Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

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Bible Highlighter

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Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

Romans 4:2 says:
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

James 2:24 says:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Romans 4:2 implies that we are not justified by works before God.
Yet, James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not faith alone.

Romans 5:1 makes it clear we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1 says:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

So what about Romans 4:2 and James 2:24?
Well, I believe Romans 4:2 is referring to how one may seek to be falsely justified by works ALONE without God’s grace through faith (a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation).

I say this because Paul asks in Romans 3:1, “what profit is there of circumcision?”
Why would Paul say this?

Well, at the Jerusalem council, the apostles addressed the problem that the Gentile Christians faced involving certain Jews who tried to convince them to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul also said:

Galatians 5:2
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

It wasn’t that circumcision was exactly wrong because Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue was whether one was being circumcised for the purpose of salvation (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1). For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, they would be making a Law or work the basis for their salvation and not God’s grace through faith in the Savior (which is a process of salvation without the deeds of the law).

This is why Romans 4:9-12 makes a point about when was faith reckoned for righteousness. Was this faith reckoned for righteousness in circumcision or uncircumcision? The point here is that we are first saved by God’s grace and faith is reckoned for righteousness and not by circumcision.

James 2:24 is not referring to being justified by works ALONE without faith or without God’s grace. James 2:24 is describing being justified by works after a believer already has been justified or saved by God’s grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James 2:24 is showing us what happens AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. James 2:24 is talking about the Sanctification Process that follows being saved by God’s grace through faith. Romans 4:2 is condemning the idea of being justified by Works ALONE (with no grace or faith in being initially saved). Paul mentions this in Romans 4:2 because of the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
 
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amigo de christo

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James knew it was TRUE FAITH that saved us . HE just knew as did pual that faith without works is dead .
Paul even told the church HE who PROVIDES not for his own and specially those of his own household , A DOING Action
HAS DENIED THE FAITH and is worse than an infidel . SEE they both knew it was TRUE FAITH IN JESUS that does save
its just they both knew many can lip the name and yet walk in darkness and thus THEY AINT SAVED at all .
True faith has works cause it is the SPIRIT that indwells the BELIEVER and He works in us both the WILL and ABILITY TO DO .
Yep . Now let all that has breath praise and thank the glorious LORD .
 

mailmandan

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We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. We need to also remember that "faith only" per James = "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains "alone" - "barren of works" (James 2:14) which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
 

Bible Highlighter

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We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. We need to also remember that "faith only" per James = "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains "alone" - "barren of works" (James 2:14) which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Catholics, and the Church of Christ may falsely think that James is referring to a universal truth in James 2:24 whereby works would be included the Initial act of being accounted righteousness. But this is where I disagree with them strongly. The initial act of being accounted righteousness is by faith (belief) in Jesus Christ as the Savior, and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). The initial act of being accounted righteous (Which is conditional) is salvation by God’s grace through faith. It is a process of salvation without works because it is based upon God’s grace and mercy and nothing major that we did whereby we can boast about it.

In James chapter 2: James is referring to what happens after one is saved by God’s grace. This is true. But James 2:24 uses the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse (Which you seem to ignore).

This means that we are justified by a belief alone in the Savior just as Romans 5:1 says. No works involved in this Initial act of salvation.
But after we are saved by God’s grace (in our initial act of salvation by faith), we will do works, and James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?

Let me repeat this here so it sinks in.

Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?

Quick Side Note on Romans 4:2:

Romans 4:2
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

Romans 4:2 is condemning Works ALONE Salvationism that does not include being saved by God’s grace without works (Which is a person’s initial act of God accounting a person righteous). However, Romans 4:2 is not in contradiction of James 2:24 that says we are justified by works because it is the secondary act in being justified before God (that is complimentary to being saved by God’s grace). For Titus 2:11-12 basically says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
 
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mailmandan

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Catholics, and the Church of Christ may falsely think that James is referring to a universal truth in James 2:24 whereby works would be included the Initial act of being accounted righteousness. But this is where I disagree with them strongly. The initial act of being accounted righteousness is by faith (belief) in Jesus Christ as the Savior, and believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day). The initial act of being accounted righteous (Which is conditional) is salvation by God’s grace through faith. It is a process of salvation without works because it is based upon God’s grace and mercy and nothing major that we did whereby we can boast about it.
I disagree with Catholics and the Church of Christ strongly as well who both interpret James 2:24 this way - "You see then that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only." You may not teach that we are "initially" saved by works - "type 1 works salvation" but you still teach that we are "ultimately" saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" which still leaves room for boasting. You try to sneak works "into" the back door of salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) This is what I call trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe doesn't fit. (Romans 4:2-6)

In James chapter 2: James is referring to what happens after one is saved by God’s grace. This is true. But James 2:24 uses the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse (Which you seem to ignore).
How many times have I explained to you that I am not ignoring that and unlike you, I am also not ignoring that "faith only" per James is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith and unlike you, I am also not not ignoring the fact that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and evidence the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Simple! Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

This means that we are justified by a belief alone in the Savior just as Romans 5:1 says. No works involved in this Initial act of salvation.
Works are not involved in initial or final salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

But after we are saved by God’s grace (in our initial act of salvation by faith), we will do works, and James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:24) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?

Let me repeat this here so it sinks in.
Yes, BUT James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith in James 2:14 and in James 2:24 which is what he means by (faith only) so what James is saying is that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and NOT by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." We are not accounted as righteous/saved by works. Period. (Romans 4:2-6) Now let that sink in.

Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James use the same word “justified” for both faith and works in James 2:24?
Does not James describe an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" in James 2:14 and James 2:24? Since James is not describing genuine saving faith in Christ here and since Paul already made it crystal clear that Abraham was not justified/accounted as righteous by works in Romans 4:2-3, you have created a contradiction in scripture. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *So much for being accounted as righteous by works.

Quick Side Note on Romans 4:2:

Romans 4:2
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

Romans 4:2 is condemning Works ALONE Salvationism that does not include being saved by God’s grace without works (Which is a person’s initial act of God accounting a person righteous).
After Paul said if Abraham was justified by works (with no implication of works alone) he went on to say that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Paul clearly stated that God imputes righteousness by faith apart from works. He was not merely talking about works alone salvation, but a mixture of faith and works salvation. I have NEVER run across a "professing" Christian who claims to be saved by works alone with no faith. It's ALWAYS a "mixture" of faith and works.

However, Romans 4:2 is not in contradiction of James 2:24 that says we are justified by works because it is the secondary act in being justified before God (that is complimentary to being saved by God’s grace).
Your misinterpretation of James 2:24 - "justified/accounted as righteous by works" as a secondary act is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3 and equates to "type 2 works salvation." It blows my mind that you just can't see this! It's so obvious.

For Titus 2:11-12 basically says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.
In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. This has nothing to do with "type 2 works salvation."
 
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Eternally Grateful

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We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. We need to also remember that "faith only" per James = "empty profession of faith/dead faith" that remains "alone" - "barren of works" (James 2:14) which is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
sadly, they fail to realise.

James asked the question. What does it profit (gain or help) a person if they CLAIM to have faith....

he never once said they had faith, He called their claimed faith lifeless. dead. non existent.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith. If there is no faith, there is no salvation.

In the same breath, paul said we (those saved) were created for good works..

James is basically asking people to inspect their own faith. Is your faith real or dead.

He did not write those words for legalists to try to inspect the works of others to determine if they are saved or not.
 

Robert Gwin

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Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

Romans 4:2 says:
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

James 2:24 says:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Romans 4:2 implies that we are not justified by works before God.
Yet, James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not faith alone.

Romans 5:1 makes it clear we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1 says:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

So what about Romans 4:2 and James 2:24?
Well, I believe Romans 4:2 is referring to how one may seek to be falsely justified by works ALONE without God’s grace through faith (a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation).

I say this because Paul asks in Romans 3:1, “what profit is there of circumcision?”
Why would Paul say this?

Well, at the Jerusalem council, the apostles addressed the problem that the Gentile Christians faced involving certain Jews who tried to convince them to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul also said:

Galatians 5:2
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

It wasn’t that circumcision was exactly wrong because Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue was whether one was being circumcised for the purpose of salvation (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1). For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, they would be making a Law or work the basis for their salvation and not God’s grace through faith in the Savior (which is a process of salvation without the deeds of the law).

This is why Romans 4:9-12 makes a point about when was faith reckoned for righteousness. Was this faith reckoned for righteousness in circumcision or uncircumcision? The point here is that we are first saved by God’s grace and faith is reckoned for righteousness and not by circumcision.

James 2:24 is not referring to being justified by works ALONE without faith or without God’s grace. James 2:24 is describing being justified by works after a believer already has been justified or saved by God’s grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James 2:24 is showing us what happens AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. James 2:24 is talking about the Sanctification Process that follows being saved by God’s grace through faith. Romans 4:2 is condemning the idea of being justified by Works ALONE (with no grace or faith in being initially saved). Paul mentions this in Romans 4:2 because of the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

That is why you have to take the Bible as a whole, as a single verse is not complete. My dad once stated that someone with Bible knowledge can make it say what they want it to say, I said true, but most people who have Bible knowledge will admit that it doesn't contradict itself, so if it seemingly does, then it is understanding that is at flaw. James defined it beautifully as many were indicating that no works is required for salvation, which is true, but if one is capable and chooses to bury his talent in the sand, they will be rejected when the master returns, if you know what I mean.
(Matthew 25:24-27) . . .“Finally the slave who had received the one talent came forward and said: ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my coming I would have received it back with interest.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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So what about Romans 4:2 and James 2:24?
Well, I believe Romans 4:2 is referring to how one may seek to be falsely justified by works ALONE without God’s grace through faith (a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation).
well if this is true, we may as well throw all of Pauls writings out. Because paul continually taught that it is by grace we have been saved not by works period.. Even going so far as to say it is not even our works of righteousness which save us but Gods mercy (titus 3: 5)
 

Bible Highlighter

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I disagree with Catholics and the Church of Christ strongly as well who both interpret James 2:24 this way - "You see then that a man is justified/saved by works, and not by faith only." You may not teach that we are "initially" saved by works - "type 1 works salvation" but you still teach that we are "ultimately" saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" which still leaves room for boating.

You mean boasting and not boating. Again, we have been over this before. There is no boasting in oneself but there is only boasting in God if one believes Scripture in that God does the good work through the believer (John 15:5) (Philippians 2:13).

You said:
You try to sneak works "into" the back door of salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) This is what I call trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe doesn't fit. (Romans 4:2-6)

This is your carnal thinking and wording that does not align with Scripture.
In fact, I would rather be falsely accused in believing in Works Salvation (When in reality I believe that Christians are saved by both God’s grace, and Sanctification) than to believe what you believe. You believe in something far worse than Works Salvation, and that is a sin and still be saved type of belief. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Which is what your doctrine allows for).
No works? Not a problem? You are saved by faith alone. Oh wait, but you need to have works to show a genuine saving faith and so it is not by faith alone and so your false belief of faith alone (is not really faith alone) and it even contradicts itself (And you are simply unable to see it). Sin in your life? No need to worry. You falsely believe you are a slave to sin in this life according to 1 John 1:8. Yet, Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Yet even more Scripture verses you don’t believe.

You said:
How many times have I explained to you that I am not ignoring that and unlike you, I am also not ignoring that "faith only" per James is an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not genuine faith and unlike you, I am also not not ignoring the fact that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Yes. You are ignoring that the word “justified” is salvific in James 2:24. You interpret the word “justified” differently when you approach the word “works” in James 2:24 (versus when you see the word “justified” in relation to faith like in Romans 5:1 - you then change your tune and see it as salvific). Also, if you believe James is saying there is no works, they are not saved by faith initially then you are saying works are required for salvation because you are basically saying you believe no works means a person did not have an initial saving faith to begin with. So works are required. If works do not justify as faith justifies then you don’t need any good works at all to be saved.

You said:
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and evidence the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Simple! Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21)

This again is your confusion. The same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24. If James is not referring to how the word “justified” is not salvific then why does he relate that same word to faith (i.e. faith alone)? Again, I ask you: Is there a kind of faith that relates to justification that does not save? That is how you must interpret this. But of course you are ignoring that the same word “justified” is used for both faith and works in James 2:24.

You said:
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You are using a religious dictionary whereby they are not unbiased to their own theology or beliefs of what they think the Bible should say. But again this does not help you in James 2:24 because if we are to take this interpretation in James 2:24, it would mean that justification by faith is not salvific in Romans 5:1 because James 2:24 uses the same word “justified” for both faith and works in the same verse.

You said:
Works are not involved in initial or final salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

So then you believe that a genuine saving faith can have no works later on the rest of their life, and still be saved?

You said:
We are justified (shown to be righteous) by works (James 2:24) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Sorry, it’s not perfect harmony. It’s a contradiction. You are backhandedly implying that a saving faith that does not produce works shows that such a person was not saved to begin with (Which means works are required as a part of the salvation equation). If you wanted to be consistent with your theology here, you would say that no works of any kind need to be present later in a believer’s life and yet they are still saved by a belief alone in Jesus. This would truly be salvation without works.

You said:
Yes, BUT James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith in James 2:14 and in James 2:24 which is what he means by (faith only) so what James is saying is that we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works and NOT by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." We are not accounted as righteous/saved by works. Period. (Romans 4:2-6) Now let that sink in.

Does not James describe an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works" in James 2:14 and James 2:24? Since James is not describing genuine saving faith in Christ here and since Paul already made it crystal clear that Abraham was not justified/accounted as righteous by works in Romans 4:2-3, you have created a contradiction in scripture. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *So much for being accounted as righteous by works.

Yes, and I believe Romans 4:2-3 just fine. It is talking about the Initial Act of salvation or the imputation of Christ. You fail to understand there is a secondary imputation of Christ’s sacrifice. You can find it in 1 John 1:7 but I am sure you will deny it like you do the word “justified” relating to both faith and works in James 2:24.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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After Paul said if Abraham was justified by works (with no implication of works alone) he went on to say that Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Paul clearly stated that God imputes righteousness by faith apart from works. He was not merely talking about works alone salvation, but a mixture of faith and works salvation. I have NEVER run across a "professing" Christian who claims to be saved by works alone with no faith. It's ALWAYS a "mixture" of faith and works.

Paul was implying that it was works alone because he brought up the problem of circumcision of the Jews many times (Romans 3:1) (Galatians 2:3) (Galatians 5:2) which related to the Jerusalem council event whereby the council told us about how Gentile Christians were being deceived by a certain sect of Jews who wanted them to be circumcised to be saved and to keep the law of Moses (the 613) (i.e. the Old Law). For if a person thought they had to be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making Works ALONE the entrance gate and basis of their salvation (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). This is what plays into what Paul is talking about in Romans 4, but you are simply unable to see it. For why would Paul bring up circumcision in Romans 4:9-12?

You said:
Your misinterpretation of James 2:24 - "justified/accounted as righteous by works" as a secondary act is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3 and equates to "type 2 works salvation." It blows my mind that you just can't see this! It's so obvious.

In Romans 4:2-3: Paul is not referring to an ongoing state of what happens to a believer later but he is referring to how they first get saved.

In fact, here is biblical proof by even the apostle Paul that holy actions are required later as a part of the salvation process.

Titus 1:16 says:
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

If works are not required for salvation then a person can never deny God by a being reprobate unto every good work.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

This play in harmony with what James says:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Your doctrine is not in line with godliness because you believe 1 John 1:8 is an excuse to remain in sin on some level the rest of your life here on Earth. The context of 1 John 1:8 does not support the idea that we must sin again. In fact, John says to “sin not” in 1 John 2:1.

There are other verses by Paul that suggest you must be holy as a part of salvation, as well.

#1. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#2. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#3. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22). Note: How does Jesus define how we are to love Him? Well, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

#4. “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

#5. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#6. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#7. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#8. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

#9. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#10. “…if we deny him, he also will deny us:” (2 Timothy 2:12).

You said:
In Titus 2:11-12, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men" (yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. This has nothing to do with "type 2 works salvation."

That’s because there is no such thing as Type 2 Works Salvation. It’s an invention of your own mind to justify your sin and still be saved doctrine (that justifies sin and evil). Titus 2:11-12 is dealing with refuting your false belief here. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness (Which is something your false belief does not do). You say you will always sin this side of Heaven. Yet, that is not what Titus 2:11-12 teaches. God’s grace teaches us to live godly and righteously in this present world, and not being a slave to sin as you falsely teach.
 
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Ziggy

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Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Before there was cicumcision, there was belief.
Circumcision was the outward manifestation of Abraham's faith. It was a sign for future generations to keep the faith of Abraham.
But they left off faith and kept the works of circumcision.
Therefore, works without faith is dead.

Now there are works and there are works. Just like their are laws and there are laws.
The problem is when we try to mesh these all together under one umbrella.

Jesus came to do the works his Father sent him to do.
Jhn 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

And then there are works that the disciples were to go out and do.

Jhn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Jhn 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
Jhn 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
Jhn 4:37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
Jhn 4:38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

There were works that were believed to give one salvation. To save us from our sins.
We could not perform those works, which is reconciliation.
Our sins kept us from entering in and asking for pardon.
Only Jesus could do that work and make a door open for us.

But that wasn't the end of the story.
Then there is the great commission to go into all the world and preach that man has been reconciled to God through the blood of his son.
And that repentance was required, and to seek him, and to turn from our own works and follow him.
But in order to do the works which Jesus gave us to do, one must first be like Abraham and believe and have faith.
Otherwise what good is preaching if you don't believe in what your saying?

Circumcision alone will not save you. doing good works like helping the poor and feeding the hungry will not save you.
First you must believe and have faith, then the works that you do will be rewarded.

Jesus finished the work he was sent to do, and that is to make a way for us to be reconciled to God.
He also brought many gifts with him while he was on the earth.
He brought Truth, Faith, Hope, Joy, Love, Goodness, Kindness...
All of these gifts he has given to those that believe and have faith and do the works that he gave us to do.
Not for salvation sake, but that our rewards for doing so would not be unfruitful.

And these works will be fruitful and multiply when they are founded on belief and faith in the Lord.

that's how I understand it.
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Bible Highlighter

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doing good works like helping the poor and feeding the hungry will not save you.

If that is all a person does... then yes. This work alone will not save them. A person first needs to be saved by God's grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ and in believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But after they are saved by God's grace, I believe that the Bible does teach that the believer needs to help the poor in this life or they are not saved. Try rereading Matthew 25:31-46.

This is why the Bible teaches there is two aspects of salvation.
The first is God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The second aspect of salvation is Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy and godly life (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
A person has to rightly divide.
 
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Ziggy

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If that is all a person does... then yes. This work alone will not save them. A person first needs to be saved by God's grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ and in believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But after they are saved by God's grace, I believe that the Bible does teach that the believer needs to help the poor in this life or they are not saved. Try rereading Matthew 25:31-46.

This is why the Bible teaches there is two aspects of salvation.
The first is God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The second aspect of salvation is Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy and godly life (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
A person has to rightly divide.
I would agree, both physically and spiritually.
Sometimes being "poor" isn't always a material state of being.
Most times "poor" is in the spirit, such as turning a frown into a smile. Giving hope when there is despair.
Giving comfort when someone is in sorrow.

Reminds me of a song I know:


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Bible Highlighter

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well if this is true, we may as well throw all of Pauls writings out. Because paul continually taught that it is by grace we have been saved not by works period.. Even going so far as to say it is not even our works of righteousness which save us but Gods mercy (titus 3: 5)

Paul did teach about being saved by God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is the 1st aspect of salvation.
However, there is a secondary aspect of salvation that Paul even taught (Which is being saved by the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13).

In fact, Paul believed that you must live holy as a part of salvation (After we are initially saved by God's grace).

For example:

Titus 1:16 says:
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

If works are not required for salvation then a person can never deny God by a being reprobate unto every good work.

1 Timothy 6:3-4 says:
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

This play in harmony with what James says:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Your doctrine is not in line with godliness because you believe 1 John 1:8 is an excuse to remain in sin on some level the rest of your life here on Earth. The context of 1 John 1:8 does not support the idea that we must sin again. In fact, John says to “sin not” in 1 John 2:1.

There are other verses by Paul that suggest you must be holy as a part of salvation, as well.

#1. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#2. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#3. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22). Note: How does Jesus define how we are to love Him? Well, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).

#4. “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

#5. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

#6. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

#7. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#8. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

#9. “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” (1 Timothy 5:8).

#10. “…if we deny him, he also will deny us:” (2 Timothy 2:12).
 

Eternally Grateful

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Paul did teach about being saved by God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is the 1st aspect of salvation.
However, there is a secondary aspect of salvation that Paul even taught (Which is being saved by the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit to live a holy life - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and Romans 8:13).
no sir.

Justification is the act of salvation

Sanctification is the result of salvation.

Glorification is the end result of salvation (when our positional sanctification (justified) and conditional sanctification match.

God gave us a requirment to be holy. it is called being perfect.

No one, Not you, Not me, Not anyone, is perfect here on earth. We are seen as perfect by God (justification) but this is based on redemption (the blood of Christ) not our own perfection.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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no sir.

Justification is the act of salvation

Sanctification is the result of salvation.

Glorification is the end result of salvation (when our positional sanctification (justified) and conditional sanctification match.

God gave us a requirment to be holy. it is called being perfect.

No one, Not you, Not me, Not anyone, is perfect here on earth. We are seen as perfect by God (justification) but this is based on redemption (the blood of Christ) not our own perfection.

Please actually carefully read each of the verses I put forth to you that refutes your false belief and explain them instead of repeating blindingly the slop that theologians of our day have fed you. For if your belief is biblical, you should have no trouble defending your belief with Scripture. But I just don’t see you doing that.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Reconciling Romans 4:2 with James 2:24

Romans 4:2 says:
“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

James 2:24 says:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

Romans 4:2 implies that we are not justified by works before God.
Yet, James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not faith alone.

Romans 5:1 makes it clear we are justified by faith.

Romans 5:1 says:
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

So what about Romans 4:2 and James 2:24?
Well, I believe Romans 4:2 is referring to how one may seek to be falsely justified by works ALONE without God’s grace through faith (a belief in Jesus as the Savior, and believing the gospel message mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 for salvation).

I say this because Paul asks in Romans 3:1, “what profit is there of circumcision?”
Why would Paul say this?

Well, at the Jerusalem council, the apostles addressed the problem that the Gentile Christians faced involving certain Jews who tried to convince them to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Acts of the Apostles 15:1
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:5
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts of the Apostles 15:24
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

This is why Paul also said:

Galatians 5:2
“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

It wasn’t that circumcision was exactly wrong because Paul had Timothy circumcised (Acts of the Apostles 16:3). The issue was whether one was being circumcised for the purpose of salvation (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1). For if a person thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved, they would be making a Law or work the basis for their salvation and not God’s grace through faith in the Savior (which is a process of salvation without the deeds of the law).

This is why Romans 4:9-12 makes a point about when was faith reckoned for righteousness. Was this faith reckoned for righteousness in circumcision or uncircumcision? The point here is that we are first saved by God’s grace and faith is reckoned for righteousness and not by circumcision.

James 2:24 is not referring to being justified by works ALONE without faith or without God’s grace. James 2:24 is describing being justified by works after a believer already has been justified or saved by God’s grace through faith in the Savior Jesus Christ. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James 2:24 is showing us what happens AFTER we are saved by God’s grace. James 2:24 is talking about the Sanctification Process that follows being saved by God’s grace through faith. Romans 4:2 is condemning the idea of being justified by Works ALONE (with no grace or faith in being initially saved). Paul mentions this in Romans 4:2 because of the heresy of those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (See again: Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

Obedience in something that the True God YHWH has always required from his servants. So the True God YHWH wants his servants to love him so much that they have faith that the True God YHWH knows what's in the best interests(good) of what he created and what's not in the best interests(evil) of what he created. So persons of faith in the True God YHWH will love Jehovah their God with your their whole heart and with their whole soul and with their whole mind, as Matthew 22:37 tells them to. They also will love their neighbor as themselves. So a true servant of the true God YHWH will not worship false Gods, steal, murder, bear false witness, etc because of their love for the true God YHWH only and not to try to save themselves because a person of faith in the True God YHWH has faith that the True God YHWH know what's best in how his creation should live.

At James chapter 2 regarding Abraham the scriptures show that Abraham was shown to be a man of faith because Abraham obeyed God when God told him to sacrifice his son Isaac. When God saw that Abraham would sacrifice his son Isaac, God stopped him. This showed Abrahams faith, because Abraham knew that through Isaac would come the seed of promise but when God told him to sacrifice his son Isaac Abraham obeyed because he knew that if he did sacrifice his son Isaac God could raise Isaac from the dead to fulfill that promise that through his son Isaac would come the seed of promise.
 
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