A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimExodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.Those verses was taken from Exodus 20: Which is part of Ten Commandments that Elohiym gave to Moses and his followers.In this verses Elohiym state clearly to all of us, especially Jews to NOT taking any others god, in any of FORM that might be like has been described in Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.If God had given those Words, how can Jesus can be considered as God ?Is itn't seems like contradictory ?For the explaination on that mater i shall say thank you, and sorry for un convenience.Best regards,Ricky WisnadriWallahu a'lam.
Relation Jesus as God with Exodus 20 ?
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If God had given those Words, how can Jesus can be considered as God ?
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. God blessDave
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. God blessDave
Mighty Bear
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Jesus is both creature and co-Creator“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."(Revelation 3:14)“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,and the heavens are the work of your hands;they will perish, but you remain;they will all wear out like a garment,like a robe you will roll them up,like a garment they will be changed.But you are the same,and your years will have no end.”(Hebrews 1:10-12)
Mighty Bear
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"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."(John 1:3)"Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."(2 Corinthians 3:15-17) Read the whole chapter.We do things out of love now, not bound by laws."Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,but a body have you prepared for me;in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” (Hebrews 10:5-7)"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13)
Mighty Bear
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God is spirit, a body is just a dress."God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”(John 4:24)Church of Love in Jesus Christhttp://christiansite.multiply.com/journal
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Dave)
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.
Ehm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?
**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Let Us in Our image...Watch on that one, if the meaning of Us which is you considered as plural, as the consequence logical that mean There are 2 God with 2 same image. That mean the first and the second has 2 form of human. Now tell me Dave, is that what you believe ?
Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
If we take a look what was foretold in that verse, we can say that Jesus was the first human being born. It is agains what has been told in the Genesis, which is Adam was the first born human being.In the verse 18. I don't know how to understand it, because i see two meanings on it. The first one is it mean that Jesus was the first human that was create, or the second one, that Jesus was rise from the death.I take the first meaning in my writings above that sentences because seems like you are talking about the creation. But then it will be weird if that was like the the first as i already explain above, but if the meaning was from the second, it's also weird, because Jesus was not the first person was raise among the death.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. God blessDave
In that verse was not talking about physically things, but it just Word. Not an image as you trying to point at. Nothing said about body or flesh.But the most important of what i'm trying to talking about is if you give me the answer on the first question.Wallahu a'lam.
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.
Ehm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?
**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Let Us in Our image...Watch on that one, if the meaning of Us which is you considered as plural, as the consequence logical that mean There are 2 God with 2 same image. That mean the first and the second has 2 form of human. Now tell me Dave, is that what you believe ?
Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
If we take a look what was foretold in that verse, we can say that Jesus was the first human being born. It is agains what has been told in the Genesis, which is Adam was the first born human being.In the verse 18. I don't know how to understand it, because i see two meanings on it. The first one is it mean that Jesus was the first human that was create, or the second one, that Jesus was rise from the death.I take the first meaning in my writings above that sentences because seems like you are talking about the creation. But then it will be weird if that was like the the first as i already explain above, but if the meaning was from the second, it's also weird, because Jesus was not the first person was raise among the death.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. God blessDave
In that verse was not talking about physically things, but it just Word. Not an image as you trying to point at. Nothing said about body or flesh.But the most important of what i'm trying to talking about is if you give me the answer on the first question.Wallahu a'lam.
I can safely say this. One who doesn't have the Holy Ghost at all with them can not understand the truth.Jag
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(thesuperjag)
I can safely say this. One who doesn't have the Holy Ghost at all with them can not understand the truth.Jag
Do you have ?If you have, how come you still cannot know the different between lie or truth ? I already show you, am i ? When you tell the lie of Islam teach that still you considered as truth ?Only your deep inside of your heart and clear mind can tell whether it's true or not. Your heart and clear mind. Jordan. Only from your deeply inside of your heart the place of kindness of human. Your heart and clear mind for the truth Jordan.Wallahu a'lam.
I can safely say this. One who doesn't have the Holy Ghost at all with them can not understand the truth.Jag
Do you have ?If you have, how come you still cannot know the different between lie or truth ? I already show you, am i ? When you tell the lie of Islam teach that still you considered as truth ?Only your deep inside of your heart and clear mind can tell whether it's true or not. Your heart and clear mind. Jordan. Only from your deeply inside of your heart the place of kindness of human. Your heart and clear mind for the truth Jordan.Wallahu a'lam.
Jesus is God, as he said himself "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9). This being the case, Jesus is worshiped as God and not put before God as a false idol, spirit, or anything else would be.Not understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comes from one thing - not understanding the nature of God.
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Denver)
Jesus is God, as he said himself "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9). This being the case, Jesus is worshiped as God and not put before God as a false idol, spirit, or anything else would be.Not understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comes from one thing - not understanding the nature of God.
Thank you for your time to joining in this thread Denver, i appreciate that
.If you not mind also, i would like to ask you regarding on Dave explanation on my writings. Like i'm quoting below 
Ricky W)
(Dave)
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.
Ehm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?John 14:9 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. Jesus was the Messenger of God, the word that Jesus gave was from God who has sent him.Those verse from what i see is not telling literally that Jesus was the Father using body.Jesus of course aware of what God has said in the OT/Torah that God cannot be seen. If that verse was telling about Jesus as God, then God has change His word in the OT that God cannot be seeing. So what the point of Jesus saying on that verse, we can see in the 14:24.Wallahu a'lam.
Jesus is God, as he said himself "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9). This being the case, Jesus is worshiped as God and not put before God as a false idol, spirit, or anything else would be.Not understanding the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comes from one thing - not understanding the nature of God.
Thank you for your time to joining in this thread Denver, i appreciate that
Ricky W)(Dave)
Jesus is not an idol. So He cannot be "an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." made by mans hands.
Ehm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?John 14:9 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. Jesus was the Messenger of God, the word that Jesus gave was from God who has sent him.Those verse from what i see is not telling literally that Jesus was the Father using body.Jesus of course aware of what God has said in the OT/Torah that God cannot be seen. If that verse was telling about Jesus as God, then God has change His word in the OT that God cannot be seeing. So what the point of Jesus saying on that verse, we can see in the 14:24.Wallahu a'lam.
Ehm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?
Obviously, that would be covered in the previous verse:Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The 10 commandments are not grouped in order of importance.
Jesus was the Messenger of God, the word that Jesus gave was from God who has sent him.Those verse from what i see is not telling literally that Jesus was the Father using body.Jesus of course aware of what God has said in the OT/Torah that God cannot be seen. If that verse was telling about Jesus as God, then God has change His word in the OT that God cannot be seeing. So what the point of Jesus saying on that verse, we can see in the 14:24.
I promise you that won't go far Ricky by trying to bring about some discrepancy here, because this makes the critical but misguided assumption that the authors of the Bible were nothing short of idiots. If it was that simple, it would have been disproven long ago now.Obviously one must look deeper. YHVH declared it in the OT and Yeshua finished a great part of it in the NT with the rest to come:John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
I jump a few verses back, though:John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
This is where our limitations come in, though it's not impossible to get past them. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father as he says. God the Father, Adonai YHVH spoke the words originally, but Yeshua came to finish His Word because he is the Word made flesh:John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Add:John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
It makes a simple equation, but one that cannot be ignored.As Jesus says in Matthew 5, he came to fulfill, not to change.So really, there's plenty of documentation that Christ, as the son of God, is one role of the three that make up the Godhead. There is one God, three offices - that's the best analogy I've ever heard for it. It's not anything polytheistic. It's quite unique and revolutionary - the very hallmark of YHVH. Each fulfilling a different role but work unified as the three manifestations of the one and only God.
Obviously, that would be covered in the previous verse:Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
The 10 commandments are not grouped in order of importance.
Jesus was the Messenger of God, the word that Jesus gave was from God who has sent him.Those verse from what i see is not telling literally that Jesus was the Father using body.Jesus of course aware of what God has said in the OT/Torah that God cannot be seen. If that verse was telling about Jesus as God, then God has change His word in the OT that God cannot be seeing. So what the point of Jesus saying on that verse, we can see in the 14:24.
I promise you that won't go far Ricky by trying to bring about some discrepancy here, because this makes the critical but misguided assumption that the authors of the Bible were nothing short of idiots. If it was that simple, it would have been disproven long ago now.Obviously one must look deeper. YHVH declared it in the OT and Yeshua finished a great part of it in the NT with the rest to come:John 4:34
Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
I jump a few verses back, though:John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
This is where our limitations come in, though it's not impossible to get past them. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father as he says. God the Father, Adonai YHVH spoke the words originally, but Yeshua came to finish His Word because he is the Word made flesh:John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Add:John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
It makes a simple equation, but one that cannot be ignored.As Jesus says in Matthew 5, he came to fulfill, not to change.So really, there's plenty of documentation that Christ, as the son of God, is one role of the three that make up the Godhead. There is one God, three offices - that's the best analogy I've ever heard for it. It's not anything polytheistic. It's quite unique and revolutionary - the very hallmark of YHVH. Each fulfilling a different role but work unified as the three manifestations of the one and only God.
John (1:1): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."I think we're all in agreement that a Holy Scripture shouldn't contain contradictions. If there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true; both can never be true or both wrong.According to John 1:1, Jesus would be God then. But how many gods are there? Two at least. This then is in contradiction with many passages in the Bible: (Deut. 4:39): "...that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is non else"; (Deut. 6:4): "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"; (Isaiah 43:10-11): "...that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I , am the Lord; and beside me there is no savior"; (Isaiah 44:6): "Thus saith the Lord...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God"; (Isaiah 45:18): "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; there is none else."From Isaiah 45:18 alone we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and no one else, not even Jesus, participated in the creation. See further Deut. 4:35: Exodus 8:10; Samuel 7:22; I Kings 8:23; I Chronicles 17:20; Psalms 86:8, 89:6 and 113:5; Hosea 13:4, Zechariah 14:9.In the NT in Mark 12:29 Jesus himself said: "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord OUR God is one Lord."(I Corinthians 8:4): "...we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other than God but one." (I Timothy 2:5): "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or vice versa.
(I Corinthians 8:4): "...we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other than God but one." (I Timothy 2:5): "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus." Pay attention to the expression "the man Christ Jesus." Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or vice versa.
Again, this makes the assumption that millions or Christians and the writers of the Bible are idiots that would contradict themselves when they had the other texts right in front of them. I have a lot of trouble with that assumption.I've pretty much already answered this. Either you believe one way or you don't, but for me the verses quite obviously do not contradict.We're men and we can't see any farther than our glasses will allow us. We limit (try to anyway) God to a single form. One God, three persons, each functioning in a different role. It's not that hard, are there are not contradictions about it.
From Isaiah 45:18 alone we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and no one else, not even Jesus, participated in the creation.
We can? That'd be news to my ears!I Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
God man man in "our" image - he was called Elohim (note the plural) in many cases for a reason. Then we have the Ruach Adonai of the OT, the very same Holy Spirit that comes to us in the NT.Again, it clearly points to one thing and one thing along - that God is made up of the three that are all extensions of the one and only. It's not very difficult to understand when you go back to the manuscripts and go back to the prophecy and back to the details of even the OT. Jesus was indeed a man, our very faith operates on that, but Jesus was also the Word made flesh, the Son of God on Earth. The one true God.
Again, this makes the assumption that millions or Christians and the writers of the Bible are idiots that would contradict themselves when they had the other texts right in front of them. I have a lot of trouble with that assumption.I've pretty much already answered this. Either you believe one way or you don't, but for me the verses quite obviously do not contradict.We're men and we can't see any farther than our glasses will allow us. We limit (try to anyway) God to a single form. One God, three persons, each functioning in a different role. It's not that hard, are there are not contradictions about it.
From Isaiah 45:18 alone we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and no one else, not even Jesus, participated in the creation.
We can? That'd be news to my ears!I Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
God man man in "our" image - he was called Elohim (note the plural) in many cases for a reason. Then we have the Ruach Adonai of the OT, the very same Holy Spirit that comes to us in the NT.Again, it clearly points to one thing and one thing along - that God is made up of the three that are all extensions of the one and only. It's not very difficult to understand when you go back to the manuscripts and go back to the prophecy and back to the details of even the OT. Jesus was indeed a man, our very faith operates on that, but Jesus was also the Word made flesh, the Son of God on Earth. The one true God.
Hi Ricky(Ricky W;21632)
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimEhm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?
Yes, that would be idololtry. Idolotry starts from the heart, and manifests itself in different ways. One of which is to worship imagaes carved with hands. Idolatry Is Foolishness.From Isaiah 44:9 Those who make an image, all of them are useless, And their precious things shall not profit; They are their own witnesses; They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed. 10 Who would form a god or mold an image Thatprofits him nothing? 11 Surely all his companions would be ashamed; And the workmen, they are mere men. Let them all be gathered together, Let them stand up; Yet they shall fear, They shall be ashamed together. 12 The blacksmith with the tongs works one in the coals, Fashions it with hammers, And works it with the strength of his arms. Even so, he is hungry, and his strength fails; He drinks no water and is faint. 13 The craftsman stretches out his rule, He marks one out with chalk; He fashions it with a plane, He marks it out with the compass, And makes it like the figure of a man, According to the beauty of a man, that it may remain in the house. 14 He cuts down cedars for himself, And takes the cypress and the oak; He secures it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a pine, and the rain nourishes it. 15 Then it shall be for a man to burn, For he will take some of it and warm himself; Yes, he kindles it and bakes bread; Indeed he makes a god and worships it; He makes it a carved image, and falls down to it. 16 He burns half of it in the fire; With this half he eats meat; He roasts a roast, and is satisfied. He even warms himself and says, “ Ah! I am warm, I have seen the fire.” 17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, His carved image. He falls down before it and worships it, Prays to it and says, “ Deliver me, for you are my god!” 18 They do not know nor understand; For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand. 19 And no one considers in his heart, Nor is there knowledge nor understanding to say, “ I have burned half of it in the fire, Yes, I have also baked bread on its coals; I have roasted meat and eaten it; And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” 20 He feeds on ashes; A deceived heart has turned him aside; And he cannot deliver his soul, Nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”=============================================================================================== Dave wrote:
**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Ricky wrote:
Let Us in Our image...Watch on that one, if the meaning of Us which is you considered as plural, as the consequence logical that mean There are 2 God with 2 same image. That mean the first and the second has 2 form of human. Now tell me Dave, is that what you believe ?
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.I don't believe in two God's. With all due respect, in the past, I have confronted your reasoning in this matter based on what you believe, and you never replied to me. Perhaps now we can settle this matter. If you will, please respond to my post in this thread. Thank you.http://www.christianityboard.com/understan...nity-t3691.html==============================================================================================Deave wrote:
Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Ricky wrote:
If we take a look what was foretold in that verse, we can say that Jesus was the first human being born. It is agains what has been told in the Genesis, which is Adam was the first born human being.In the verse 18. I don't know how to understand it, because i see two meanings on it. The first one is it mean that Jesus was the first human that was create, or the second one, that Jesus was rise from the death.I take the first meaning in my writings above that sentences because seems like you are talking about the creation. But then it will be weird if that was like the the first as i already explain above, but if the meaning was from the second, it's also weird, because Jesus was not the first person was raise among the death.
You're close, "firstborn" means first in preeminence, not first in order of physical birth. Jesus certainly was not the first physically raised from the dead, as you have noted, but He is the firstborn (first in preeminence) from the dead. Jesus was never created, He and the Father are One. Firstborn over all Creation does not mean physically born, or created, but first in preeminence.============================================================================================== Dave wrote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Ricky wrote:
In that verse was not talking about physically things, but it just Word. Not an image as you trying to point at. Nothing said about body or flesh.But the most important of what i'm trying to talking about is if you give me the answer on the first question.Wallahu a'lam.
...John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...er=1&version=50 Thank you for your reply, Ricky, God blessDave
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimEhm... i wanna ask with you Dave, i hope you mind with this kind of question.If there is some people who worshiping a living snake or a living cow or perhaps a living monkey as their god. Does those people, can considered as making an idol ?
Yes, that would be idololtry. Idolotry starts from the heart, and manifests itself in different ways. One of which is to worship imagaes carved with hands. Idolatry Is Foolishness.From Isaiah 44:9 Those who make an image, all of them are useless, And their precious things shall not profit; They are their own witnesses; They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed. 10 Who would form a god or mold an image Thatprofits him nothing? 11 Surely all his companions would be ashamed; And the workmen, they are mere men. Let them all be gathered together, Let them stand up; Yet they shall fear, They shall be ashamed together. 12 The blacksmith with the tongs works one in the coals, Fashions it with hammers, And works it with the strength of his arms. Even so, he is hungry, and his strength fails; He drinks no water and is faint. 13 The craftsman stretches out his rule, He marks one out with chalk; He fashions it with a plane, He marks it out with the compass, And makes it like the figure of a man, According to the beauty of a man, that it may remain in the house. 14 He cuts down cedars for himself, And takes the cypress and the oak; He secures it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a pine, and the rain nourishes it. 15 Then it shall be for a man to burn, For he will take some of it and warm himself; Yes, he kindles it and bakes bread; Indeed he makes a god and worships it; He makes it a carved image, and falls down to it. 16 He burns half of it in the fire; With this half he eats meat; He roasts a roast, and is satisfied. He even warms himself and says, “ Ah! I am warm, I have seen the fire.” 17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, His carved image. He falls down before it and worships it, Prays to it and says, “ Deliver me, for you are my god!” 18 They do not know nor understand; For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand. 19 And no one considers in his heart, Nor is there knowledge nor understanding to say, “ I have burned half of it in the fire, Yes, I have also baked bread on its coals; I have roasted meat and eaten it; And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” 20 He feeds on ashes; A deceived heart has turned him aside; And he cannot deliver his soul, Nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”=============================================================================================== Dave wrote:
**God made** us in the image of Himself. When Jesus, who is fully God, took on bodily form as a man (incarnate), His body was also made in that image.Take special notice to the fact that God is speaking of Himself in plural in this verse.Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;...27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Ricky wrote:
Let Us in Our image...Watch on that one, if the meaning of Us which is you considered as plural, as the consequence logical that mean There are 2 God with 2 same image. That mean the first and the second has 2 form of human. Now tell me Dave, is that what you believe ?
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.I don't believe in two God's. With all due respect, in the past, I have confronted your reasoning in this matter based on what you believe, and you never replied to me. Perhaps now we can settle this matter. If you will, please respond to my post in this thread. Thank you.http://www.christianityboard.com/understan...nity-t3691.html==============================================================================================Deave wrote:
Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [first in preeminence] over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Ricky wrote:
If we take a look what was foretold in that verse, we can say that Jesus was the first human being born. It is agains what has been told in the Genesis, which is Adam was the first born human being.In the verse 18. I don't know how to understand it, because i see two meanings on it. The first one is it mean that Jesus was the first human that was create, or the second one, that Jesus was rise from the death.I take the first meaning in my writings above that sentences because seems like you are talking about the creation. But then it will be weird if that was like the the first as i already explain above, but if the meaning was from the second, it's also weird, because Jesus was not the first person was raise among the death.
You're close, "firstborn" means first in preeminence, not first in order of physical birth. Jesus certainly was not the first physically raised from the dead, as you have noted, but He is the firstborn (first in preeminence) from the dead. Jesus was never created, He and the Father are One. Firstborn over all Creation does not mean physically born, or created, but first in preeminence.============================================================================================== Dave wrote:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Ricky wrote:
In that verse was not talking about physically things, but it just Word. Not an image as you trying to point at. Nothing said about body or flesh.But the most important of what i'm trying to talking about is if you give me the answer on the first question.Wallahu a'lam.
...John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_...er=1&version=50 Thank you for your reply, Ricky, God blessDave
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim
Dave...;]Hi RickyYes said:
I do apologize for it, but i don't think you are talking to me. So i don't feel you have explaining anything for me in that thread. Sorry Dave.
But still Jesus was being made/create, right ?And i becaming more confious, because you said God is only one. Jesus and Father is the same, but Jesus was first born over all creation which mean Jesus was being create. So God need to create first, that if i'm seeing from your statement.
So unseing God now inform of human being, which is make me more confius that God has left the heaven, because God is Word, but Word has come to flesh, then God has left the heaven, but at the same time Jesus ask to Word/God in the heaven. I don't know Dave, but it seems doesn't make sense to me.It just more seing contradict one to the others.Wallaahu a'lam.
(Ricky W;26884)
So unseing God now inform of human being, which is make me more confius that God has left the heaven, because God is Word, but Word has come to flesh, then God has left the heaven, but at the same time Jesus ask to Word/God in the heaven. I don't know Dave, but it seems doesn't make sense to me.Wallaahu a'lam.
Forgive me please if you find this example too simplistic - I use it with my children to explain the concept of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - three in ONE:Take one egg. Crack it and seperate the yolk, the white, and the shell. Put the egg yolk in a cup, put the egg shell in the sink, put the egg white in a bowl. There are now three seperate parts - but still only ONE egg. God is the same. The Father, the Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit are three seperate beings - yet they are One. We do not worship three Gods - but only One. (like one egg
) Silly? perhaps - but it helped my children to understand the concept that three can equal One. Maybe it will help you? Peace be with you.
So unseing God now inform of human being, which is make me more confius that God has left the heaven, because God is Word, but Word has come to flesh, then God has left the heaven, but at the same time Jesus ask to Word/God in the heaven. I don't know Dave, but it seems doesn't make sense to me.Wallaahu a'lam.
Forgive me please if you find this example too simplistic - I use it with my children to explain the concept of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - three in ONE:Take one egg. Crack it and seperate the yolk, the white, and the shell. Put the egg yolk in a cup, put the egg shell in the sink, put the egg white in a bowl. There are now three seperate parts - but still only ONE egg. God is the same. The Father, the Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit are three seperate beings - yet they are One. We do not worship three Gods - but only One. (like one egg
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimA'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Peacebewithyou)
Forgive me please if you find this example too simplistic - I use it with my children to explain the concept of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - three in ONE:Take one egg. Crack it and seperate the yolk, the white, and the shell. Put the egg yolk in a cup, put the egg shell in the sink, put the egg white in a bowl. There are now three seperate parts - but still only ONE egg. God is the same. The Father, the Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit are three seperate beings - yet they are One. We do not worship three Gods - but only One. (like one egg
) Silly? Yes - but it helped my children to understand. Maybe it will help you? Peace be with you.
Well i don't know peace, it seems work to your children, but i don't think that can be apply on me or someone who has 'the knowledge' (*i guess). Child is just a like white paper that can be penned by anyone who want to write it on.Let me show you what i meant with someone who has 'the knowledge' by using the same as your analogy above.There is an egg, and the egg contains yolk, the white, and the shell.There is a God, and God contains Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - as per your term.Now let me ask you, does the shell is still considered as egg ?does the white is still considered as egg ?and does the yolk is still considered as egg ?I guess will say no to all of the question. Because shell is shell and it's not will be call egg, and so on.Now let us do the same thing to God as per christian term.Does Father is God ?Does Son is God ?Does Holy Spirit is God ?I do believe you will say yes without question. So you see, it's different when you are talking to a child and someone who has 'knowledge'. (*I'm not trying to be haughty, it just an example thought).And also i don't know what we are talking to is has something to do with the thread
.Best regards,Ricky WWallaahu a'lam.
Forgive me please if you find this example too simplistic - I use it with my children to explain the concept of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit - three in ONE:Take one egg. Crack it and seperate the yolk, the white, and the shell. Put the egg yolk in a cup, put the egg shell in the sink, put the egg white in a bowl. There are now three seperate parts - but still only ONE egg. God is the same. The Father, the Son Jesus, The Holy Spirit are three seperate beings - yet they are One. We do not worship three Gods - but only One. (like one egg
Well i don't know peace, it seems work to your children, but i don't think that can be apply on me or someone who has 'the knowledge' (*i guess). Child is just a like white paper that can be penned by anyone who want to write it on.Let me show you what i meant with someone who has 'the knowledge' by using the same as your analogy above.There is an egg, and the egg contains yolk, the white, and the shell.There is a God, and God contains Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - as per your term.Now let me ask you, does the shell is still considered as egg ?does the white is still considered as egg ?and does the yolk is still considered as egg ?I guess will say no to all of the question. Because shell is shell and it's not will be call egg, and so on.Now let us do the same thing to God as per christian term.Does Father is God ?Does Son is God ?Does Holy Spirit is God ?I do believe you will say yes without question. So you see, it's different when you are talking to a child and someone who has 'knowledge'. (*I'm not trying to be haughty, it just an example thought).And also i don't know what we are talking to is has something to do with the thread
Jesus is the Son of God, God sent His only Son to save us. That Son's birth was devine not natural, GOD's SON, JESUS, OUR ONLY SAVIOUR FROM OUR SINS. There is God, Jesus the Son of God and The Holy Spirit, that's why Christians call it as Trinity. Different forms of God. They all are from God.
To answer your original question, Jesus is not an idol. (Exodus 20:3) "You shall not have any other gods before Me."(Exodus 20:4) "You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;"These are two separate commands. We are to not have any other gods (20:3) and we are not to worship anything made by the hands of man (20:4).Jesus is not an "other god". We believe that he is the one true God. Jesus is not something that is made by the hands of man. God cannot be created.
So unseing God now inform of human being, which is make me more confius that God has left the heaven, because God is Word, but Word has come to flesh, then God has left the heaven, but at the same time Jesus ask to Word/God in the heaven. I don't know Dave, but it seems doesn't make sense to me.
When God created the universe, he did so by speaking. In Genesis we see this, "then God said, Let light be! And there was light." (Genesis 1:3) So literally, in the beginning was the word. As we read in John 1:1, this word was both with God and was God at the same time. This can be a little difficult for us to understand, because we can not be with ourself. We also cannot be at two different places at the same time. This is because we are only human. God, however, does not have the limits that we do. God can be with himself. God can be at two places at the same time. God can do anything. After all, he is God.We then learn in John 1:14 that the word, which is God, is Jesus. How can Jesus talk to God in heaven if they are the same? It is because God can be at two places at once. He was both in heaven and on earth. Jesus didn't have to pray to himself because he already knew his own desires, but if he didn't pray the disciples would learn nothing about prayer. This is why Jesus prayed, to show us how it is done and how important it is. I hope this helps.Also, do not be sorry for asking. Seeking to understand is a good thing.may God bless you and give you understanding.
So unseing God now inform of human being, which is make me more confius that God has left the heaven, because God is Word, but Word has come to flesh, then God has left the heaven, but at the same time Jesus ask to Word/God in the heaven. I don't know Dave, but it seems doesn't make sense to me.
When God created the universe, he did so by speaking. In Genesis we see this, "then God said, Let light be! And there was light." (Genesis 1:3) So literally, in the beginning was the word. As we read in John 1:1, this word was both with God and was God at the same time. This can be a little difficult for us to understand, because we can not be with ourself. We also cannot be at two different places at the same time. This is because we are only human. God, however, does not have the limits that we do. God can be with himself. God can be at two places at the same time. God can do anything. After all, he is God.We then learn in John 1:14 that the word, which is God, is Jesus. How can Jesus talk to God in heaven if they are the same? It is because God can be at two places at once. He was both in heaven and on earth. Jesus didn't have to pray to himself because he already knew his own desires, but if he didn't pray the disciples would learn nothing about prayer. This is why Jesus prayed, to show us how it is done and how important it is. I hope this helps.Also, do not be sorry for asking. Seeking to understand is a good thing.may God bless you and give you understanding.
A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Thunder1)
Jesus is the Son of God, God sent His only Son to save us. That Son's birth was devine not natural, GOD's SON, JESUS, OUR ONLY SAVIOUR FROM OUR SINS. There is God, Jesus the Son of God and The Holy Spirit, that's why Christians call it as Trinity. Different forms of God. They all are from God.
You are in lost i suppose
, now i wanna ask you, have you ever meet word that has meaning by the time you are using word sent, there is only has 1 object which is the same object ?Wallaahu a'lam.
Jesus is the Son of God, God sent His only Son to save us. That Son's birth was devine not natural, GOD's SON, JESUS, OUR ONLY SAVIOUR FROM OUR SINS. There is God, Jesus the Son of God and The Holy Spirit, that's why Christians call it as Trinity. Different forms of God. They all are from God.
You are in lost i suppose
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