Response to Ricky on Pretrib

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Randy Kluth

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A Response to Ricky's documents.
What is the Rapture of the Church? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

Response: Nobody here is questioning the "rapture of the Church," to take place at Christ's Coming. The question concerning us is the *timing* of this event. Historically, the "Rapture" is viewed as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists today, ie followers of John N. Darby, believe that the 2nd Coming takes place by a strained definition, separating a "secret coming for the Church" from the "2nd Coming" itself, where the Church comes back with Christ from heaven in a glorious, manifest way.


The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.

Response: This is not proven. While it is true that God's final Judgment is not directed at believers it is also true that believers are here on earth during times when God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers. Our common dwelling on earth between believers and unbelievers necessitates that all experience some of the negative effects of God's wrath, when it is poured out on unbelievers.

For example, Noah and Lot were rescued from the judgments of their era, but they did experience some of the side effects of their deliverance on earth. On the other hand, the Prophet Jeremiah had his reputation salvaged during his ordeal in Jerusalem but was not spared persecution or death during the time of God's wrath being poured out upon Israel.

In no case is any saint in the Bible delivered from tribulation on earth unless it is at the end of their lives or ministry. There is no sudden, indiscriminate “snatching away” of believers from troublous times in order to experience instant glory.


The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

Response: Here the order is quite clear. The dead in Christ must be resurrected before the Rapture of the Church can be experienced. If the resurrection of Christians takes place at the end of the age, ie at the 2nd Coming, then the Rapture of the Church may *not* be "Pretribulational."

It is when Christ returns to save those persecuted and martyred by Antichrist that the resurrection of the saints takes place. See Rev 20. It is therefore at that very time that the Rapture of the Church takes place. In sum….

1) Christ returns on last day of age to raise from the dead Christians martyred by Antichrist.

2) The Rapture of the Church *follows* this resurrection of martyrs killed during the "Tribulation."


The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

Response: The idea that Christ comes "secretly" to remove the Church in the clouds is a misrepresentation of what this meant in light of Daniel 7. In that passage Daniel presents the Son of Man as coming with the clouds, indicating he is coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth. The Son of Man does not take his people up to the clouds to remain there, but only to transform them into a heavenly army to participate in his Coming. All of this takes place in the same instant.

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

Response: Paul called some of his doctrines a "mystery" because it had not yet been shown, in the OT period, how God would include pagan nations among His "People." The Old Covenant had prohibited Israel from having anything to do with the pagan nations.

Neither was it made clear how God would get past human sin to include us in the glorification of His Son. That became apparent when Christ forgave his People on the cross and promised them resurrection from the dead, as well as participation in his own sinless nature.

That is what the Communion represents, a participation in the Divine Nature of Christ. From the perspective of our sin-contaminated, mortal existence today, that is purely a “mystery.” The glorification of the body is something that will be brand new to our experience.

Paul was not, however, given insight into a doctrine that no other apostle was aware of. Jesus spent 3.5 years with his 12 disciples so that they would be prepared to properly represent him, even in imperfect bodies with imperfect minds. They did not need Paul to tell them what Jesus had already told them. Paul merely confirmed to them what they had already been told.


There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

Response: Those who argue for a "Secret Rapture" who then would deny anybody the responsibility of rebuttal are not being fair. We are encouraged in Scriptures to "test everything."
 
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Randy Kluth

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What is the Concept of a Secret Rapture? https://www.gotquestions.org/secret-rapture.html

The secret rapture—usually just called the rapture of the church—is the idea that Christ will come to take believers out of the world before His return with them at the second coming. The secret rapture is “secret” in that no one will see Jesus coming except believers; this is in contrast to the second coming of Christ after the tribulation, when “every eye will see him” (Revelation 1:7).

Response: The assertion that Christ will come for his Church "secretly" is not in Scriptures at all. The idea of a "2-stage" Coming of Christ is unbiblical. Christ is depicted as Coming, in Dan 7, as the Son of Man from heaven, descending to earth in order to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Jesus referred to this as the "last day" of the age.

Secret rapture is a term frequently used as a pejorative by those who deny the idea that the rapture of the church is separate from the second coming of Christ.

Response: If non-biblical arguments are being used to "assert things," rather than "prove them from Scriptures, then such assertions should be treated "derisively." They do not deserve a place in Christian teaching.

“One-coming believers” who deny the rapture put themselves in conflict with the Bible and biblical scholarship, as well as the majority of the evangelical world. Among the arguments they pose are that the word rapture doesn’t appear in the Bible. While it is true that the English word rapture doesn’t appear, the concept of the rapture of the church is certainly present.

Response: This is a diversion. Nobody is arguing the word "rapture" is in the Bible. The argument is whether a "Pretrib Rapture" is being taught in the Bible. It is not.

Neither is Pretribulationism the standard Evangelical belief in the Christian world. Evangelicalism began with the Protestant Reformation, and Pretribulationism did not exist until hundreds of years later in the United Kingdom under the teaching of John N. Darby.

Darby’s Dispensationalism, along with Pretribulationism, were exported to the US by his friends who were interested in Futurism, which is not in itself a problem for me. Darby’s cause was helped in particular by his association with Cyrus Scofield who included Pretribulational doctrine in his popular Scofield Reference Bible.

Dispensationalism has therefore filled an important place of interest in Christians who want to understand the "endtimes." Interest in the future is not, in itself, the problem. It was Darby’s version of the future that was the problem.


First Thessalonians 4:16–17 (the definitive passage on the rapture of the church) says that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive and remain will be “caught up.” The word rapture is derived from rapio (“to catch up or snatch away”), a form of which is found in the Latin Vulgate Bible. To say the rapture won’t happen because the word isn’t found in Scripture is a specious argument. The phrase second coming isn’t found in the Bible, either, but the reality of it certainly is.

Response: What is ignored here is that little phrase "the Lord will descend from heaven." It is *not* being said that the Lord *will not* descend from heaven, or come to the earth. Rather, it is saying he *will* descend from heaven, or come to the earth.

The problem is not whether the word “rapture” is there in the passage. Rather, the question is whether the concept of a Rapture is there in which the Church and Christ do *not* descend from heaven.

If Jesus "descends from heaven" he is coming to the earth. You can't leave heaven unless you land on the earth!

If so, the Rapture of the Church takes place when Christ emerges from heaven to come to the earth. It is a single event, and not spread out over a period of years!


When is the Rapture going to occur in relation to the Tribulation? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-tribulation.html

First, it is important to recognize the purpose of the tribulation. According to Daniel 9:27, there is a seventieth “seven” (seven years) that is still yet to come.

Response: This is not true. This is pure conjecture, and it doesn't make sense. A 70 Weeks period was established to lead to an end point at the end of the 70 Weeks. That end point was realized in Jesus’ generation, 70 Weeks of years after the decree of Artaxerxes was given in 457 BC. To extend this period beyond Jesus’ generation into the distant future makes no sense.

The 70 Weeks were intended to lead to the death of Christ, followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, which took place in 70 AD. There is no future element to the 70 Weeks prophecy.


The primary Scripture passage on the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. It states that all living believers, along with all believers who have died, will meet the Lord Jesus in the air and will be with Him forever. The rapture is God’s removing of His people from the earth. A few verses later, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation, which deals primarily with the time period of the tribulation, is a prophetic message of how God will pour out His wrath upon the earth during the tribulation. It seems inconsistent for God to promise believers that they will not suffer wrath and then leave them on the earth to suffer through the wrath of the tribulation. The fact that God promises to deliver Christians from wrath shortly after promising to remove His people from the earth seems to link those two events together.

Response: That is not said at all. "Wrath," as defined in Scriptures is an expression of divine anger, and saints are often victims of the period of time in which this "wrath" takes place. To keep people from God's "eternal anger" is a given--we are liberated from eternal judgment. But to avoid the problems of tribulation in this life when we are called to live alongside pagans is beyond the scope of God's promises. Jesus said he will keep us from eternal judgment while we live on this present corrupt earth.

Another crucial passage on the timing of the rapture is Revelation 3:10, in which Christ promises to deliver believers from the “hour of trial” that is going to come upon the earth.

Response: The "hour of trial" took place in the time of the Apostle John. Philadelphia was an historical city where Christians had built a Christian community.

Sometimes Christians in various places are promised deliverance from certain trials. Noah was spared from the judgment of the world of his time. Jesus’ disciples were spared from the Roman judgment of 70 AD. None of this is all-encompassing to include all Christian experiences in history.

And it never involved a Rapture to heaven. The only 2 "raptures to heaven" in the Bible, Enoch and Elijah, were not deliverances, but rather, a testimonial to their faithfulness. It is a reward for the believer, as opposed to an escape hatch.

2 Thes 1 portrays the Coming of Christ for his Church as a vindication, rather than as an "escape hatch." If it is an “escape” at all, it is an escape from the mortality of this life, with its various sufferings, so that we can obtain our eternal hope of immortality.

But it is *not* an escape promised to believers every time God sends down judgments upon this sinful world. Even though we’re saved from God’s wrath as Christians, we continue to suffer God’s judgments upon this fallen world, whether wars, natural disasters, or illnesses and deprivations of various kinds.
 

Randy Kluth

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Will Christians see the Antichrist, or will the rapture occur before then? https://www.gotquestions.org/see-the-antichrist.html

We believe that, after the rapture, the seven-year tribulation period that is described in Daniel and Revelation will begin.

Response: There is no 7 year Tribulation Period mentioned in the Bible at all. The 70th Week of Daniel is *not* a "7 Year Reign of Antichrist!"

Since Christians will be raptured before the beginning of the tribulation, we who are alive during the church age will not see the Antichrist’s rise to power.

Response: There is no Scriptural evidence here that Christians will be raptured before the beginning of the Tribulation. It is simply inserted to be so.

The fact that the Antichrist is not revealed until after the rapture is taught in 2 Thessalonians 2. Speaking of the Day of the Lord, Paul writes that the tribulation will not begin until after the Antichrist is already revealed: “That day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God” (verses 3–4).

Response: 2 Thes 2 does *not* teach that the Rapture *precedes* the revelation of Antichrist! In fact, it is quite the opposite--Christ comes for his Church only *after* the Man of Sin is revealed, and ultimately, is destroyed!

Also, the revelation of the Antichrist must come after something else, because right now there is something “holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

Response: The "Restrainer" was taught in the Early Church to represent the Roman imperial rule that was to precede the rise of Antichrist, keeping him delayed until the endtimes.

This document is a statement of personal belief by the authors, and not any kind of proof of their belief from Scriptures. Scriptures are used only to adorn their belief system--not to prove it.
 

Randy Kluth

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What is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ? https://www.gotquestions.org/second-coming-Jesus-Christ.html

The second coming of Jesus Christ is the hope of believers that God is in control of all things, and is faithful to the promises and prophecies in His Word. In His first coming, Jesus Christ came to earth as a baby in a manger in Bethlehem, just as prophesied. Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the Messiah during His birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection. However, there are some prophecies regarding the Messiah that Jesus has not yet fulfilled. The second coming of Christ will be the return of Christ to fulfill these remaining prophecies. In His first coming, Jesus was the suffering Servant. In His second coming, Jesus will be the conquering King. In His first coming, Jesus arrived in the most humble of circumstances. In His second coming, Jesus will arrive with the armies of heaven at His side.

The Old Testament prophets did not make clearly this distinction between the two comings. This can be seen in Isaiah 7:14, 9:6-7 and Zechariah 14:4. As a result of the prophecies seeming to speak of two individuals, many Jewish scholars believed there would be both a suffering Messiah and a conquering Messiah. What they failed to understand is that there is only one Messiah and He would fulfill both roles. Jesus fulfilled the role of the suffering servant (Isaiah chapter 53) in His first coming. Jesus will fulfill the role of Israel’s deliverer and King in His second coming. Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7, describing the second coming, look back to Jesus being pierced. Israel, and the whole world, will mourn for not having accepted the Messiah the first time He came.

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the angels declared to the apostles, “‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven’” (Acts 1:11). Zechariah 14:4 identifies the location of the second coming as the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:30 declares, “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” Titus 2:13 describes the second coming as a “glorious appearing.”

The second coming is spoken of in greatest detail in Revelation 19:11-16, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”


Response: The classic distinction between Jesus' Earthly Coming and his future Heavenly Coming never entailed a 2-stage process involved in the "2nd Coming." That is pure Dispensationalism, originating in around 1830 United Kingdom under the teaching of John N. Darby. Some things he taught were good, such as his Futurism and hope for national Israel. But he combined with his Futurism a mix of personal belief, contaminating it with his own ideas. We need to keep the good and throw out the bad.
 

Zao is life

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A Response to Ricky's documents.
What is the Rapture of the Church? https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

The word rapture does not occur in the Bible. The term comes from a Latin word meaning “a carrying off, a transport, or a snatching away.” The concept of the “carrying off” or the rapture of the church is clearly taught in Scripture.

Response: Nobody here is questioning the "rapture of the Church," to take place at Christ's Coming. The question concerning us is the *timing* of this event. Historically, the "Rapture" is viewed as taking place at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Dispensationalists today, ie followers of John N. Darby, believe that the 2nd Coming takes place by a strained definition, separating a "secret coming for the Church" from the "2nd Coming" itself, where the Church comes back with Christ from heaven in a glorious, manifest way.


The rapture of the church is the event in which God “snatches away” all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period.

Response: This is not proven. While it is true that God's final Judgment is not directed at believers it is also true that believers are here on earth during times when God has poured out His wrath on unbelievers. Our common dwelling on earth between believers and unbelievers necessitates that all experience some of the negative effects of God's wrath, when it is poured out on unbelievers.

For example, Noah and Lot were rescued from the judgments of their era, but they did experience some of the side effects of their deliverance on earth. On the other hand, the Prophet Jeremiah had his reputation salvaged during his ordeal in Jerusalem but was not spared persecution or death during the time of God's wrath being poured out upon Israel.

In no case is any saint in the Bible delivered from tribulation on earth unless it is at the end of their lives or ministry. There is no sudden, indiscriminate “snatching away” of believers from troublous times in order to experience instant glory.


The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50–54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with all living believers, who will also be given glorified bodies at that time. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).

Response: Here the order is quite clear. The dead in Christ must be resurrected before the Rapture of the Church can be experienced. If the resurrection of Christians takes place at the end of the age, ie at the 2nd Coming, then the Rapture of the Church may *not* be "Pretribulational."

It is when Christ returns to save those persecuted and martyred by Antichrist that the resurrection of the saints takes place. See Rev 20. It is therefore at that very time that the Rapture of the Church takes place. In sum….

1) Christ returns on last day of age to raise from the dead Christians martyred by Antichrist.

2) The Rapture of the Church *follows* this resurrection of martyrs killed during the "Tribulation."


The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).

Response: The idea that Christ comes "secretly" to remove the Church in the clouds is a misrepresentation of what this meant in light of Daniel 7. In that passage Daniel presents the Son of Man as coming with the clouds, indicating he is coming to establish God's Kingdom on earth. The Son of Man does not take his people up to the clouds to remain there, but only to transform them into a heavenly army to participate in his Coming. All of this takes place in the same instant.

The doctrine of the rapture was not taught in the Old Testament, which is why Paul calls it a “mystery” now revealed: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Corinthians 15:51–52).

Response: Paul called some of his doctrines a "mystery" because it had not yet been shown, in the OT period, how God would include pagan nations among His "People." The Old Covenant had prohibited Israel from having anything to do with the pagan nations.

Neither was it made clear how God would get past human sin to include us in the glorification of His Son. That became apparent when Christ forgave his People on the cross and promised them resurrection from the dead, as well as participation in his own sinless nature.

That is what the Communion represents, a participation in the Divine Nature of Christ. From the perspective of our sin-contaminated, mortal existence today, that is purely a “mystery.” The glorification of the body is something that will be brand new to our experience.

Paul was not, however, given insight into a doctrine that no other apostle was aware of. Jesus spent 3.5 years with his 12 disciples so that they would be prepared to properly represent him, even in imperfect bodies with imperfect minds. They did not need Paul to tell them what Jesus had already told them. Paul merely confirmed to them what they had already been told.


There is far too much debate over the meaning and scope of the rapture. This is not God’s intent. Rather, the rapture should be a comforting doctrine full of hope; God wants us to “encourage one another with these words” (1 Thessalonians 4:18).

Response: Those who argue for a "Secret Rapture" who then would deny anybody the responsibility of rebuttal are not being fair. We are encouraged in Scriptures to "test everything."
Got Questions website has grown into somewhat of a world-famous "encyclopedia" (it certainly serves as an encyclopedia), and in so doing its founder has appointed himself teacher of the churches of Christ. The problem is that the website often teaches the founder's own interpretations of scripture which are false, for example with regard to the things you have mentioned, so whereas parts of Got Questions' info is sound and good, it's mixed with falsehood and misinformation.

Personally due to the subject in every New Testament verse referring to tribulation, affliction, trouble etc - including the only three times the word megas (great) is used with the word tribulation - I do not understand why anyone ever uses the words the great tribulation in reference to the wrath of God | judgment of God coming upon the world in the first place, but that's just me.​
 

Randy Kluth

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Got Questions website has grown into somewhat of a world-famous "encyclopedia" (it certainly serves as an encyclopedia), and in so doing its founder has appointed himself teacher of the churches of Christ. The problem is that the website often teaches the founder's own interpretations of scripture which are false, for example with regard to the things you have mentioned, so whereas parts of Got Questions' info is sound and good, it's mixed with falsehood and misinformation.

Personally due to the subject in every New Testament verse referring to tribulation, affliction, trouble etc - including the only three times the word megas (great) is used with the word tribulation - I do not understand why anyone ever uses the words the great tribulation in reference to the wrath of God | judgment of God coming upon the world in the first place, but that's just me.​
Thank you, I completely agree with your comments about "Got Questions." I use the website quite a bit, but recognize the bias in some matters. It isn't particularly scholarly, but more a representation of current popular positions with a certain amount of validity.

"Tribulation" with respect to God's Wrath I would refer you to the association of God's "wrath" with God's "punishment." As I've said a number of times on this forum, Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as the punishment of the Jewish People from the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to his Return in glory at the end of the age. Here is the full context with an emphasis on "wrath," or "punishment."

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Consequently, I do identify the "Great Tribuation" with God's Wrath, in particular with respect to Israel's punishment during the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. A side effect of this national punishment meant trouble for Jewish believers, who also lost their homeland with the Roman invasion. They also suffered from Jewish unbelievers who persecuted Jewish believers.

This can be extrapolated and extended to the international Church where Christians generally have the same experience of rejection by their homelands from people who remain unbelievers. It is a lesson for us all that if we count ourselves believers, and turn from our faith to decadence and apostasy, we will be rejected by God and suffer punishment, just as the Jewish people have been experiencing.
 

Zao is life

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As I've said a number of times on this forum, Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as the punishment of the Jewish People from the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to his Return in glory at the end of the age. Here is the full context with an emphasis on "wrath," or "punishment."
Lol. You can say it a million times on this forum or elsewhere and it still won't mean you are right.

Just because you claim that Jesus associated the tribulation | great tribulation He was referring to in Matthew 24:9-31 with the wrath of God that came upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D and since then, doesn't mean it's the case.

It is not the case.

It does not matter what you or I link it to, because ANYONE reading the text without adding his own nonsense to it can see that JESUS LINKED the time of tribulation He was referring to (which Matthew recorded in Matthew 24) to the tribulation of the saints leading up to His return and said that it would be greater than any period of tribulation that had come before it or would be after it.

Revelation 2:21
"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

The above already tells you that "great tribulation" is not reserved for "non-believing Jews".

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and at that time the end will come. 9 At that time they will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 At that time many will stumble and fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, 12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved.

THEREFORE..

when you see the abomination of desolation - spoken about by Daniel the prophet - standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), at that time those in Judea must flee to the mountains ..

.. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short ..

.. Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (-- the parts of Matthew 24:29-31 where the word "tribulation" appears).

"After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.
And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."
-- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15

The above three mentions of great tribulation are the only times that great tribulation is mentioned in the New Testament. (Mark 13:19-20 parallels Matthew 24:21-2).

It has NOTHING to do with what Jesus said about the wrath of God coming upon Jerusalem as recorded by Luke in Luke 21:20-24. Jesus clearly did not say what you say. The New Testament clearly does not teach that great tribulation is the experience either of "non-believing Jews", or of "non-believing" anybodies. What unbelievers experience is God's wrath - which is what Luke 21:23 says was to come upon Jerusalem and the inhabitants of Judea.:-

In the New Testament, and with the exception only of Romans 2:9 and 2 Thess.1:6, tribulation and affliction are always what the saints experience - not the unbelievers:

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:-

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

PERSECUTION

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.​
 
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Randy Kluth

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Lol. You can say it a million times on this forum or elsewhere and it still won't mean you are right.​
I can quote the passage once and others will see I'm right--Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as a *Jewish punishment,* as wrath from God directed against the Jewish People from the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the Return of Christ at the end of the age.
Just because you claim that Jesus associated the tribulation | great tribulation He was referring to in Matthew 24:9-31 with the wrath of God that came upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D and since then, doesn't mean it's the case.​
These are Jesus' words--not mine. Jesus identified the "Great Distress" with God's wrath directed against the Jewish people for having rejected their Messiah and for persecuting those among them who chose to follow him.
It is not the case.

It does not matter what you or I link it to, because ANYONE reading the text without adding his own nonsense to it can see that JESUS LINKED the time of tribulation He was referring to (which Matthew recorded in Matthew 24) to the tribulation of the saints leading up to His return and said that it would be greater than any period of tribulation that had come before it or would be after it.
I did *not* deny that this reality of Jewish Tribulation would impact Jewish believers. I in fact affirmed this, although I pointed out that Jesus' focus of the Great Tribulation was on God's wrath directed against the Jewish People for having abandoned the principles of the Law, and for rejecting Christianity.
Revelation 2:21
"Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

The above already tells you that "great tribulation" is not reserved for "non-believing Jews".​
This is a different context than the one in which Jesus identified a "Great Tribulation" directed against the Jewish People as a whole. You are mixing up contexts. A term used on one context does not always mean the same thing as used in a different context.

In one context the term is used in connection with the Jewish People. In this context, the term is used in connection with corrupt Christians. God's wrath is directed against the disobedient, whether Jews or Christians.
Matthew 24
9 At that time they will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name.
As I said, this tribulation experience of the Jewish People would impact Jewish believers, as well, because Jewish unbelievers, in their sin, demonstrate that sin by attacking Christianity. And believers, as Jews, would also suffer deprivations caused by God's judgment directed against unbelieving Jews. All Jews, believers and unbelievers, would suffer the loss of their country to Roman assaults. I've already stated all this.
13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved.

THEREFORE..

when you see the abomination of desolation - spoken about by Daniel the prophet - standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), at that time those in Judea must flee to the mountains ..

.. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short ..

.. Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (-- the parts of Matthew 24:29-31 where the word "tribulation" appears).

"After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.
And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."
-- Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15

The above three mentions of great tribulation are the only times that great tribulation is mentioned in the New Testament. (Mark 13:19-20 parallels Matthew 24:21-2).​
You are using an illegitimate argument to prove your point--a logical fallacy. There are rules prohibiting interpretive fallacies in which words are taken out of one context and asserted in a different context as if there is one singular meaning and application for a word. You are doing this with "tribulation," claiming that one meaning predominates in each case the word is used.

We are here talking about the "Great Tribulation" Jesus spoke of in his Olivet Discourse. This "tribulation" impacted Jewish believers, but the main focus was on God's wrath directed as the Jewish People who were largely unbelievers ultimately.

The statements could not be clearer. I've quoted them to you, and you simply deny what is said and then try to prove your point by looking up how the word "tribulation" or "great tribulation" is used elsewhere in the Bible. That is an "interpretive fallacy!"

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

This was the Roman assault on Jerusalem 66-70 AD in which both the city and the Temple were destroyed. It was God's wrath against Jewish unbelievers who had abused the Temple worship.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

This is how God's wrath directed against Jewish unbelievers affected Jewish believers. They had to lose their homes in Israel to escape what they were told was punishment directed at the Jewish majority in Israel.

22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This could not be more clear. The "Great Tribulation" Jesus was describing was a "Jewish Punishment!"

23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

This could not be more clear. The "Great Distress" is identified by Jesus as "wrath against this people," the Jews.

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The time frame for this "Jewish Tribulation" clearly began in 70 AD and ends at the end of the present age. It is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age.

Because you rely on an illegitimate methodology for interpretation you are able to deny what Jesus said here. I cannot sanction that, although you have every right to believe what you wish to believe.

What I'm saying here is true, regardless of what you've been taught or regardless of what you wish to believe. Conform to what is said and you won't go wrong--this is not a contest between you and me. This is a challenge over whether we will choose to accept God's word, as written.
 

Zao is life

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I can quote the passage once and others will see I'm right--Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as a *Jewish punishment,* as wrath from God directed against the Jewish People from the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD to the Return of Christ at the end of the age.

These are Jesus' words--not mine. Jesus identified the "Great Distress" with God's wrath directed against the Jewish people for having rejected their Messiah and for persecuting those among them who chose to follow him.

I did *not* deny that this reality of Jewish Tribulation would impact Jewish believers. I in fact affirmed this, although I pointed out that Jesus' focus of the Great Tribulation was on God's wrath directed against the Jewish People for having abandoned the principles of the Law, and for rejecting Christianity.

This is a different context than the one in which Jesus identified a "Great Tribulation" directed against the Jewish People as a whole. You are mixing up contexts. A term used on one context does not always mean the same thing as used in a different context.

In one context the term is used in connection with the Jewish People. In this context, the term is used in connection with corrupt Christians. God's wrath is directed against the disobedient, whether Jews or Christians.

As I said, this tribulation experience of the Jewish People would impact Jewish believers, as well, because Jewish unbelievers, in their sin, demonstrate that sin by attacking Christianity. And believers, as Jews, would also suffer deprivations caused by God's judgment directed against unbelieving Jews. All Jews, believers and unbelievers, would suffer the loss of their country to Roman assaults. I've already stated all this.

You are using an illegitimate argument to prove your point--a logical fallacy. There are rules prohibiting interpretive fallacies in which words are taken out of one context and asserted in a different context as if there is one singular meaning and application for a word. You are doing this with "tribulation," claiming that one meaning predominates in each case the word is used.

We are here talking about the "Great Tribulation" Jesus spoke of in his Olivet Discourse. This "tribulation" impacted Jewish believers, but the main focus was on God's wrath directed as the Jewish People who were largely unbelievers ultimately.

The statements could not be clearer. I've quoted them to you, and you simply deny what is said and then try to prove your point by looking up how the word "tribulation" or "great tribulation" is used elsewhere in the Bible. That is an "interpretive fallacy!"

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

This was the Roman assault on Jerusalem 66-70 AD in which both the city and the Temple were destroyed. It was God's wrath against Jewish unbelievers who had abused the Temple worship.

21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.

This is how God's wrath directed against Jewish unbelievers affected Jewish believers. They had to lose their homes in Israel to escape what they were told was punishment directed at the Jewish majority in Israel.

22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

This could not be more clear. The "Great Tribulation" Jesus was describing was a "Jewish Punishment!"

23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

This could not be more clear. The "Great Distress" is identified by Jesus as "wrath against this people," the Jews.

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The time frame for this "Jewish Tribulation" clearly began in 70 AD and ends at the end of the present age. It is the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age.

Because you rely on an illegitimate methodology for interpretation you are able to deny what Jesus said here. I cannot sanction that, although you have every right to believe what you wish to believe.

What I'm saying here is true, regardless of what you've been taught or regardless of what you wish to believe. Conform to what is said and you won't go wrong--this is not a contest between you and me. This is a challenge over whether we will choose to accept God's word, as written.
Whether great distress produced by God's wrath coming upon a people or great distress that is experienced by the saints when - as Jesus said - WE will be delivered up to tribulation and killed for His name's sake, great distress is great distress.

Your argument is illogical, as well as invalid, because Jesus did not link the great tribulation of His disciples that He spoke about (and Matthew recorded in Matthew 24:9-31) to God's wrath coming upon Jerusalem and the inhabitants of Judea that He also spoke about (and Luke recorded in Luke 21:23). YOU (and many others besides you) are misquoting Jesus by misquoting what His apostles wrote about what He said - after you have completely conflated tribulation with wrath.

It's your methodology of interpretation that is flawed because your methodology changes the meaning of the words that are written in the scriptures to suit your desired outcome. The context of what Jesus was saying and Matthew recorded, was the tribulation of the end of the Age that the disciples would experience for His name's sake. There is no wrath upon Jerusalem in that context. No kudos for ignoring the real context of Matthew 24:9-31 and changing it to suit your own re-definition of what great tribulation is referring to in the context of Matthew 24:9-31.

@Randy Kluth Why do you bother publicly criticizing Got Questions' Ricky for his flawed interpretations of scripture when the basis of his flawed interpretation is the same as yours - the conflating of the great tribulation with the wrath of God?
 
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Randy Kluth

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Your argument is illogical, as well as invalid, because Jesus did not link the great tribulation of His disciples that He spoke about (and Matthew recorded in Matthew 24:9-31) to God's wrath coming upon Jerusalem and the inhabitants of Judea that He also spoke about (and Luke recorded in Luke 21:23). YOU (and many others besides you) are misquoting Jesus by misquoting what His apostles wrote about what He said - after you have completely conflated tribulation with wrath.
I quoted the passage to you--you can believe what you want. "Great Tribulation" is associated with God's "Wrath," yes. And the "Wrath" is identified as a "punishment" upon the Jewish People.

That Jewish believers suffered in the process, or suffered "Tribulation," is obvious. But the "Great Tribulation" Jesus referred to in the Olivet Discourse focused on the experience of the Jewish People who had rejected him, and who were persecuting his people.
It's your methodology of interpretation that is flawed because your methodology changes the meaning of the words that are written in the scriptures to suit your desired outcome. The context of what Jesus was saying and Matthew recorded, was the tribulation of the end of the Age that the disciples would experience for His name's sake.
No, Jesus specifically said "all this would happen in this generation." He did not say it would take place at the very end of the age. The Great Tribulation *began* in Jesus' own generation! His own disciples would be the recipients of the sins of Israel for which the nation would be thrown into Great Tribulation.

In reality, Jesus described a "Great Tribulation" for the Jewish People that would stretch from 70 AD to the end of the age. It was the *Jewish Diaspora.* You don't want to believe that--fine. But that's what the account in Luke 21 says.
@Randy Kluth Why do you bother publicly criticizing Got Questions' Ricky for his flawed interpretations of scripture when the basis of his flawed interpretation is the same as yours - the conflating of the great tribulation with the wrath of God?
Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as *God's Wrath directed against the Jewish People who had committed to unbelief. Your ability to ignore that astounds me!

Ricky is a local friend in my church who gave me copies of these "Go Questions" documents to question my Postrib beliefs. My church belongs to a Pretrib denomination, and so he approached me with these claims, expecting a response. I not only gave him a response--I've given it to you, as well.
 

marks

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Response: This is not proven.
It just depends on how closely one holds to the text.

For instance, the sealing of the 144,000. "The servants of God were sealed on their foreheads", is an inclusive statement. "The marbles were gathered and put into the bag", does this mean some of the marbles were gathered? No, all of them, the language is inclusive. Same thing here. So then at this time in the world's history, IF you hold to the wording here, there are 144,000 servants of God, and they are being sealed, and they are all of the tribes of Israel.

IF you hold to the specific wording.

The question then is, what happened to the gentiles servants of God? And any more than 144,000 of the Israelites? If there are only 144,000 servants of God, then what happened to the rest?

And there are many things like this. Saying "not proven", this more relates to what your definition of "proof" is, then whether proof exists.

Much love!
 

Zao is life

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The question then is, what happened to the gentiles servants of God?
I don't know. Maybe they're included in the part of the 144,000 who are not Jews (since only Judah is the Patriarch of the Jews, and only Benjamin and Judah were part of the Southern kingdom of Judah).

Nine of the other tribes - including those Levites who served at the temple on Mt Gerizim, ceased being a nation before God around 722 BC. They became scattered among the nations and their descendants intermarried with Gentiles so that you will only find them among Gentiles in the nations if you could find them at all - and their ancestry will be mixed.

So maybe because Paul included Gentile believers in Jesus in the tribes of Israel in both Romans 9:24-26 and Romans 11:17, that's where the Gentiles are. Maybe it's Ephraim being mentioned in the very next verse in Revelation 7 (since he is not mentioned in the 12 tribes):
9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

Maybe this is what Jacob (Israel) meant when on his deathbed he told Joseph:

19 And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He (Manasseh - mentoned in the 12 tribes in Revelation 7) also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother (Ephraim - not mentioned in the 12 tribes in Revelation 7) shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations (Hebrew: m'lo goyim - the fullness of the Gentiles). Genesis 48

The Northern kingdom's 10 tribes became collectively known as Ephraim:

8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people. Isaiah 7

9 And He said, Call his name Not-my-people. For you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1

24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?
25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God." Romans 9

So maybe just as Paul included Gentiles who believe in Jesus in the tribes of Israel, so Gentiles who believe in Jesus are included in the 144,00 of all the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7?
 

Zao is life

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Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation" as *God's Wrath directed against the Jewish People who had committed to unbelief. Your ability to ignore that astounds me!
It astounds me how though nowhere in any text where the words 'great tribulation' are mentioned by Jesus is the context of the text it's found in the 'wrath of God upon the Jews', you can continue to ignore the fact.

Though the context of the text in the three places in the New Testament where the words 'megas thlipsis' (great tribulation) are found is Jesus speaking of the tribulation of His disciples or John seeing a vision of the tribulation of the saints, yet you ignore this and continue to falsely claim - as though you cannot read English - that Jesus identified the Great Tribulation as God's wrath directed against the Jewish people.

You must have another Bible. This is a quote from the Bible:
Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole inhabited earth as a testimony to all the nations, and at that time the end will come. 9 At that time they will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you. You will be hated by all the nations because of my name. 10 At that time many will stumble and fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will appear and deceive many, 12 and because lawlessness will increase so much, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But the person who endures to the end will be saved.

THEREFORE..

when you see the abomination of desolation - spoken about by Daniel the prophet - standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), at that time those in Judea must flee to the mountains ..

.. For at that time there will be great tribulation, unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen. And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short ..

.. Immediately after the tribulation of those days,
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

@Randy Kluth Unlike you I do not ignore what the scripture is saying about great tribulation - I'm ignoring what you say scripture is saying because you have already proved in this thread that you do not know what scripture says about tribulation or the great tribulation, but unlike you because I know what scripture says about tribulation and about great tribulation because I've studied it - and quite obviously - far more thoroughly than you - therefore I know that Jesus did not identify the Great Tribulation as God's wrath directed against the Jewish People who had committed to unbelief as you falsely claim - anywhere in scripture.
 
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Zao is life

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Nine of the other tribes - including those Levites who served at the temple on Mt Gerizim, ceased being a nation before God around 722 BC.​

Why would that have happened?

Much love!
Not that I don't know the answer, but it happened for every reason that Isaiah and other prophets gave as to why it happened. Therefore I'm not going to answer the question. Because it appears to be a leading question, unless you really don't know the answer.

If you don't know why it happened then I suggest you read Isaiah first and then Jeremiah.

Much love.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Whether great distress produced by God's wrath coming upon a people or great distress that is experienced by the saints when - as Jesus said - WE will be delivered up to tribulation and killed for His name's sake, great distress is great distress.

Your argument is illogical, as well as invalid, because Jesus did not link the great tribulation of His disciples that He spoke about (and Matthew recorded in Matthew 24:9-31) to God's wrath coming upon Jerusalem and the inhabitants of Judea that He also spoke about (and Luke recorded in Luke 21:23). YOU (and many others besides you) are misquoting Jesus by misquoting what His apostles wrote about what He said - after you have completely conflated tribulation with wrath.
I don't understand your argument here. The wrath is associated with "great distress" (Luke 21:23). What is the difference between "great distress" and "great tribulation"? Nothing really. So, how are you concluding that tribulation can't be God's wrath? It most certainly can. Sure, a majority of the time the word tribulation is used in relation to persecution and things like that related to believers. But you quoted two verses yourself where it is related to non-Christians, so why do you act as if that can't be the case in Matthew 24:15-21 as well?

Do you not believe the following is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe this is clearly a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21. The similarities are obvious. The differences can easily be attributed to the fact that Luke was writing to a different audience than Matthew or Mark, which was the Gentiles. It would make no sense for Luke to have referred to Daniel's prophecy like Matthew and Mark did when the Gentiles he was primarily writing to would not have been familiar with that.

What Luke 21 shows is that there is a time period called "the times of the Gentiles" which happens after the tribulation/distress/wrath described in Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-24a) and Matthew 24:23-26 describes a time of spiritual tribulation which occurs during that time or at the end of that time before the future return of Christ.

It's your methodology of interpretation that is flawed because your methodology changes the meaning of the words that are written in the scriptures to suit your desired outcome. The context of what Jesus was saying and Matthew recorded, was the tribulation of the end of the Age that the disciples would experience for His name's sake. There is no wrath upon Jerusalem in that context. No kudos for ignoring the real context of Matthew 24:9-31 and changing it to suit your own re-definition of what great tribulation is referring to in the context of Matthew 24:9-31.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

What do you believe the disciples were asking about with their first question (KJV says "when shall these things be?").
 

marks

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Not that I don't know the answer, but it happened for every reason that Isaiah and other prophets gave as to why it happened. Therefore I'm not going to answer the question. Because it appears to be a leading question, unless you really don't know the answer.

If you don't know why it happened then I suggest you read Isaiah first and then Jeremiah.

Much love.
I was interested in what answer you would give. People have given me different answers over the years. To me it's a moot question, because of God's promises. There are many promises and prophecies that let me know Israel remains the chosen nation it was in the past. But I am interested in other people's answers when discussing this.

Let's go to Jeremiah, to one of God's ironclad promises:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Are you saying that this promise will not be kept?

Much love!
 

Zao is life

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I was interested in what answer you would give. People have given me different answers over the years. To me it's a moot question, because of God's promises. There are many promises and prophecies that let me know Israel remains the chosen nation it was in the past. But I am interested in other people's answers when discussing this.

Let's go to Jeremiah, to one of God's ironclad promises:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Are you saying that this promise will not be kept?

Much love!
The ironclad part of the prophecy you quoted above is the word ALL.

God said "I will only cast off ALL the seed of Israel for all that they have done if the ordinances of the sun, the moon and the stars depart from me".

- The word ALL is the very ironclad part of the prophecy which you have chosen to ignore.

Paul stated very clear in Romans 11 that not ALL Israel was saved, and in Romans 9 he stated very clearly that not ALL those who are born of Israel are Israel, confirming Jeremiah's words in the prophecy you quoted.

- The very ironclad part you have chosen to ignore.

Ignorance is bliss among the saints. Of all people in the world who prove that ignorance is bliss, it's Christians.

God's blessings to you, Marks
 

Zao is life

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I don't understand your argument here. The wrath is associated with "great distress" (Luke 21:23). What is the difference between "great distress" and "great tribulation"? Nothing really.
Distress is an emotion. Is tribulation an emotion?

Answer the question please, S.I, so that we can concentrate on the context of the great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24 vs the context of the wrath of God mentioned in Luke 21.

Do you not believe the following is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I believe this is clearly a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-21. The similarities are obvious. The differences can easily be attributed to the fact that Luke was writing to a different audience than Matthew or Mark, which was the Gentiles.

Luke 9:51
"Now when the days drew near for him to be taken up, Jesus set out resolutely to go to Jerusalem."

Luke 17
- on the way to Jerusalem -


"And He said to the disciples, The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and you shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, here! or, behold, there! Do not go away, nor follow.

For as the lightning which lights up, flashing from the one part under heaven, and shines to the other part under heaven, so also shall the Son of man be in His day.

But first He must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be in the days of the Son of man. Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

In that day he who shall be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise, he who is in the field, let him not return to the things behind.

Two shall be in the field, one will be taken, and the other left.
And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them,

Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." (Luke 17:22-26 & 31, 36-37).

The similarities in Luke's gospel of what according to Luke Jesus was saying when He was on His way to Jerusalem are obvious to the record in Matthew's gospel of what Jesus was saying when He was on the Mount of Olives.

So how far do you want to take the similarities between Matthew 21:16-20 and Luke 21:20-24? As far as saying that Jesus said the same things that He said on His way to Jerusalem again when He was on the Mount of Olives?

I know you will, because despite there not being sufficient evidence in the above records that He did say the same things twice, you have already asserted before that He did repeat the above things, and you have asserted this rather than admit that the reason why the synoptic gospels are called "synoptic" is not because they all have the times and days when certain things took place and when certain things were said the same, but because they have the actual things that took place and the actual things that were said the same.

So your entire argument about the similarities between what Luke said about the wrath of God in Luke 21:20-24 and the great tribulation in Matthew 24:16-20 falls flat on the above fact about biblical scripture and the synoptic gospels alone.

But there is more that torpedoes that line of thinking you have. I'll come to it. But let's concentrate on the context of Jesus reference to "great tribulation" in Matthew 24 compared to the context of "wrath upon this people" in Luke 21:20-24.
 
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marks

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- The very ironclad part you have chosen to ignore.
I've had enough of this kind of talk, thanks but no thanks. I think people should feel free to agree or disagree, support or refute, whatever. But I'm not the topic, and you don't know me.
Ignorance is bliss among the saints.
Derision for others isn't a good look.

Much love!