1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Relationship Between Israel and the Church

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Trekson, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abrahamic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel. God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain for just the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. (ex. Acts 2:17-21) We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation.

    Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

    There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs.25) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24). The word “all” in vs.26 doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 and the rest of the woman (believing Israel) who goes into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14. Where will they come from? I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen (Zech. 12:10) at the abomination of desolation in the midst (not necessarily the exact middle) of the 70th week.

    While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Jewish remnant that enters the millennium, not the church because the earth is not our home, our home is in heaven with God until the NJ arrives.

    I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.
     
    Anthony D'Arienzo likes this.
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,918
    Likes Received:
    4,872
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Well that's your loss.
    Dispensationalists take Scripture in its plain literal sense. The New Jerusalem is the eternal home of the Church, but greater Israel (between the Nile and the Euphrates) will be the eternal home of a redeemed and restored Kingdom of Israel under Christ, populated by a believing remnant of the 12 tribes of Israel. The 144,000 will remain in Heaven.
    Since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ, and the restoration of Israel takes place AFTER the Second Coming, there is no need to mix everything up. Only the Church will be the Bride of Christ, and will include the OT saints.

    As to unity, there will be spiritual unity between the Church and redeemed Israel under the New Covenant. But these are two separate entities, and God has a plan and purpose for each one. Replacement Theology, Amillennialism, and Preterism are all false interpretations.
     
  3. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    148
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I agree with the first part but the 144,000 will be on earth. Rev.14:4 says they will follow the Lamb wherever he goes so when he is ruling and reigning here on earth they will be here as well.

    We do see things differently here. Are you aware that there is no scripture that calls the church the Bride of Christ? The closest the bible comes is when it uses marriage as an allegory explaining the unity we should have with each other, in Christ and the worship of God, alone. I agree totally with your last sentence.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    If God broke off the unbelievers from Israel, to whom does he reattach them if they accept Christ? Themselves or to Christendom?
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  5. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    1 Corinthians 10.32 makes it clear that the church and the Jew and the Gentile are distinct.
     
  6. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    John 15 in the words of the Lord Jesus, has: 'I am the vine'...
     
    Dave L likes this.
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38) (KJV 1900)

    In the OT, the church (congregation of the Lord) appears over 300 times.
     
    Waiting on him likes this.
  8. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    I would, however, see Pentecost (Acts 2) as when the church started, when the Spirit came to indwell His people in Christ taken out of both Judaism and Gentiles.
     
  9. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    PS: @Dave L In Acts, the word 'assembly' can even refer to an unruly crowd. It's not necessary that such a word wherever it occurs should always and only refer to the church.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Acts was the church entering the New Covenant. Jesus then built his church on faith alone and dropped the Law and the unbelievers it controlled.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Church = assembly. It's use determines it's precise meaning. Congregation of the Lord = Church of the Lord.
     
  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    ...but I don't see the church as an extension of the body politic - so to speak - of Judaism. The veil of the temple was rent in twain; it was not the case that Christians from a Gentile background were simply added to a Jewish body politic, or that people in Christ from a Jewish background are somehow supposedly preferential shareholders, or whatever.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  13. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    I don't think we can retrospectively read New Testament concepts from after the Cross, Resurrection, Ascension and Pentecost, into word usage in the Old Testament.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  14. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    Jesus got rid of the Church/State and kept the Church. He removed the Law and the unbelieving majority when he abolished circumcision. The church is purely invisible and spiritual since Pentecost. It only becomes visible when two or more meet (assemble) in Jesus' name. And then returns to invisibility until the next meeting.
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    I see some of what you mean, but I wouldn't even use the word church for anything in the Old Testament. We probably don't see things similarly.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    the LXX bridges the gap transposing OT themes into NT understanding.
     
  17. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The words are the same in the LXX. The bible the early NT version of the Church used.
     
  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    ...but it's not the case of reading New Testament concepts into the Old Testament. I really don't see the church in the OT at all. The Ephesian mystery was revealed in the New Testament and came into being at Pentecost. The Spirit never indwelt Old Testament believers in the way He does in New Testament believers.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    We interpret the OT by the NT revelation of it.
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  20. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,645
    Likes Received:
    5,266
    Yes, but I struggle really with the idea of what is revealed in the New Testament as being directly there already in the Old Testament when the necessary conditions did not apply yet.

    Types are not anti-types; shadows are not glorious fulfilment. In fact I would say that there are maybe excellent parallels in the Old Testament to things in New Testament church truth but they are not the entity itself; they are not the glorious fulfilment itself.
     
    Dave L likes this.
Loading...