Repentance Vs. Eternal Security

[Ernest T. Bass]

Repent metanoeō :

Thayer's Lexicon:

--To change one's mind,

--Used esp. of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent on obtaining God's pardon

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3340&t=KJV


Matthew 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Luke 13:3,5 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".



Can a Christian steal his neighbors horse, be unrepentant keeping the stolen horse yet maintain his salvation? Or must he do "works meet for repentance" by making reparation by returning the stolen horse to its rightful owner else be lost?

(I used theft of a horse as an example but the main issue is can a Christian commit any sin, remain unrepentant of that sin yet maintain his salvation?)

 

[BornAgain]

If a Christian wanders back into the world of sin he or she can return back to God under the condition of repentance by stopping their sin and repenting....

Peter told him to “repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee” (Acts 8:22)

 

[ScottAU]

Repent metanoeō :

Thayer's Lexicon:

--To change one's mind,

--Used esp. of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent on obtaining God's pardon

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3340&t=KJV


Matthew 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Luke 13:3,5 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".



Can a Christian steal his neighbors horse, be unrepentant keeping the stolen horse yet maintain his salvation? Or must he do "works meet for repentance" by making reparation by returning the stolen horse to its rightful owner else be lost?

(I used theft of a horse as an example but the main issue is can a Christian commit any sin, remain unrepentant of that sin yet maintain his salvation?)

A truly repentant heart would bring forth restitution would it not?

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Godly sorrow working a repentance unto salvation produces a clearing of wrongdoing.


The state of an unrepentant thief is the opposite of the state of salvation. Salvation is not some abstract positional cloak, rather it is an actual manifest state of purity having been reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

The danger with willful sin after salvation is that it is done with the full knowledge of the truth. That means that one must despise a full knowledge of the light to do it and such an action defiles the heart and to find repentance from such a thing is not going to be easy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If a Christian wanders back into the world of sin he or she can return back to God under the condition of repentance by stopping their sin and repenting....

Peter told him to “repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee” (Acts 8:22)

So repentance for the Christian is necessary when he sins to obtain God's forgiveness, God's pardon.

Therefore the biblcal necessity of repentance, (conditional salvation) is mutually exclusive to the man-made teaching of eternal security (unconditional salvation)

A truly repentant heart would bring forth restitution would it not?

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Godly sorrow working a repentance unto salvation produces a clearing of wrongdoing.


The state of an unrepentant thief is the opposite of the state of salvation. Salvation is not some abstract positional cloak, rather it is an actual manifest state of purity having been reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus Christ.

The danger with willful sin after salvation is that it is done with the full knowledge of the truth. That means that one must despise a full knowledge of the light to do it and such an action defiles the heart and to find repentance from such a thing is not going to be easy.

A Christian's sin would have to bring forth repentance and repentance would require restitution in order for the Christian to remain in a saved position.


Therefore if a Christian does not repent he will fall away into condemnation. A Christian maintaining a saved position is then conditional upon his walking in the light (which includes repentance) so all sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

Eternal security on the other hand issues a guarantee that the Christian is saved whether or not he repents of his sins.

 

[ScottAU]

Unconditional eternal security is a false teaching.

Salvation is a manifest state as opposed to an abstract position. Those who promote unconditional eternal security preach a salvation that is akin to a "package." Salvation is not a package but is an actual state.

Eternal security is true within the context of abiding in Christ. If we abide in Christ then we are eternally secure but abiding is conditional on our will because it is something we choose to do or not.

 

[SolaGratia]

A Christian maintaining a saved position is then conditional upon his walking in the light (which includes repentance) so all sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

Yes, repentance is one of the conditions of salvation. It is a condition (or a state) that every true believer lives in. However, that repentance does not depend on my effort. It is now my nature as a born-again, regenerated Christian to walk in the light where I used to walk in darkness.

That repentance -- that change in life -- depends on the Father's choice, the Son's sacrifice, and the Spirit's preserving and sanctifying work. Because it depends on them, and they never fail, it is secure.

And if I show, by a pattern of sin in my life, that I do not abide in Christ, then what I have proved is that I never truly belonged to Christ in the first place.

 

[ScottAU]

Calvinism teaches uncondtional eternal security because their premise for salvation is that of a judicial book keeping entry via the death of Christ as a Penal Substitution. Thus in essense the track record of Jesus and the sinner are swapped entailing that all future sins are pre-forgiven.

Arminianism on the other hand teaches a conditional eternal security but errs in regards to heart purity. They teach the notion of "sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent" and so long as you are on the repent side when you die you will inherit the kingdom. This notion brings the confusion of people "losing salvation/gaining salvation/losing salvation/gaining salvation."


Both systems are in error because their fundamental approach to repentance is in error. Repentance brings a genuine change of mind whereby one comes into agreement with God in regards to sin, righteousness and judgement. This change of mind ensures that the former rebellion has been forsaken (for if it hasn't then the mind has not really changed).

To turn back to rebellion after repenting is not a small issue because it is a willful trampling of the knowledge of the truth. Such a sin is much worse than the ongoing sin of someone who has never repented. Those who have never repented have never come to a full knowledge of the truth and therefore their sin (while still bringing condemnation) is not from a place of full knowledge. To sin from full knowledge is deadly to the soul because repenting from such a thing is extremely difficult, nigh on impossible. The Bible warns us of this...

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Those are very severe warning which ought not be ignored. Rebellion to God is not a light matter and only "godly sorrow" works repentance unto salvation. Worldly sorrow leads to death.


Am I claiming that there is no hope for one who willfully sins after salvation? No, because anything is possible with God. But it is a very serious and dangerous issue and is not something to be played with. It is very foolish to mock God.

The truth though is that many people who are in deliberate sin (who profess Christ) have never truly repented in the first place. Many people have come to a "notion" of being saved through the false gospel of "confess, trust and receive" where the cross is viewed as an abstract legal transaction effecting a judicial pardon.

Yes, repentance is one of the conditions of salvation. It is a condition (or a state) that every true believer lives in. However, that repentance does not depend on my effort. It is now my nature as a born-again, regenerated Christian to walk in the light where I used to walk in darkness.

That repentance -- that change in life -- depends on the Father's choice, the Son's sacrifice, and the Spirit's preserving and sanctifying work. Because it depends on them, and they never fail, it is secure.

And if I show, by a pattern of sin in my life, that I do not abide in Christ, then what I have proved is that I never truly belonged to Christ in the first place.

Doesn't your doctrine imply a "wait and see attitude" whilst you do nothing?

If repentance has nothing to do with any "effort" on your part then haven't you cast aside "strive to enter in at the strait gate" that Jesus taught? Striving entails effort.

Haven't you also cast aside "God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?" Does not diligence entail effort?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, repentance is one of the conditions of salvation. It is a condition (or a state) that every true believer lives in. However, that repentance does not depend on my effort. It is now my nature as a born-again, regenerated Christian to walk in the light where I used to walk in darkness.

That repentance -- that change in life -- depends on the Father's choice, the Son's sacrifice, and the Spirit's preserving and sanctifying work. Because it depends on them, and they never fail, it is secure.

And if I show, by a pattern of sin in my life, that I do not abide in Christ, then what I have proved is that I never truly belonged to Christ in the first place.

Repentance is totally dependent upon your effort. If it were you that stole the horse, it is completely dependant upon your effort to repent and make resititution. If you do not take the initiative and effort to repent, then no repentance or restitution will ever take place. No one including the Lord repents for you. So it is not God's choice at all if you repent or not, it's all your choice.

Repentance has been commanded and the imperative itself implies the personal ability and responsibility of each person to obey that command. Again, it's not God's responsibility if you obey that command or not. Therefore if you did not repent of stealilng the horse it is no way God's fault or responsibility.

As poster Bornagain pointed out the passage already, the imperative, the personal responsibility was put upon Simon by Peter to pray and repent that God may forgive him of his sin. The imperative was not put upon God to repent for Simon. There is no point or sense in commanding and preaching men to repent if man has no choice in the matter - if repentance was totally dependant upon a choice made by God. The statement in 1 Jn 1:7 that if a Chrisians sins are cleasned or not is predicated upon the conditonal word "IF". The conditonal word if indicates it is solely the Christians choice "IF" he continues to walk in the light or not.

 

[SolaGratia]

Doesn't your doctrine imply a "wait and see attitude" whilst you do nothing?

If repentance has nothing to do with any "effort" on your part then haven't you cast aside "strive to enter in at the strait gate" that Jesus taught? Striving entails effort.

Haven't you also cast aside "God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him?" Does not diligence entail effort?

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Scott.

The answer is, no, this doctrine does not imply a wait and see attitude. My new nature compels me to strive toward perfection in Christ. But that perfection does not come from my effort. It comes from the Spirit's work based on Christ's sacrifice.

I take very seriously Paul's charge to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). But I do so with the full assurance that "it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

There is such assurance in that. He has changed (and continues to change) my will. He really has. I used to be a God-hater who served only myself. He transformed me into a God-lover who desires to serve him. Be he also changed (and continues to change) my work. I don't accomplish anything on my own. He does it. That's what Philippians 2:13 says.

You might say that the only thing I contribute is the submission (which is active), but since he changed my will, he really provided that, too.

He has transformed me into one who diligently seeks him. And then he rewards me for it. What a gracious God he is!

Repentance is totally depended on your effort.

Any repentance that depends on your own effort is filthy rags and will be burned up in judgment. You need a righteousness that is not your own, by which you will attain the resurrection from the dead (Philippians 3:7-11).

Repent of this repentance of your own effort!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Calvinism teaches uncondtional eternal security because their premise for salvation is that of a judicial book keeping entry via the death of Christ as a Penal Substitution. Thus in essense the track record of Jesus and the sinner are swapped entailing that all future sins are pre-forgiven.

Arminianism on the other hand teaches a conditional eternal security but errs in regards to heart purity. They teach the notion of "sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent" and so long as you are on the repent side when you die you will inherit the kingdom. This notion brings the confusion of people "losing salvation/gaining salvation/losing salvation/gaining salvation."

Let me first say I am not Arminian.

Salvation can be gained, lost, regained and even lost again. The prodigal son demonstrates one who was alive (spiritually) left his father and became dead (spiritually) but 'came to himself" and returned to his father was was "alive again"


Having said that, just because a Christian occasionally sins does not mean he goes back and forth between lost and saved everytime he sins. As 1 Jn 1:7 says as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light, even though he occasionally sins, he remains in a saved position for Christ's blood continues to wash away all sin. It is when the Christian altogether quits walking in the light, then his sins are no longer washed away, he becomes lost no longer being without spot and blame, Eph 1:4, 2 Pet 3:4. I have seen those who had quit walking in the light for years come back to walking in the light. There does remain the danger of one who quits walking in the light to never come back to that light as you have pointed out in Heb 6:4-6.



One point to make about the passage of Heb 6:4-6. I have seen "eternal securists" use the passage to try and prove that if any Christian falls away it is IMPOSSIBLE for that Christian to ever come back to Christ and be saved. This is not what the passage is saying.

First, the passage does prove that a Christian (verse 4,5) can fall away,( verse 6).

From Acts 8, Simon fell away but it was not impossible for him to pray and repent for pardon from God.

THis text in Hebrews 6 refers to those that fall away into a state where they are CONTINUOUSLY crucfying and putting to shame Christ, both verbs 'crucify' and 'put' are present tense. CHrist is "the reason" one repents, yet if one finds himself in a state where he is continuously crucifying and putting to shame "the reason", then it will be impossible for him to repent. But if one quits crucifyng and putting to shame "the reason" then one can come to repent.

Any repentance that depends on your own effort is filthy rags and will be burned up in judgment. You need a righteousness that is not your own, by which you will attain the resurrection from the dead (Philippians 3:7-11).

Repent of this repentance of your own effort!

Unfortunately the verse of Isa 64:6 has been taken out of context.....too many times.

The passage is speaking of those in inquity...."our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" and "hast consumed us, because of our iniquities". Israel had turned their back on God and were living in iniquity.

Obedience to God's will is not filthy rags but is called righteousness. So obeying God in repentance is doing God's righteousness.

Note Isa 64:5 that does not get quoted "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways...:"
Note that God meets, entreats, helps those that work HIs righeousness and their righteousness is not treated as filthy rags,

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him".

God accepts those that work His righteousness, it is not treated as filth rags. Therefore repentance is doing God's righteousness, not filthy rags.

If obedience to God's will is filthy rags, then look what that does to the following verses:


Heb 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he filthy rags by the things which he suffered."

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that have filthy rags"

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that have no filthy rags:"

 

[FHII]

I like bold and straight forward answers.... And the answer is yes. Whether or not you steal your neighbor's horse is not an issue of salvation. Neither is repenting of it. At least no more than wearing polyester. Have you stopped wearing mixed cloth?

 

[Rach1370]

You know... a lot can be said on the subject...calvinistic views, arminian views. We can even quote scriptures on the topic...because scripture does indeed talk about this.
But I think when it all comes down to it, we need to step back and consider two things:
God is the only one who knows the exact state of a person's heart...
...and that God pursues his people. A hard hearted, stubborn person, may struggle against God for most of his life...only to finally 'come to the light', so to speak.

 

[ScottAU]

Let me first say I am not Arminian.

Salvation can be gained, lost, regained and even lost again. The prodigal son demonstrates one who was alive (spiritually) left his father and became dead (spiritually) but 'came to himself" and returned to his father was was "alive again"


Having said that, just because a Christian occasionally sins does not mean he goes back and forth between lost and saved everytime he sins. What kind of sin are you talking about here? Occasional adultery, theft, lying, cheating and stealing? As 1 Jn 1:7 says as long as the Christian continues to walk in the light, even though he occasionally sins, he remains in a saved position for Christ's blood continues to wash away all sin. My understanding is that the only "occasional sin" in the Christian walk is that done of ignorance or perhaps complacency. Never willful deliberate unrighteousness engaged from a position of knowledge, for such an action is the opposite of a faith that works by love. It is when the Christian altogether quits walking in the light, then his sins are no longer washed away, he becomes lost no longer being without spot and blame, Eph 1:4, 2 Pet 3:4. I have seen those who had quit walking in the light for years come back to walking in the light. There does remain the danger of one who quits walking in the light to never come back to that light as you have pointed out in Heb 6:4-6.



One point to make about the passage of Heb 6:4-6. I have seen "eternal securists" use the passage to try and prove that if any Christian falls away it is IMPOSSIBLE for that Christian to ever come back to Christ and be saved. This is not what the passage is saying.

First, the passage does prove that a Christian (verse 4,5) can fall away,( verse 6).

From Acts 8, Simon fell away but it was not impossible for him to pray and repent for pardon from God.

THis text in Hebrews 6 refers to those that fall away into a state where they are CONTINUOUSLY crucfying and putting to shame Christ, both verbs 'crucify' and 'put' are present tense. CHrist is "the reason" one repents, yet if one finds himself in a state where he is continuously crucifying and putting to shame "the reason", then it will be impossible for him to repent. But if one quits crucifyng and putting to shame "the reason" then one can come to repent. Interesting. I wasn't aware of the tenses in this passage.

Unfortunately the verse of Isa 64:6 has been taken out of context.....too many times.

The passage is speaking of those in inquity...."our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" and "hast consumed us, because of our iniquities". Israel had turned their back on God and were living in iniquity. Amen to that.

Obedience to God's will is not filthy rags but is called righteousness. So obeying God in repentance is doing God's righteousness.

Note Isa 64:5 that does not get quoted "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways...:"
Note that God meets, entreats, helps those that work HIs righeousness and their righteousness is not treated as filthy rags,

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him".

God accepts those that work His righteousness, it is not treated as filth rags. Therefore repentance is doing God's righteousness, not filthy rags.

If obedience to God's will is filthy rags, then look what that does to the following verses:


Heb 5:8 "Though he were a Son, yet learned he filthy rags by the things which he suffered."

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that have filthy rags"

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that have no filthy rags:"

Thanks for the response.
Hello, hello.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Scott.

The answer is, no, this doctrine does not imply a wait and see attitude. My new nature compels me to strive toward perfection in Christ. But that perfection does not come from my effort. It comes from the Spirit's work based on Christ's sacrifice. Have not you eliminated any "choice" made on your part as to whether to obey God or not? If you cannot "strive" until you have a "new nature" then does not that put a human being on automatic pilot waiting upon God to do something?

I take very seriously Paul's charge to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). But I do so with the full assurance that "it is God who works in you both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). God works in us (ie. His grace has appeared to all men and Jesus is the light that lights all men) and the working out is something we do. God does not do it for us. 2Cor 6:1 specifically speaks about "working together" with God.

There is such assurance in that. He has changed (and continues to change) my will. He really has. I used to be a God-hater who served only myself. He transformed me into a God-lover who desires to serve him. Be he also changed (and continues to change) my work. I don't accomplish anything on my own. He does it. That's what Philippians 2:13 says. I completely agree that we don't change "on our own" but that does not negate effort on our part. God provides the tools but we have to utilise them.

You might say that the only thing I contribute is the submission (which is active), but since he changed my will, he really provided that, too.

He has transformed me into one who diligently seeks him. And then he rewards me for it. What a gracious God he is!


Any repentance that depends on your own effort is filthy rags and will be burned up in judgment. You need a righteousness that is not your own, by which you will attain the resurrection from the dead (Philippians 3:7-11). Jesus said this...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This notion of a foreign righteousness is not Biblical. Sure righteousness is not sourced from within ourselves apart from the grace of God, for essentially we are but light globes (bulbs) to which God provides the electricity. Noah, Daniel and Job had their own righteousness.

Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

The righteous are simply those who do the right thing and doing takes effort.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do we do the right thing? Simple. We submit ourselves to God.

Repent of this repentance of your own effort!

 

[Angelina]

You know... a lot can be said on the subject...calvinistic views, arminian views. We can even quote scriptures on the topic...because scripture does indeed talk about this.
But I think when it all comes down to it, we need to step back and consider two things:
God is the only one who knows the exact state of a person's heart...
...and that God pursues his people. A hard hearted, stubborn person, may struggle against God for most of his life...only to finally 'come to the light', so to speak.

I totally agree with you there Rach...well said!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I like bold and straight forward answers.... And the answer is yes. Whether or not you steal your neighbor's horse is not an issue of salvation. Neither is repenting of it. At least no more than wearing polyester. Have you stopped wearing mixed cloth?

Thievery and being impenitent are matters of salvation, 1 Cor 6:9,10 Rom 2:5 no exceptions

God does not pardon the sins of the impenitent and no unpardon sin enters heaven.

Thanks for the response.

What kind of sin are you talking about here? Occasional adultery, theft, lying, cheating and stealing? My understanding is that the only "occasional sin" in the Christian walk is that done of ignorance or perhaps complacency. Never willful deliberate unrighteousness engaged from a position of knowledge, for such an action is the opposite of a faith that works by love.

A Christian can commit any sin willfully or unknowingly, the issue is will he repent of that sin or continue in that sin. The problem is not that Christians sin, the problem is instead of repenting of the sin they will just lie down and wallow in it, 2 Pet 2:22.

You know... a lot can be said on the subject...calvinistic views, arminian views. We can even quote scriptures on the topic...because scripture does indeed talk about this.
But I think when it all comes down to it, we need to step back and consider two things:
God is the only one who knows the exact state of a person's heart...
...and that God pursues his people. A hard hearted, stubborn person, may struggle against God for most of his life...only to finally 'come to the light', so to speak.

But can a Christian be impenitent of his sin(s) yet still be saved in his impenitence? Rom 2:5 Lk 13:3,5

 

[williemac]

The op correctly defined repentance as a change of mind. There are a variety of things we can possibly change our minds about.

For example, on the day of Pentecost, when the crowd witnessed the manifestation of tongues, they inquired about it. Peter replied by informing them of several things, not the least of which was that they had rejected and killed the one who was sent by God. This cut them to the heart and they asked..'what shall we do?" The reply was to repent and be baptized in His name for the remission of sins.

So they were told to change their mind. About what? Read the context. No mention of turning from sin in it. Peter was not telling them to repent from sin. In fact, he told them that their sins would be remitted (removed). There is a conflict, here with the idea that God will remove sin only on the condition that we quit sinning. Well...if we quit, then there is nothing to be removed.

No, they were cut to the heart on hearing that they had rejected their Messiah. The repentance that Peter told them to do was in that context. Being baptized in His name would be a sign that they had indeed changed their mind about Jesus.

My point? The word "repent" does not mean to quit sinning. Now, if we are told to quit sinning, the proper use of the word would be "repent FROM sinning". The context must reveal what it is that is being repented.

The condition that is to be met for the remission of sin is to repent from one's unbelief. Look at the evidence. In Rom.10:9,10 we find what one can do to be saved. No mention of repentance there. Just faith and confession. But since we know that repentance is required for salvation, then we can understand from that passage that one would need to make the necessary change of mind to arrive at the confession and faith in that context.

The church at large is incorrectly connecting the repentance from sin as a requirement for salvation, in that she is defining this as quitting sinning. No, the quitting of sin is a result of our salvation, not a requirement for it. What it takes to be saved is to come to the acknowledgment that one is a sinner who needs saving. This results in the confession of sin, which leads to forgiveness and remission.

When mixing this stuff together inappropriately, we merely bring ourselves into a performance/salvation rather than a faith/salvation. The two do not mix. We are called to bear fruit. Life comes first, before it can be lived.

Everlasting life is not a loan that needs to be payed for after the fact. It is a free gift.

There is a reason for the word "leaven". It is the mixing together of two concepts. These two concepts are diametrically opposed. We are producing double mindedness by mixing them together. Life is either a free gift or it is not. Jesus said.."freely you have received. Freely give". The only way that life can be removed after it has been given is if it bears absolutely NO fruit.

This subject leads to its logical question, which is just how much sin would it take to lose what God has given? There is no universal agreement on that question. That is because the question itself is faulty. It supposes that sin is what causes the loss of salvation. That is a false premise, on many levels. For (one) example, the old man is positionally dead, crucified with Christ. He arrived there because of our faith in Christ, in His sacrifice for sin. The only way to take him off the cross is to reverse the process. This would require a rejection of the sacrifice through unbelief. Heb.10:39..."...we are not of those who draw back to perdition but of those who BELIEVE to the saving of the soul".

Through faith in Christ, we died for our sin along with Him. Not merely individual sins, but the entire sin nature. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The part of us that is eternal in Him is righteous and holy and cannot sin (Eph.4:24, 1John 3:9). This is the new man, the seed of Christ. Our hope of glory is ..."CHRIST IN YOU". PERIOD!

This is getting long winded, but I must add one more thing. James said faith without works is dead. This is true. It is like saying a glass without water is empty (of water). This is about quantity, by the way, NOT QUALITY!. The above comments and discussions are all about the quality of a Christian's walk. Who here will dare to accuse a brother of having zero fruit? While James was technically correct, Jesus said that there would be various degrees of fruit, some 100, some 60, some 30.

On His judgment seat, He will examine the quality of our works, whether 100, 60, 30, or other, in quantity. And even if some or most of it is found to be inferior..."he himself will be saved, yet as through fire". Why? Because the victory that overcomes the world is not our works..it is our faith (1John5:4). (1John 5:13).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The church at large is incorrectly connecting the repentance from sin as a requirement for salvation, in that she is defining this as quitting sinning. No, the quitting of sin is a result of our salvation, not a requirement for it. What it takes to be saved is to come to the acknowledgment that one is a sinner who needs saving. This results in the confession of sin, which leads to forgiveness and remission.

One does not repent becasue he is already saved he repents in order to be saved. In tha Acts 2 context, in verse 38 the order of the verse puts repentance BEFORE remission of sins/salvation not after.


In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus said except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish, So Jesus put repentaance BEFORE not perishing/saved.


Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

One has not turned to God until lhe first repents.

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

One is still in a state of perishing until he repents, see the case of Simon Acts 8:20-22 he was perishing until he repents.

Rev 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The church at Ephesus had fallen (even though it she had been sealed years earlier, Eph 1:13) and was commanded to rpent else that church located at Ephesus would be removed.

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In 1 Cor 3:15 the "works" in this context refers to converts. If a convert of Paul is judged to be lost, then that convert (work) will burn/be lost and Paul will suffer a sense of loss over that convert (work) but Paul himself will be saved as long as he remains faithful, 1 Cor 9:27



Acts 11:18 repentance is unto life not because one already has life.

 

[williemac]

One does not repent becasue he is already saved he repents in order to be saved. In tha Acts 2 context, in verse 38 the order of the verse puts repentance BEFORE remission of sins/salvation not after.


In Lk 13:3,5 Jesus said except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish, So Jesus put repentaance BEFORE not perishing/saved.


Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

One has not turned to God until lhe first repents.

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

One is still in a state of perishing until he repents, see the case of Simon Acts 8:20-22 he was perishing until he repents.

Rev 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The church at Ephesus had fallen (even though it she had been sealed years earlier, Eph 1:13) and was commanded to rpent else that church located at Ephesus would be removed.

-------------------------------------------------------

In 1 Cor 3:15 the "works" in this context refers to converts. If a convert of Paul is judged to be lost, then that convert (work) will burn/be lost and Paul will suffer a sense of loss over that convert (work) but Paul himself will be saved as long as he remains faithful, 1 Cor 9:27



Acts 11:18 repentance is unto life not because one already has life.

I doubt that you understood what I was sharing. You are still using the word 'repentance' as though it means to stop sinning. That is not what it means. You do not prove its meaning by simply quoting verses using the word.

I am not saying that repentance is not done before salvation. No need to correct me for something I am not saying. I am saying that it means simply, to change one's mind. One absolutely needs to change his mind in order to be saved.

But if we want to talk about the abstaining from sin, we need to recognize why we should. If we attach it to qualification for salvation, we enter into the arena of a cause for boasting...the arena of works/salvation. You really think this is a good plan? The Ephesian church had left their first love. There was no indication that they had fallen into sinful activity. Jesus told them to repent (change) and go back to where they once were. Only they knew what He was talking about. We cannot put words in His mouth or draw conclusions from insufficient evidence. Furthermore, He used figurative language referring to the removal of their candlestick. If you want to translate that into a loss of salvation of the entire congregation, go ahead. But it will never be anything more than an unprovable opinion.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Repent metanoeō :

Thayer's Lexicon:

--To change one's mind,

--Used esp. of those who, conscious of their sins and with manifest tokens of sorrow, are intent on obtaining God's pardon

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G3340&t=KJV


Matthew 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"

Acts 26:20 "But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Luke 13:3,5 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".



Can a Christian steal his neighbors horse, be unrepentant keeping the stolen horse yet maintain his salvation? Or must he do "works meet for repentance" by making reparation by returning the stolen horse to its rightful owner else be lost?

(I used theft of a horse as an example but the main issue is can a Christian commit any sin, remain unrepentant of that sin yet maintain his salvation?)

.
You are mixing turpentine with grape juice

When people were called to repent in the early days of Jesus .... what were they repenting of ??

I do not feel it has anything to do with the horse I stole from my neighbor

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I doubt that you understood what I was sharing. You are still using the word 'repentance' as though it means to stop sinning. That is not what it means. You do not prove its meaning by simply quoting verses using the word.

I am not saying that repentance is not done before salvation. No need to correct me for something I am not saying. I am saying that it means simply, to change one's mind. One absolutely needs to change his mind in order to be saved.

But if we want to talk about the abstaining from sin, we need to recognize why we should. If we attach it to qualification for salvation, we enter into the arena of a cause for boasting...the arena of works/salvation. You really think this is a good plan? The Ephesian church had left their first love. There was no indication that they had fallen into sinful activity. Jesus told them to repent (change) and go back to where they once were. Only they knew what He was talking about. We cannot put words in His mouth or draw conclusions from insufficient evidence. Furthermore, He used figurative language referring to the removal of their candlestick. If you want to translate that into a loss of salvation of the entire congregation, go ahead. But it will never be anything more than an unprovable opinion.

Repentance does mean for one to put an end to sin. If I were a horse thief and I repented of that sin, repentance in no way means I can continue in that sin of stealing horses.

If I "repented" but continued the sin of stealing horses then I never repented.

Thayer defined repentance as:

--To change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

--Conduct worthy of a heart change and abhorring sin


You say repentance does not mean to stop sinning. If that's the case, then what change takes place when a person repents of a sin yet continues to commit that sin?


Obedience in repenting is nothing to boast about. No one can boast about repenting than they can boast about having faith. Anyone that chooses to do so can repent.

Lk 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

When one repents he is only doing his duty, but he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace but not repenting is being derelict in one's duty.

The issue in Rev 2 with the church at Ephesus shows salvation is CONDITIONAL and that church would be lost if they did not obey Christ's command to repent. Their sin was failure in continuing to do the first works.

"....because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

The language is too clear they would be lost if they did not repent, they would fail to overcome, v7.

Will you argue that if they did not repent as commanded by Christ they would still be saved?

Disobedience to Christ is sin, sin is the very reason one is lost, so they could refuse to repent/sin against Christ and still be saved????



So salvation is conditional upon repentance and not an unconditional guarantee eternal security tries to make.

.
You are mixing turpentine with grape juice

When people were called to repent in the early days of Jesus .... what were they repenting of ??

I do not feel it has anything to do with the horse I stole from my neighbor

The purpose of my op was to show that the unconditional guarantee of eternal security is not compatible with biblical repentance.

The idea a Christian can sin, be impenitent of that sin yet be saved is 100% unbiblical.

If a "eternal securest" argues a Christian can sin and not need to repent then he is giving a license to sin which is something many "eternal securests" deny they are doing.