A Response to Ricky's documents.
What is the Rapture of the Church? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html
The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.
Response: Nobody here is questioning the "rapture of the Church," to take place at Christ's Coming. The question concerning us is the *timing* of this event. Historically, the "Rapture" is viewed as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Dispensationalists today, ie followers of John N. Darby, believe that the 2nd Coming takes place by a strained definition, separating a "secret coming for the Church" from the "2nd Coming" itself, where the Church comes back with Christ from heaven in a glorious, manifest way.
The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.
Response: This is not proven. While it is true that God's final Judgment is not directed at believers it is also true that believers are here on earth during times when God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers. Our common dwelling on earth between believers and unbelievers necessitates that all experience some of the negative effects of God's wrath, when it is poured out on unbelievers.
For example, Noah and Lot were rescued from the judgments of their era, but they did experience some of the side effects of their deliverance on earth. On the other hand, the Prophet Jeremiah had his reputation salvaged during his ordeal in Jerusalem but was not spared persecution or death during the time of God's wrath being poured out upon Israel.
In no case is any saint in the Bible delivered from tribulation on earth unless it is at the end of their lives or ministry. There is no sudden, indiscriminate “snatching away” of believers from troublous times in order to experience instant glory.
The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
Response: Here the order is quite clear. The dead in Christ must be resurrected before the Rapture of the Church can be experienced. If the resurrection of Christians takes place at the end of the age, ie at the 2nd Coming, then the Rapture of the Church may *not* be "Pretribulational."
It is when Christ returns to save those persecuted and martyred by Antichrist that the resurrection of the saints takes place. See Rev 20. It is therefore at that very time that the Rapture of the Church takes place. In sum….
1) Christ returns on last day of age to raise from the dead Christians martyred by Antichrist.
2) The Rapture of the Church *follows* this resurrection of martyrs killed during the "Tribulation."
The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).
Response: The idea that Christ comes "secretly" to remove the Church in the clouds is a misrepresentation of what this meant in light of Daniel 7. In that passage Daniel presents the Son of Man as coming with the clouds, indicating he is coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth. The Son of Man does not take his people up to the clouds to remain there, but only to transform them into a heavenly army to participate in his Coming. All of this takes place in the same instant.
The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).
Response: Paul called some of his doctrines a "mystery" because it had not yet been shown, in the OT period, how God would include pagan nations among His "People." The Old Covenant had prohibited Israel from having anything to do with the pagan nations.
Neither was it made clear how God would get past human sin to include us in the glorification of His Son. That became apparent when Christ forgave his People on the cross and promised them resurrection from the dead, as well as participation in his own sinless nature.
That is what the Communion represents, a participation in the Divine Nature of Christ. From the perspective of our sin-contaminated, mortal existence today, that is purely a “mystery.” The glorification of the body is something that will be brand new to our experience.
Paul was not, however, given insight into a doctrine that no other apostle was aware of. Jesus spent 3.5 years with his 12 disciples so that they would be prepared to properly represent him, even in imperfect bodies with imperfect minds. They did not need Paul to tell them what Jesus had already told them. Paul merely confirmed to them what they had already been told.
There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).
Response: Those who argue for a "Secret Rapture" who then would deny anybody the responsibility of rebuttal are not being fair. We are encouraged in Scriptures to "test everything."
What is the Rapture of the Church? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html
The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.
Response: Nobody here is questioning the "rapture of the Church," to take place at Christ's Coming. The question concerning us is the *timing* of this event. Historically, the "Rapture" is viewed as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming.
Dispensationalists today, ie followers of John N. Darby, believe that the 2nd Coming takes place by a strained definition, separating a "secret coming for the Church" from the "2nd Coming" itself, where the Church comes back with Christ from heaven in a glorious, manifest way.
The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.
Response: This is not proven. While it is true that God's final Judgment is not directed at believers it is also true that believers are here on earth during times when God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers. Our common dwelling on earth between believers and unbelievers necessitates that all experience some of the negative effects of God's wrath, when it is poured out on unbelievers.
For example, Noah and Lot were rescued from the judgments of their era, but they did experience some of the side effects of their deliverance on earth. On the other hand, the Prophet Jeremiah had his reputation salvaged during his ordeal in Jerusalem but was not spared persecution or death during the time of God's wrath being poured out upon Israel.
In no case is any saint in the Bible delivered from tribulation on earth unless it is at the end of their lives or ministry. There is no sudden, indiscriminate “snatching away” of believers from troublous times in order to experience instant glory.
The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
Response: Here the order is quite clear. The dead in Christ must be resurrected before the Rapture of the Church can be experienced. If the resurrection of Christians takes place at the end of the age, ie at the 2nd Coming, then the Rapture of the Church may *not* be "Pretribulational."
It is when Christ returns to save those persecuted and martyred by Antichrist that the resurrection of the saints takes place. See Rev 20. It is therefore at that very time that the Rapture of the Church takes place. In sum….
1) Christ returns on last day of age to raise from the dead Christians martyred by Antichrist.
2) The Rapture of the Church *follows* this resurrection of martyrs killed during the "Tribulation."
The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).
Response: The idea that Christ comes "secretly" to remove the Church in the clouds is a misrepresentation of what this meant in light of Daniel 7. In that passage Daniel presents the Son of Man as coming with the clouds, indicating he is coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth. The Son of Man does not take his people up to the clouds to remain there, but only to transform them into a heavenly army to participate in his Coming. All of this takes place in the same instant.
The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).
Response: Paul called some of his doctrines a "mystery" because it had not yet been shown, in the OT period, how God would include pagan nations among His "People." The Old Covenant had prohibited Israel from having anything to do with the pagan nations.
Neither was it made clear how God would get past human sin to include us in the glorification of His Son. That became apparent when Christ forgave his People on the cross and promised them resurrection from the dead, as well as participation in his own sinless nature.
That is what the Communion represents, a participation in the Divine Nature of Christ. From the perspective of our sin-contaminated, mortal existence today, that is purely a “mystery.” The glorification of the body is something that will be brand new to our experience.
Paul was not, however, given insight into a doctrine that no other apostle was aware of. Jesus spent 3.5 years with his 12 disciples so that they would be prepared to properly represent him, even in imperfect bodies with imperfect minds. They did not need Paul to tell them what Jesus had already told them. Paul merely confirmed to them what they had already been told.
There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).
Response: Those who argue for a "Secret Rapture" who then would deny anybody the responsibility of rebuttal are not being fair. We are encouraged in Scriptures to "test everything."