Respect for the Devil ... say what ?????

[Enquirer]

Ok so this is something that I personally have an issue with ... respect for the Devil.
So why the topic ?
Well let's take a look at Jude 1:8 - 10,

Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare
pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like
unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

So the devil is evil and we are commanded to hate evil, but here the context is not evil but office or position.
And in context, we can see that Jude is affirming this.
I would like some thoughtful unemotional responses if you please ... if that's at all possible when discussing the current
subject or object of this world's misery and pain.

If at all possible ... try to "stay on target".

 

[HammerStone]

I don't know about you or others here, but I've always viewed this little episode in Jude as commentary on how we are to deal with Satan. In light of passages like Psalm 75:6-7 and Deuteronomy 1:17, amongst many others, the final condemnation of the devil belongs to God as ultimate Judge.

Michael doesn't waste time bringing accusations or reasoning in the dispute, as the authority is not his nor was it given to him. It is respect in the sense that Satan is quite wise and much smarter than us. In every case outside of Jesus himself, an argument with Satan over Scripture was generally not won by humanity. Instead, we are simply to rebuke him and that's that. I'm reminded of Jesus' admonishment to Peter (Get thee behind me Satan, as the old KJV says). Even though Jesus was who he was, the time was not yet for a final condemnation.

This is a little hard for us to swallow in this day and age where we think everyone can be rehabilitated. Instead, Satan stands condemned already, but the final execution of his condemnation is not yet here.

The context of Jude is always so fascinating to me, because he's very clearly talking about how easy it is to step out of bounds and try to go it our own way. It even happens when people intend good but do not listen to God.

 

[Enquirer]

Agreed, this is a fascinating passage and has always been the "how to" for me when it comes to dealing with the devil.
I find it difficult to call him names and curse him in light of this Scripture.
I look at it from an "office" or "authority" POV, that though he was condemned yet his office or calling still carry weight in the eyes of God.

Romans 11:29 says,

since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.

I know that the context is human but it reads like a flat statement of fact to me.

I'm reminded of how David refused to kill Saul when he had the opportunity and went as far as putting to death the man who killed Saul
and his reasoning was 2 Sam 1:13 - 16,

Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, 'I have killed the LORD's anointed

Satan was called "the anointed cherub that covers" in Ezek 28:14,

You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I had appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

So from that perspective I find "office" or "calling" to be of paramount importance to God, irrespective of the creature involved whether it be
human or otherwise.

Unfortunately, respect for the office can be construed as affection, just as we confuse the word charisma as being one where we view it as
someone with positive qualities ... hitler like satan are charismatic in a sense yet have none.

This calling or office carries with it tremendous weight in both the sight of God including the angels.
Paul speaking to the Corinthians (1 Cor 11:3 - 11), speaking of authority or office says,

That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels (v11).

This tells me that even angels would find rejection of authority or office an offense, thus noting it's importance.

So in conclusion, your post carries further weight for me as per your points of satan already being condemned and our overstepping the
boundaries in our lack of understanding etc.

 

[Wormwood]

I would say that Jude and 2 Peter are primarily attacking false teachers. False teachers lie and conceive things about powers that are far beyond them and that they do not understand. I think that is the ultimate rebuke here. These false teachers are destined for gloomy dungeons of destruction because they lie, boast and spout nonsense about things that would bring them to their faces in terror if they were actually confronted with them. Even Balaam's donkey had more sense than these false teachers.

Thus, we should steer clear of such people lest we get caught up in their judgment.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Hammerstone, Your words: "Michael doesn't waste time bringing accusations or reasoning in the dispute, as the authority is not his nor was it given to him. It is respect in the sense that Satan is quite wise and much smarter than us. In every case outside of Jesus himself, an argument with Satan over Scripture was generally not won by humanity. Instead, we are simply to rebuke him and that's that."

I really have to disagree with your conclusions. We, as believers, can do so much more. Let me share some verses on this subject.

Rom. 8:38 - "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 Co. 6:3 - "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

1 Pet. 3:22 - (speaking of Christ) "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." (when you combine this with

Rom. 8:17 - "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

This means we also inherit the fact that angels, authorities and powers are subject to us as well. That is what spiritual warfare is all about. Here are some more:

Titus 2:13-15 - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Luke 9:1 - "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases."

This isn't something that was just given to the disciples at that time. All of us, as disciples of Christ, are given these same powers and authority. The power and authority of the believer is what the church MUST LEARN and EXERCISE to survive in the latter days. The following passage should be read daily by all christians until it sinks into their souls that we are warriors in a battle for the salvation of the world!

Eph. 6:10-18 - "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For "we" wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (the quote marks on the word 'we" are mine)
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;...

Believers have power when we use His Word in our battles with the devil. Yes, we have the authority to rebuke him. Yes, we have the authority to cast devils out. Yes, we have can have the victory that is ours in Christ but it is a daily battle. This is something we must exercise, you know, "use it or lose it". It is OUR fight, not God's, but He provides us the weapon (His Word) with which to fight the battle. He is not called the Captain of our Salvation for nothing.

Heb. 2:10 - "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

 

[Webers_Home]

-
Were I ever to encounter someone talking to the Devil; reason would
demand that I assume they were schizophrenic. And sometimes I can't
help but wonder if a number of people talking to God aren't just a bit
dingo too. Who really knows what's normal anymore when the human
mind is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue, and not
even all three of those pounds are devoted to cognitive processes.

†. Gen 2:16-17 . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying,
"From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the
knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat
from it you shall surely die."

I strongly suspect that a portion of Adam's death was due to brain damage.

Who am I anyway;
Am I my résumé?
Or am I someone I don't know?

======================================

 

[aspen]

It is not Michaels place to judge the Devil. Satan rebelled against God, not angels. In fact, humans have been more directly affected by the Devil than angels. For me and my response to the Devil, I choose to turn Him over to God.

 

[StarTemple]

David did not kill Saul when he had the chance, because Saul was an anointed of God, and God is who takes out a defector when he chooses. Some say Satan is the anointed cherub of Ezekiel 28:12-19, so being such in this speculation, although Michael will cremate Satan in time, he allows the anointing to run its course as God dictates, not himself. Thus we do not get caught up trying to bring Satan down, or his seed down, before their God appointed time on earth, and in the spirit world, thus we avoid folly.

In time God will deal with this world and with Satan at the same time, one to deposition, one to abyss. Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 20:1-3. In the meantime we do not obey Satan, we just recognize he was a chosen angel who defected into sin and the lie, being the first sinner and the first lair and "he did not stand fast in the truth". In the meantime his is the "ruler of this world" "because it has been delivered" to him; but he will also be "cast out". It has a TIME limit, and it will converge with human world government completion, imo. (Rev17:11-18, Rev16:13-16, Dan11:45, Dan8:25, Dan12:11)

 

[Job one]

Enquirer wrote:

Ok so this is something that I personally have an issue with ... respect for the Devil.
So why the topic ?
Well let's take a look at Jude 1:8 - 10,

Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare
pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like
unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

So the devil is evil and we are commanded to hate evil, but here the context is not evil but office or position.
And in context, we can see that Jude is affirming this.
I would like some thoughtful unemotional responses if you please ... if that's at all possible when discussing the current
subject or object of this world's misery and pain.

If at all possible ... try to "stay on target".

My response:

I am glad that You are having an issue with Jude 1:8-10, for this indicates that you are thinking deeper than many and are seeking understanding and answers. Let us see if we can answer this in a manner that places the point in proper context.

Let us first examine the definitions from the following 2 sources:

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (p. pr. & vb. n.) of Rail.
2. (a.) Expressing reproach; insulting.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
RAIL; RAILING; RAILER,
ral, ral'-ing, ral'-er: To "rail" on (in modern usage "against") anyone is to use insolent or reproachful language toward one.

Once we have a clear definition of the word “railing or to rail” as shown above, we understand that the word denotes insolent, insulting or reproachful language towards another. With that in mind, we should observe that this was one of the vile traits of Lucifer as he postured himself as “the accuser of the brethren”. This offensive trait was not permitted in heaven and he was cast out of heaven along with his many followers. (See Revelation 12:7-9 and Isaiah 14:12)

Now observe the manner in which God spoke to Lucifer in Genesis 3:9-15. It should be so duly noted that God in speaking both to Adam and Eve or even to Lucifer NEVER abandoned his dignity by making any “railing or reproachful accusations” which were the trademark of Lucifer and those who follow him.

Now, let us turn our attention to Matthew chapter 4:3-11. It is also noted that in all Jesus’s communications with Satan, that never at any time did He lose His temper and dignity and lower himself to follow the pattern of the adversary by responding in a reproachful or insolent manner!

Many other examples of Christ’s masterful examples could be used as well, but will not be given at this point.

Michael the Archangel in Jude 1:8-10, likewise followed this divine pattern by not stooping to the satanic level of making a railing accusation against the “chief accuser” no matter how justified he may have been.

Therefore is it not also our individual responsibility as true Christians to emulate the example of God and his beloved son Jesus Christ by never by never disgracing our dignity to the level of Lucifer by making railing accusations against anyone?

This is also one of the reasons that the satanic act of false witness bearing is such a grievous and heinous sin.

The above is not a in depth answer but should at least give in part a proper understanding of why Michael the Archangel acted in the dignified manner in which he did.