothing about in any deep thought in your responses to others and myself I will challenge you to provide me with your understanding of Phil 2:12, as you stated above. A commentary if you.

    Yes it is a challenge, so do your best. Show me what you really think of Philippians 2:12. in at least one paragraph.

    Bless you,


    APAK
     
  5. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    If you keep reading the verses that follow, it pretty much speaks for itself.
    Paul is being pretty explicit here in the language he uses:

    Phil. 2:12-16
    So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

    For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

    Do everything without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like lights in the world, as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.

    The word Paul uses for "Work" here is katergazomai. The root word ergon means "work" and is where we get the words ergonomic and energy.

    This is talking about ONGOING work - from God AND from us through obedience.
    Without obedience, you cannot have true faith.
     
  6. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    Work out your salvation, not work for.
     
  7. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WRONG.

    First of all - you and I absolutely read Scripture differently. I read it through the eyes of the God-given authority of His Church. YOU read it through your own point of view.
    In other words, I merely parrot His Church's position. It has nothing to do with cockiness.

    Secondly - NOWHERE does Scripture say that we are saved "Forever". As a matter of fact - Scripture warns us that we can LOSE our secure position with God by our OWN doing (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

    What I showed you in my last post was that Scripture teaches that Salvation is NOT a slam dunk, one time event - but a PROCESS.

    Finally - attaining salvation through Baptism does not "guarantee" that you will NOT lose it.
    It simply means that you are saved and will continue to be saved IF you remain faithful.

    If Scripture teaches us anything - it is that Salvation is CONDITIONAL on OUR cooperation.
     
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  8. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    Jhn 5:36-40 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This is FALSE. Just one passage of Scripture should suffice.

    ROMANS 8
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  10. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    But you have. In your system, God has a separate love for His family in heaven, and a separate love for His family on earth. The reformulators built a kind of "Berlin Wall" between heaven and earth, turning the family of God into departments.

    Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

    1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Peter teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

    Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

    1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

    Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

    Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

    Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 – God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

    2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

    Matt. 18:14 – Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God’s image and likeness.

    SALVATION - Scripture Catholic
     
  11. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    BOL: Thank you for you response.

    Your last two sentences are what I consider informative for Phil 2:12-16. The last statement of obedience to true faith I gather is the basis for the maintenance of your salvation. This is not what the verses speak about. It is a wrong concept and conclusion that is not inferred or spoken of in these verses by Paul.

    Paul never says we work for, to gain or hope to gain salvation throughout our lives. Paul does say we mature the salvation we have already. We work OUT or work THROUGH, or OUT work this salvation to maturity, to ‘full’ conversion. It results in mature spiritual fruits and more mature gifts of the spirit. We become more and more like Christ’s spirit within us.

    What is spoken of and inferred and understood by the context is that Paul is speaking to those that are ‘saved’ and in a congregation. Paul is speaking of maintaining unity and not salvation at all. And to maintain unity Paul is telling them to consider what God has already given them; salvation. In verse 2 Paul is telling them to complete and finish the on-going work in ourselves because God offered them the gift of salvation and they accepted it. Now without grumbling and fussing or question, get along with each other and continue each other’s life knowing they have and assured salvation.

    Eventhough God did the initial work of regeneration to salvation, we now must honor and mature it, and yes that would be considered in obedient (allowing our will to become God’s will) in cooperation with God and his help to perfection. We are not to stay as immature believers, who are guaranteed salvation for the rest of our lives and then just ‘sit’ around, and then not get along with other believers. We should not take for granted that our salvation is completed and then grumble and fuss when God calls us to do something about its initial carnal state to maturity; when God even uses other believers in the congregation to light a fire under us.

    This is the goal, to be fully converted as I spoke of in the OP. To walk in the spirit and mature the work that God already started in each person, as God is still doing his work inside us, and until each person’s salvation is fully realized beyond death with new bodies and eternal life. Doing it with one mind (the mind of Christ) and in love (Phil 2:2,5)

    Short version: Allow our salvation we possess to overcome our lives, and we do this by submitting our will to God’s will. Unfortunately, it is not automatic.

    There is working to be done, and not out of our own self-will or desire of course (Phil 2:3), that leads to selfish works as so many folks begin to do and then doubt their own irreversible salvation. Denominations get born based on these doubts and errors when people begin to turn inwards to their own minds and wills which cannot be trusted.

    (Php 2:2) make my joy full by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
    (Php 2:3) Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself;
    (Php 2:4) each of you not looking to his own things, but each of you to the things of others.
    (Php 2:5) Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.
    (Php 2:12) So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    (Php 2:13) For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure.
    (Php 2:14) Do all things without complaining and questionings,
    (Php 2:15) that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world,
    (Php 2:16) holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or laboured in vain.
    (Php 2:17) Yes, and if I am poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.
    (Php 2:18) And in the same manner you also should be glad and rejoice with me. (ALL NEV)


    Bless you,



    APAK
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    No - just "one" passage of Scripture is cherry-picking.
    Scripture must be read in context with ALL of the rest.

    God "foreknows" and "predestines" based on OUR choices and OUR cooperation or lack thereof.
    He doesn't MAKE those choices for us - not does He coerce us to have faith.

    As for your complete misunderstanding of Romans 8 - while it is true that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God - WE can separate ourselves from Him by our OWN doing (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

    Context is understanding these passages alongside the ones YOU presented . . .
     
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  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Amen.

    However - NONE of this refutes anything I said.
    NONE of it makes the claim that salvation is a one-time event.
    NONE of it states that we are saved "forever" once we come to the Lord.

    Try again . . .
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, one of the tragedies of Protestantism is the man-made invention that once we are born again - we have pretty much jumped on a slide that whisks us right off to Heaven - and there is NOTHING we can do about it. this is hogwash of the FIRST order - and extremely unbiblical.

    What most of you fail to understand is that true faith is not simply "believing" in Christ. TRUE faith is belief + obedience. Once you have one WITHOUT the other - you no longer have true faith (James 2:14-26).

    The Scriptures teach us over and over again that faith can be LOST - just as our security can be lost (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).
     
  15. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    I look at what I am told about Abraham in the Bible in how his being reckoned righteous, justified was a process (Genesis 12:1-4 > Gen 22:12) and not something that happened at one instant in time. Abraham was not reckoned righteous, justified at one instance by having faith only for he did not have faith only.
     
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  16. APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

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    BOL: Remember these two verses out of scripture?

    (Rom 6:22) " But now being made free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit unto holiness- and the result is eternal life. "
    (Rom 6:23) " For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

    They apply to me, how about you?

    I am reborn and thus a Christian today, how about you BOL?

    Technically I was a Catholic with no active participation in it when I came to know God through Jesus Christ. It is not a man-made invention at all. It is not even a Protestant thing, it is a scriptural thing that does not respect any religious institution.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And those cherry-picked verses by themselves are perfect examples of OSAS.
    HOWEVER, we are supposed to take ALL Scripture in context and NOT cherry-pick because it leads to false doctrines like OSAS, Sola Scriptura, Solda Fide and the like.

    Neither of the verses you posted by themselves has ANYTHING to do with OSAS because they don't show all of the other verses that teach us about the fact that salvation is conditional (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

    As for your question - I was reborn at Baptism, as Jesus prescribed (John 3:5).
     
  18. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    I would say the Conversion IS Accomplished;
    The man MADE WHOLLY WHOLE.
    (Body, Soul, Spirit)....

    I would say the WALK IN THE SPIRIT, is the Journey Experience, while a man remains on Earth, as it is now. (Perhaps we have concluded the same, but with different words).

    God Bless,
    Taken
     
  19. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    BOL, John 5 is describing Jesus Christ himself as the gate and the door to eternal life, and we know by the passages below that we receive eternal life through BELIEF.

    How can believers never hear his voice nor see his form? :rolleyes:

    Jhn 5:36-40 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    Jhn 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

    Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

    Jhn 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    Jhn 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    Jhn 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

    Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

    1Ti 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

    1 Jhn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    God bless
     
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  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    No. Salvation IS NOT a lifelong PROCESS.
    Salvation IS an ACT OF the Lord that SAVES a man UNTO the Lord.

    No. Sanctification IS NOT Ongoing pertaining to ONE INDIVIDUAL man.
    Sanctification IS an ACT OF the Lord that CLEANSES a mans natural body UNTO the Lord.



    Gods KINDNESS does not SAVE a man.



    KNOWLEDGE does not SAVE a man.



    KNOWLEDGE does not SAVE a man.



    BEING an EXAMPLE, Speaking the Word of God, and then STOPPING does not SAVE a man.



    Being a teacher, while being a poor example does not SAVE a man.



    Being Warned of the consequences of NOT being IN Christ does not SAVE a man.



    Being Informed that remaining in following the Lord is paramount, is not being Saved.



    Being informed a man IN Christ shall remain forever IN His BOOK of Life is not being Saved.

    Being informed Saved men can Receive ADDITIONAL gifts IN Christ IN His Holy City, is not being Saved.

    Being SAVED, BORN AGAIN, SANCTIFIED, CLEANSED, JUSTIFIED, FOREVER..............
    IS ACCOMPLISHED, WHEN a man BELIEVES IN HIS HEART, IN thee Lord God Almighty, AND, such man ELECTS/CHOOSES "TO" "GIVE" His LIFE TO THE Lord.

    IF and WHEN a man .....
    1) GOES TO THE DOOR....who IS Jesus
    2) ENTERS the DOOR.......who IS Christ
    3) THEN and ONLY then is the man savED

    Knowledge, believing, learning, trying, teaching, following, blah, blah......

    "ONLY" are measures that "LEAD" a man "TO" the DOOR.

    THEY ARE NOT WHAT SAVES THE MAN, as you repeatedly attempt to teach.

    Men can WANDER, guess, wonder, believe, not believe, try, blah, blah.....and FAIL.

    However IF AND WHEN a man ENTERS THROUGH CHRIST JESUS.......IT IS ONCE and FOREVER the man IS KEPT 'IN" Christ.....
    BY;

    THE POWER OF CHRIST, that The Man elected to enter THROUGH and the Lord Keeps that man FOREVER.

    You teach EVERYTHING that LEADS to the Door.....IS a man receiving Salvation...

    That is false.

    You teach A man WHO HAS ENTERED through the Door.....Can Then reject Christ....

    That is false.

    Rejection of Christ Jesus ABSOLUTELY and DOES happen......BEFORE a man ENTERS through the Door.

    Once the man HAS ENTERED....
    NO ONE....can PULL that man BACK out the door.
     
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