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Revealing the Sons of God.

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by jeffweeder, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    I woke up this morning considering this verse for some reason.

    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    I got to thinking about "how" and "when" are we revealed.


    How? ....v23.
    Through the resurrection of the body---Glorification.
    When? Rev 20
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
    14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
    15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    The opening of the book of life reveals those who are his....yes? The book was closed not revealing anything before the GWT.

    Linking the 2 verses,
    This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all
    who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

    From what i understand these verses to be saying,
    the second coming takes place,
    all in the tomb hear his voice,resurrection ,
    Final judgment, Book of life opened ,
    revealing / Glorification of all the redeemed at the final GWT judgment.

    Other Scriptures to consider..,
    Acts 17
    30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

    Ro 2
    But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    2Tim 4
    I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

    So I guess ive convinced myself that the Lord will come again and his reward will be with him, to render to everyman his Eternal destiny.... on the day the book of life is opened to all, revealing the Sons of God in all their Eternal glory and reward.
  2. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You forget the period of Christ's "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. It happens prior to God's Great White Throne Judgment.

    Christ's coming, then His thousand years reign over the nations, then the final Judgment. That's the order in God's Word.
  3. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    I didnt forget about it, i just dont see any reference in the NT to such a period happening in the future.
    What i do see is the son of man coming to render to everyman..seperate the sheep from the goats at the final judgment.
    That puts the second coming at the GWT, which is after Revelations Millenium.
    Jesus never said anything about a future millenium, but described his own coming being like noahs flood, which swept everyone else away.Heaven and earth will pass away as well.
    So the aftermath of the second coming is no population and no earth. All things are new in the place he has gone to prepare for us, and hes coming soon to deliver.
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Do you have a habit of denying the existence of something only to later admit its existence within the same paragraph? Your "Revelations Millenium" IS... the "thousand years" period written in Revelation 20. The word millennium means a thousand year period.
  5. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    I didnt say i denied its existence. I said i dont see it as happening in the future ,when Christ comes again.
    All the verses i have quoted suggest that Christ comes again to judge all ,at a time of total destruction.This is clearly after the period refered to as millenium.

    To insert a thousand year reign at Christ second coming, would have him only dealing with the righteous when he comes.
    A quick read of those verses shows that he deals with all.
    Peter looked for a new heaven and earth, the home of righeousness at the coming of Christ.

    Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [sup]12 [/sup]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! [sup]13 [/sup]But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
    [sup]14 [/sup]Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, [sup]15 [/sup]and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

    Paul writing about these things..

    This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. [sup]6 [/sup]For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [sup]7 [/sup]and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [sup]8 [/sup]dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [sup]9 [/sup]These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [sup]10 [/sup]when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
  6. Endtime

    Endtime New Member

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    The Sons of God will be revealed at the return of Christ.They are the ones who are worthy to obtain the Resurrection from the dead and the catching up to meet Christ at His coming.

    They will be revealed by Christs Power of Spirit.
  7. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    Yes, that is the "how".
    How do you feel about the "when"...,occuring at the GWT and the opening of the book of life that reveals the redeemed?.

    Not sure what you mean....., but i would say its Jesus bodily return (appearing), that closes the door to salvation and opens the door to our glorification.
  8. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I agree Jeff when Jesus returns, at that moment many down trodden of this age will shine like stars while many of the powerful will become chaff in the wind, The world as we know it will be turned upside down or right side up if you will.

    I have pondered this verse many times as well. What always amazes me is "all creation" awaits, that includes all things even the very stones.

    [sup]40 [/sup]But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Obviously you're confused, because you did it again in the above paragraph.

    You cannot simply deny existence of a thousand years period, and then declare Christ's FUTURE second coming later with "is clearly after the period refered to as millenium".

    Per the flow of the Revelation Scripture, Christ's second coming occurs, and then the "thousand years" period of Rev.20 begins. And then after that thousand years is the time of God's great white throne judgment. That's the proper order per the Scripture. What you've chosen to believe instead is an idea of men that is not written.
  10. jeffweeder

    jeffweeder New Member

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    Cheers Rex ;)
    No I am not confused. Do you understand the point im trying to make ?

    Revelation is clearly not consecutive, but a series of visions that describe events between the first and second coming from different perspectives imho.
    Here is an article that explains my position rather well...http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/sevenparallel.htm
  11. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Shalom, jeffweeder.

    Just some things to think about:

    A. First, we know that the current world in which we live is full of evils.
    B. Second, we know and believe that the future world, the eternal state, will be without any evil element.
    The problem is, how do we get from A to B?
    See, the problem involves the fact that there are prophecies in which the Messiah is in charge and is subjecting the evils within His Kingdom.
    Some say that the prophecies are "spiritually" fulfilled in the present, but there are too many prophecies that cannot be explained away by saying that they are fulfilled "spiritually" or allegorically. Furthermore, over 400 of the prophecies of the Tanakh were fulfilled LITERALLY when Yeshua` was present during His First Advent, and we were promised that Yeshua` would return as He left. Why wouldn't these prophecies that promise His return to RESCUE HIS PEOPLE ISRA'EL BE FULFILLED IN THE SAME LITERAL WAY?
    It makes better sense to see that there will be a Millennium between A and B.

    Consider the following prophecies:

    Psalm 2:1-12
    Isaiah 35:1-10
    Isaiah 40:1-31
    Isaiah 42:1-24:13
    Isaiah 48:1-22
    Isaiah 49:1-26
    Isaiah 52:1-15
    Isaiah 59:20-21:25
    Isaiah 66:1-24
    Ezekiel 36:1-38:29
    Ezekiel 40:1-48:35
    Joel 2:1-3:21
    Obadiah 15-21
    Micah 5:2-15
    Zechariah 2:8-13
    Zechariah 3:8-10
    Zechariah 8:1-23
    Zechariah 12:1-14:21
    Malachi 3:1-4:6

    All of these are Messianic prophecies from the Tanakh that have yet to be fulfilled. PARTS of them may have been fulfilled or have begun to be fulfilled when Yeshua` was here during His First Advent, but much more has NOT YET been fulfilled!

    The character of the Millennium is NOT one of "perfect peace," as some teach. It is a TRANSITIONAL stage in which the Messiah subdues His enemies. The Millennium will be a time of peace FOR HIS PEOPLE, both Isra'elis and Gentiles, but for those OUTSIDE of the Messiah who oppose His reign, they will have no peace, unless they say "Uncle" and knuckle under His leadership! Some will do just that; others won't. In Matthew 25, Yeshua` talks about the separation of the sheep and the goats. That will take place at the BEGINNING of the Millennium. However, the parables of the wheat and tares and the drag-net in Matthew 13 won't take place until the END of the Millennium as part of the process for the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20.

    To get a better handle on this, one should harmonize 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 2 Peter 3:3-13, and Revelation 20-22, using key connectors such as the final Judgment, the GWT, and the destruction of Death.
  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Yeah, I well understand the doctrine of men you're suggesting. It's called Preterism, and it is a false doctrine. Historicism is also very closely allied with it, and I can't really tell the difference between the two most of the time.

    It suggests this timeline roughly...

    29 A.D.......|..... Millennium ................>||< Christ's second coming | Great White Throne Judgment | new heavens, new earth
    Crucifixion.|.......TODAY......................>||<gathering of the Church-| destruction of the wicked.........| God's Eternity

    Several obvious problems with those Preterism and Historicist ideas. A Millennium period is only a thousand years. It's been almost 2000 years since Christ's crucifixion.

    That's why most Preterists and Historicists treat our Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation as just about all... past history. They do that just so it will fit their little paradigm they have created for theirselves, and for those who are foolish enough to join in with them.

    I may look at that article, and I may not. I've heard just about all views of Revelation that one can imagine. Whether you admit holding to Preterism or Historicism, those are the most popular views associated with a Millennium timing being prior to Christ's second coming.

    Furthermore, not ALL the visions given John are out of order per their events. It's the events that determine the order in the first place. And Rev.20 about the future "thousand years" period is given after specific events that take place during the tribulation, with the timeline showing the tribulation is over at that point. After all, Christ's future direct rule on earth is not just a matter written in Rev.20, but in the OT prophets also. So you're not just trying to discount the Rev.20 declaration of when the "thousand years" occurs, but also the many examples in the Books of the OT prophets also. So good luck with that, for some of us have understanding further than just the NT Books.
  13. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    That's some very good questions Jeffweeder... let's first
    understand that there is more than one resurrection.

    The first resurrection is limited to just believers, while the
    second or general resurrection will be believers and also
    non-believers. Let me try to explain. Rev. 20:6 says,

    6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part
    in the first resurrection ; over these the second
    death has no power, but they will be priests of
    God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a
    thousand years.

    These believers are the Overcomers that the whole creation
    is waiting on in Romans 8. These Overcomers will receive
    their adoption, which is, the redemption of their body. Rom.

    23[sup] [/sup] And not only this, but also we ourselves,
    having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we
    ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting
    eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
    redemption of our body.

    The general resurrrection will happen a thousand years
    later as John tells us in Rev. 20:5.

    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life
    until the thousand years were completed.

    John explains one thousand years after the 1st Resurrection
    comes the Great White Throne Judgment, in which ALL the
    (remaining) dead are raised, including believers and the

    Jesus confirms this general resurrection in John 5:28,29,

    28 "Do not marvel at this ; for an hour is
    coming, in which all who are in the tombs
    will hear His voice,
    29 and will come forth ; those who did the
    good deeds to a resurrection of life, those
    who committed the evil deeds to a
    resurrection of judgment.

    Notice this could not be the 1st Resurrection because both
    believers and unbelievers are raised. This is clearly the
    description of the second Resurrection, where all who are
    in the tombs shall come forth for Judgment.

    Paul offers a double witness of the second Ressurection in
    Acts 24:14, 15,

    14 "But this I admit to you, that according
    to the Way which they call a sect I do serve
    the God of our fathers, believing everything
    that is in accordance with the Law and that
    is written in the Prophets ;
    15 having a hope in God, which these men
    cherish themselves, that there shall certainly
    be a resurrection of both the righteous and
    the wicked.

    This can only be referring to the second, not the first resurrection,
    because only "blessed and holy" people are raised the first time. We
    must conclude, then, that not all Christians will be raised in the 1st
    Resurrection. Only the Overcomers that God has chosen.

    The revealing of the Sons of God in Rom. 8:19 will be the next great
    unveiling of the Spirit of God. It is where the Overcomers begin to
    set up the Kingdom of God upon the earth. That is why the WHOLE
    CREATION is waiting for that manifestation to take place. The earth
    will be governed by the Sons of God and there will be peace in the


  14. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    Again we share kinship vision "opinion".
    I had to goggle the link to find it http://www.ukapologe...venparallel.htm
    a basic outlined frame work,

    Any one seen any of these? B)
  15. Axehead

    Axehead New Member

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    So far, I think James Fowler's Revelation Series is the one that most witnesses to my spirit.
    Revelation Series

    Check it out.




  16. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    I took a look Axehead Of course I didn't read it all,,,,,,,, but I did read most of Rev 12 down to where war broke out in heaven,That is how I to see and understand it.

    I disagree with ALL that believe that event is still futuristic. Which BTW is most christians today
  17. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Hi Axehead, Your ( I realize you copied them from Fowler) charts seem to misplace the vials. Does he consider that the "defeat of evil"? I would put Armageddon at that point. I don't think the order is right either, imo.

    You have seals, trumpets, beasts, Babylon, defeat of evil in a seeming order, however I believe that the beasts and Babylon would be interactive with the seals and trumpets and vials. I believe Babylon (the USA) will be destroyed (nuked) just prior to Armageddon. His order could use some "fleshing out", wouldn't you agree?
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You've got a major problem with that theory, because the Revelation 20 Scripture shows the "nations" still existing on earth and ALIVE 'during' Christ's thousand years reign. If you'll look carefully, right after the thousand years Satan is loosed one final time to go deceive those nations to come upon the "breadth of the earth" against the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city". That is PRIOR to God's great white throne judgment.

    Christ also showed in Rev.22:14-15 the unjust still kicking with being outside the gates of the holy city during His thousand years reign.

    That last statement is a false affirmation. The majority of Christ's Church today are awaiting the future tribulation and future return of Christ.
  19. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    And they all believe Revelation 12:7 is a future event as I suspect you do as well.

    I've looked over these prophesy threads and I don't want to comment on something I don't have 100% confidence in the Spirits revelation to me. I am comfortable with Rev 12 and stand behind my previous statement.
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The Rev.12:7 war in Heaven is EASY to recognize as being a specific event for the end of days.

    Dan 12:1
    1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Rev 11:7
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    John 14:29-30
    29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
    30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.

    There's only two time possibilities of Satan being cast down to the earth with his angels. Either of old when he first rebelled against God, or for another later time. The subject flow of the Rev.12:7 forward verses are EASY to determine which...

    Rev 12:7-13:4
    7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Per Job 1 & 2, Satan appeared before God's throne in Heaven to accuse Job which was AFTER he had already rebelled against God in the time of old. But here in Rev.12:8, he is being cast out of "heaven" completely. There's ONLY 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthy one and the heavenly one where God's Abode is along with a place of separation of the pit prison where the devil and his angels now still are. At this Rev.12:7-8 point, Satan and his angels are no longer in that "place" in heaven.

    Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    At this point, the "accuser" (the Devil), is no more found in Heaven to come near God's throne and accuse us before Him, like he did with Job. It will be at that time when Christ's Salvation will be complete in the heavenly, Satan and his angels no longer having a place in that dimension. Because that mentions then that salvation, strength, and the kingdom of our God happens involving Christ, it has to mean Christ had already been crucified and ascended to The Father there. At Satan's original fall, Christ had NOT come yet to die on the cross. So that's easy!

    Rev.12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    That verse is in connection with Satan being cast down to this earth with his angels. Those are the saints that give Witness against him, and they 'overcome' him "by the blood of the Lamb", once again showing this casting out happens at some point AFTER Christ's crucifixion, and not in the time of old when Satan first rebelled against God. That's EASY to grasp too!

    Rev.12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Those in heaven rejoice because the "accuser" isn't allowed there anymore. But for those on earth, woe to them, for the devil is come down to 'them' ON EARTH, and the devil knows he has a "short time". That short time is about the tribulation time Jesus and His Apostles taught for the end of this present world.

    Rev.12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    There's the 3.5 years of Daniel and Rev.13:4-7, which is the equivalent to the 42 months. It's the same 1260 days period God's "two witnesses" are given to prophesy against that beast.

    Rev.12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Satan casts out of his mouth.... water AS a flood after the symbolic 'woman' (God's people). Those waters represent LIES to cause deception of false worship, for false worship to him in place of GOD is what the tribulation is actually about. Because the Faithful will refuse to bow in worship to him when he comes, Satan will then determine to make war against that Faithful remnant of saints, and that's when Christ will step in to end this world.

    Now trying to move ALL those events back to the time of Satan's original rebellion is hilarious. And it proves those who believe that lie either haven't actually studied those events given there, OR... they intentionally are trying to DECEIVE. You choose which.