This study goes over why it is necessary to stop sinning, which is what "repent" actually means, what the circumcision of the heart is, what the baptism of the holy spirit causes, and the purpose of the first coming of Jesus Christ to not only atone for sin, but to end it. The study can be found in English here Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit | Wisdom of God or in Spanish here Arrepentimiento y No Pecar Más, Perfección y Nacido del Espíritu | Sabiduria de Dios , let us begin a discussion on this matter here.
Repentance and Sin No More, Perfection and Born of the Spirit
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H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
Do you really think a person can stop sinning by that person's will? What about the sinful nature that is in everyone?
All through the O.T. we see that none of the saints of old stopped sinning and became perfect so why do people think they can do it now?
Peter told the JEWS to repent of their sin of killing the Messiah and king. At that time mankind was under the law. But today we are not under the law but under grace where Jesus kept the law for us, and atoned for all the sins of the world. To think that Jesus' shed blood did not atone for the sins of the world leaves people with their sins unpaid for and they can repent all they want to but it does not atone for their sins.
It is beyond me that a person can think they no longer sin in the flesh. But many do just like the pharisees who plotted murder and thought it was not sinful.
Clearly you do not understand the sanctification and perfection caused by the baptism of the holy spirit to free a man from sin.
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
The scriptures never say a man in the flesh can stop sinning. Clearly you think a person is saved by what that person does in the flesh.
It is only the spirit of a man that is saved. The flesh sees corruption. There are no works that a person can do that will change that person's sinful condition. Salvation is the work of God which He accomplished when He atoned for all the sins of the world. People would do well to trust in His work, not theirs.
Why do ignorant people insist on always saying, "the scriptures never say....", whenever something is said that disagrees with what they believe, when in fact they do? I've outlined this study quoting the scriptures that do in fact say this, and I'll requote them again, because clearly you either skimmed or did not read the study,
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:18 [NIV])
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:27 [ESV])
We know that every one being engendered of God does not sin; but the one engendered of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (I John 5:18 [ABP])
for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. (1 John 5:4 [NIV])
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. (1 John 3:6 [NASB])
For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the ones having been sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 [ABP])
To be "born of God" is to be "baptized in the holy spirit" and to be "sanctified by the holy spirit", which FREES YOU FROM SIN, BY CIRCUMCISING YOUR HEART, WHICH IS RIDDING YOU OF YOUR SINFUL NATURE, HENCE,
In Him you were also circumcised in the putting off of your sinful nature… (Colossians 2:11 [BSB])
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (Romans 2:29 [NIV])
Understand and learn, and stop being stubborn, because anyone who resists this teaching cannot be saved, because he prevents himself from reaching the full stature of Christ by receiving the holy spirit,
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (Ephesians 4:13 [ESV])
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
So I am ignorant and being stubborn because I do not believe what you are saying. Why do you think you are so much better in understanding than others? Do you really think these scriptures you quote mean your sinful nature is done away with and you no longer sin in the flesh? We still live in sinful flesh and will until we die BUT we are no longer condemned by our sins since Jesus atoned for them on the cross.
Be careful or soon you will be the Pharisee in
Luke 18:9-14 - The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV
You are exalting yourself as being sinless.
The flesh itself, meaning your body, is not what makes make sinful, IT IS THE HEART, THAT IS SET ON EVIL DESIRES TO SATISFY THE FLESH, THAT MAKES YOU SINFUL. Once you clean the heart, by removing its sinful nature, by sanctification of the holy spirit, then you are able and can no longer sin, EVEN IN YOUR CURRENT BODY.
No one here is exalting themselves, for sanctification of the inner man is the work of the holy spirit, not the man himself, and you are rejecting the work of the holy spirit because of your ignorance concerning him, and rejecting the scriptures that clearly demonstrate you are wrong. So I can only surmise that it is also because you want to carry on in your sin, for many of you are appalled at the idea of never again indulging in your sinful desires, but this is in fact the perfection that is now required in the new covenant, hence why Jesus Christ said, "be perfect", which is only possible by the baptism of the holy spirit.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
How do we become holy? This question can be answered in several ways:
1) We are all ‘holy’ in one sense, simply by virtue of belonging to God - and He isn’t going to dump us if we don’t reach some stratospheric level of perfection in our lives. But if we think there is nothing more to sanctification than this, we are in danger of acquiescing in our sins. ‘Cheap grace’ (Bonhoeffer) can be an easy excuse for lack of discipleship.
2) We have to acknowledge that mere human beings can’t make themselves ‘good enough for God’ – but that doesn’t mean we can shrug our shoulders and give up the moral struggle altogether. The New Testament is full of exhortations to holy living - and they are there for a reason! If Jesus is Lord, then He is to be obeyed. The danger with this approach, though, is that we may start to define holiness in legalistic terms, and measure our sanctification by how closely we conform to a particular standard.
3) God does command us to be holy - but He also supplies the means to make us holy. Christ’s death has set us free not only from the penalty of sin but also from the power of sin, in order to make us new people (Romans 8:1-4). True holiness, then, is not a matter of willpower but an inner transformation, brought about by the Holy Spirit. He will empower us to resist temptation and triumph over sin, achieving in us what we could never do for ourselves. The big question is: how does this happen? If it requires ‘complete surrender’ on our part, how do we achieve that? (And I use the word ‘achieve’ advisedly; ’surrendering’ is essentially something that we ourselves have to do, and how many of us can do it ‘completely’?) Like the gift of tongues, the ‘gift of holiness’ is one that seems to pass many believers by, causing them to feel frustrated and inadequate.
How can we put these three principles together? Christians are already ‘holy’ in the first sense of the word (consecrated to God); but we then have to go through the process of ‘becoming what we are’, so that our lives match up with our calling. Obedience is not the whole story; the Christian life is not simply the imposition of a new set of rules. The Holy Spirit is vital - He is living in us, working with us, providing us with the motivation, energy, desires and resources that do not come naturally to us, and persevering with us until we become like Christ. He does this in all of us, quietly producing His fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22,23), whether we have had any special experiences of Him or not. But the amount and quality of that spiritual fruit is largely up to us - and this is where obedience comes in.
When we moved into our present house (which was in a pretty neglected state) and cut down the jungle that was outside the back door, we found a plum tree in the garden. The tree produced the plums (it certainly wasn’t me!), but I had to go up a ladder and pick them every year. I also learned that if I wanted more plums and better quality plums, then I had to look after the tree properly - I had to thin out the fruit, for example, so that the branches wouldn’t break. It’s the same with the fruit of the Spirit: it comes from the Spirit, but we have to do our part and cultivate it.
So we have a choice: we can allow the Holy Spirit to take firm root in our lives and encourage the growth of His fruit, or we can resist His work and grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30). Every day of our lives, we are choosing between the Spirit and our sinful nature; the more we submit to the Spirit, the holier our lives will become (Galatians 6:8; Romans 8:13).
Although we are exhorted to aim for perfection (Matthew 5:48), it is a target we will never attain in this life. There are no short-cuts or sudden leaps to a state of complete holiness or blessedness; it is hard work, all the way. We will not win the victory here and now - it is enough to be fighting the battle.
What are we to make of those who claim to have achieved ‘victory over sin’? We should probably take such a boast with a pinch of the proverbial salt. A truly holy person, like Moses (Numbers 12:3), is so clothed with humility that they can see only their imperfections. Like Moses, they are unaware that their face is shining with the glory of God, even when it is obvious to everyone else (Exodus 34:29,30).
- God declares us holy, and that’s all there is to it - so don’t worry about it.
- We achieve holiness through obeying His commands.
- Holiness is a gift of the Holy Spirit (maybe through a ‘second blessing’ or ‘complete surrender’).
1) We are all ‘holy’ in one sense, simply by virtue of belonging to God - and He isn’t going to dump us if we don’t reach some stratospheric level of perfection in our lives. But if we think there is nothing more to sanctification than this, we are in danger of acquiescing in our sins. ‘Cheap grace’ (Bonhoeffer) can be an easy excuse for lack of discipleship.
2) We have to acknowledge that mere human beings can’t make themselves ‘good enough for God’ – but that doesn’t mean we can shrug our shoulders and give up the moral struggle altogether. The New Testament is full of exhortations to holy living - and they are there for a reason! If Jesus is Lord, then He is to be obeyed. The danger with this approach, though, is that we may start to define holiness in legalistic terms, and measure our sanctification by how closely we conform to a particular standard.
3) God does command us to be holy - but He also supplies the means to make us holy. Christ’s death has set us free not only from the penalty of sin but also from the power of sin, in order to make us new people (Romans 8:1-4). True holiness, then, is not a matter of willpower but an inner transformation, brought about by the Holy Spirit. He will empower us to resist temptation and triumph over sin, achieving in us what we could never do for ourselves. The big question is: how does this happen? If it requires ‘complete surrender’ on our part, how do we achieve that? (And I use the word ‘achieve’ advisedly; ’surrendering’ is essentially something that we ourselves have to do, and how many of us can do it ‘completely’?) Like the gift of tongues, the ‘gift of holiness’ is one that seems to pass many believers by, causing them to feel frustrated and inadequate.
How can we put these three principles together? Christians are already ‘holy’ in the first sense of the word (consecrated to God); but we then have to go through the process of ‘becoming what we are’, so that our lives match up with our calling. Obedience is not the whole story; the Christian life is not simply the imposition of a new set of rules. The Holy Spirit is vital - He is living in us, working with us, providing us with the motivation, energy, desires and resources that do not come naturally to us, and persevering with us until we become like Christ. He does this in all of us, quietly producing His fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22,23), whether we have had any special experiences of Him or not. But the amount and quality of that spiritual fruit is largely up to us - and this is where obedience comes in.
When we moved into our present house (which was in a pretty neglected state) and cut down the jungle that was outside the back door, we found a plum tree in the garden. The tree produced the plums (it certainly wasn’t me!), but I had to go up a ladder and pick them every year. I also learned that if I wanted more plums and better quality plums, then I had to look after the tree properly - I had to thin out the fruit, for example, so that the branches wouldn’t break. It’s the same with the fruit of the Spirit: it comes from the Spirit, but we have to do our part and cultivate it.
So we have a choice: we can allow the Holy Spirit to take firm root in our lives and encourage the growth of His fruit, or we can resist His work and grieve Him (Ephesians 4:30). Every day of our lives, we are choosing between the Spirit and our sinful nature; the more we submit to the Spirit, the holier our lives will become (Galatians 6:8; Romans 8:13).
Although we are exhorted to aim for perfection (Matthew 5:48), it is a target we will never attain in this life. There are no short-cuts or sudden leaps to a state of complete holiness or blessedness; it is hard work, all the way. We will not win the victory here and now - it is enough to be fighting the battle.
What are we to make of those who claim to have achieved ‘victory over sin’? We should probably take such a boast with a pinch of the proverbial salt. A truly holy person, like Moses (Numbers 12:3), is so clothed with humility that they can see only their imperfections. Like Moses, they are unaware that their face is shining with the glory of God, even when it is obvious to everyone else (Exodus 34:29,30).
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
Are you saying that Jesus did not win the battle for us so we have to do it by what we do?
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
So if I place my faith, trust in what Jesus did for me on the cross as a free gift I must want to sin? You are building a straw man. No child of God WANTS to sin Just as Paul did not want to sin in Romans 7. As a mater of fact they are looking forward to the promise of God of a new life in heaven where there will be no more sin. I see that nothing I say will show you that you are on the wrong path so I have nothing more to say to you.
why do so called arrogant and presumptuous Christians, like you have shown yourself to be here, always show up on sites like this flinging their narratives on some else's documents that are, if not always, almost always, a theology of men and not the Truth of God. why can't you just say what you are thinking about such and such scripture? we are not your students to be given reading assignments with requirements of a response you expect. odds are, you need help with your home work, that you should accomplish on your own. it wouldn't be the first time some one has used website forums to do their own homework.
How did any of my words lead you to say, "...I must want to sin?" I have affirmed quite the contrary, that unless you become perfected by the baptism of the holy spirit, which will cause you to never sin in THIS BODY, you cannot be saved. Your mere belief will not save you, nor even your remorse for your continual sins, for your belief must grow into the full stature of Christ, that is then sealed by the baptism of the holy spirit, which will cause you to never sin again. I am telling you the truth about this that none of your churches will tell you, because they are lying to you, and they are all on a path to destruction. Only very few will be saved.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
NO - I'm saying that the battle isn't over yet! As far as my own life is concerned, it's still going on.
If we don't have to do anything, why is the Bible (including the New Testament) so full of exhortations to "be holy"? For example: "Just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do." (I Peter 1:15)
Some would say that all we have to do is trust God for our sanctification, just as we do for our justification. This gives the false impression that sanctification, like justification, requires no effort on our own part. We are justified by faith alone; but sanctification is a joint enterprise between ourselves and the Holy Spirit. As Paul puts it,”continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfil His good purpose.” (Philippians 2:12,13)
Why are we repeatedly exhorted in Scripture to “be holy”, when holiness can only come from God Himself? Because God doesn’t force Himself upon us; He wants our co-operation. It’s God who sanctifies us - by giving us His own Holy Spirit (Romans 15:16), by speaking to us through Scripture (John 17:17), and by disciplining us through hardships and difficulties (Hebrews 12:7-11). But we have to do our part: we must walk with the Spirit, read the Scriptures and learn from our experiences.
It’s the Holy Spirit who teaches us to hate sin. He convicts us of sin by speaking to us through the Bible, or through sermons and Christian books. Some sins He will point out to us soon after our conversion; as we take action on these, He will gradually bring others to our attention. We will soon discover that renouncing sin is not usually a quick or easy matter; in fact, it may often be painful. The metaphors used in the New Testament are dramatic ones: “put to death” (Romans 8:13), “cut off your eye or hand” (Matthew 5:29,30), “crucify” (Galatians 5:24). These are drastic measures - and God won’t do it all for us. It’s our responsibility! We all find some sinful behaviours easier to deal with than others, and many of us have lifelong weaknesses that we will always struggle with. The important thing is to keep on fighting them, and not give up.
BUT we can't "win the battle" on our own. Without the power of the Spirit (who is Christ's gift to us) operating within us, nobody can be truly holy.
H. Richard
Well-Known Member
***
Only God can make a person holy. A person can not do it by trying not to sin.
According to scripture a person is washed, sanctified, and justified by the Holy spirit. It is IMPUTED righteousness. Men are not the holy spirit.
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
Holiness has two meanings: (1) Belonging to God (2) Being like God
Don't confuse them. Holiness isn't the same as righteousness either.
All Christians are already holy in the first sense. In the second sense, we have to become holy.
Righteousness may be imputed, but not holiness in the second sense.
But we agree that you can't become holy (even in the second sense) just by trying not to sin.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this. Repent, is's the Greek word,
G3340 μετανοέω metanoeo (me-ta-no-e'-ō) v.
1. to have a change of mind and heart, i.e. to reconsider and relent.
2. (morally) to have remorse and repent.
definition #2 above is correct, not to stop sinning, but to change on mind, and that we need to do. scripture, Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". witness #2. Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness".
and if one falls away.....
Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".
G3340 μετανοέω metanoeo (me-ta-no-e'-ō) v.
1. to have a change of mind and heart, i.e. to reconsider and relent.
2. (morally) to have remorse and repent.
definition #2 above is correct, not to stop sinning, but to change on mind, and that we need to do. scripture, Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". witness #2. Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness".
and if one falls away.....
Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame".
Dcopymope
Well-Known Member
The amount of disagreement between you all concerning basic doctrine truly makes my head spin, and if its making my head spin, I know its doing the same to an unbeliever. I'll try and boil it down for all of you. Righteousness is imputed by Jesus alone because it is he alone that brings salvation from judgement, for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Without Jesus Christ, your righteousness is like a filthy rag in the eyes of God. Holiness is a responsibility in striving to adopt the nature and character of God as an adopted son of God improved by the Holy Spirit. Its like King David who sinned plenty but was holy because he was a man, not after his own heart, but after God's own heart, so much so, that it made him want to run naked in a garden. He was not naked where do you get that? Please boil it down for me.
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