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Revelation 12 and Daniel 12

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Eric E Stahl, Jan 15, 2014.

  1. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Revelation 12 and Daniel 12


    At the middle of the 7 year tribulation Michael and the good angels cast the devil and the bad angels to the earth. Then Michael comes down to earth and stands for Israel on earth till the end of the great tribulation.

    Revelation 12:7-17
    7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe (3rd mid trib) to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (1260 days), from the face of the serpent.
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
    16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    Daniel 12:1-13
    1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
    5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
    6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, [SIZE=12pt]and [/SIZE]the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. ( This happens 30 days before the devil is cast to the earth and the great persecution begins spoken of in Matthew 24:15-27)



    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. (Matthew 25:31-46 judgment of the sheep and the goats after the tribulation)

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
     
  2. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Eric,

    I'm not sure why we unequivocally trust church lore. People believe all sorts of errant teachings, which includes a seven-year-tribulation. Please consider researching this false doctrine and arriving to the TRUTH of both Daniel 9, and the Tribulation duration, -- which have nothing to do with each other, save the "coming" of the a/c "after" the seventieth week..

    Secondly, I would propose that Daniel 12 parallels Revelation 6-13.


    DaDad
     
  3. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Hi DaDad,

    Daniel 12:6-7
    6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    Daniel 12 deals with the last 1260 days of Israel's last week of years.

    Revelation 6-11:14 deals with first 1260 days while the two witnesses finish their testimony of 1260 days and are called up to heaven at the end of the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe. Then the antichrist takes Jerusalem for 42 months during the great tribulation.


    Eric
     
  4. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Eric,

    Before you start assigning events to the "seven-year-tribulation", shouldn't one first determine whether there are actually seven-years?

    In fact, the scholars agree that Daniel 9 cannot be resolved as you presume, and leave it as the "dismal swamp" of OT prophecy. Perhaps the angelic instructions (i.e., sealed until the time of the end) should be obeyed.


    DaDad
     
  5. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    DaDad,

    Revelation 6-11:14 deals with first 1260 days while the two witnesses finish their testimony of 1260 days and are called up to heaven at the end of the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe Revelation 11:4-14.

    Then the antichrist takes Jerusalem for 42 months during the great tribulation Revelation 11:1-3.

    Eric
     
  6. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Eric,

    If the Daniel 9 seventieth week were the Tribulation week (from where the seven-year-tribulation is based) then I'm quite certain you could explain each aspect of this 9th chapter. And where we could delve into each detail I'd be happy if you could simply resolve how the true text demands TWO Messiahs / mashiyach:

    NKJV

    25 “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street[c] shall be built again, and the wall,[d] even in troublesome times.

    26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;



    RSV
    25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;



    Please note that Newton discounts the first rendering:


    OBSERVATIONS ON DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE OF ST. JOHN
    by Isaac Newton

    [SIZE=11pt]... We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.[/SIZE] ...


    So if Newton and the RSV is correct, did Jesus have an older brother, or two appearances, or what?!?


    DaDad



    PS Please note that mashiyach (H4899) may not mean what you might expect:

    CEV
    9.25 the Chosen Leader: Or “a chosen leader.” In Hebrew the word “chosen” means “to pour oil (on someone’s head).” In Old Testament times it was the custom to pour oil on a person’s head when that person was chosen to be a priest or a king.

    As such should should find 37 citations which are not capitalized, and 2 which are (per a commentator's hidden agenda), with issues typical of the following:

    Lev 4:3
    If the priest that is anointed H4899 do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

    ... and the last I knew, Jesus was never guilty of sin
     
  7. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Daniel 9:24-27
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The people of prince Jesus never destroyed Jerusalem but the people of the prince that shall come will. There are 2 princes.
     
  8. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    The seven weeks (49 yrs.) represents the time from the prophecy until the command was given to rebuild Jerusalem by King Darius, I think. The 62 weeks (434 yrs.) represents the time that Nehemiah started to rebuild until the crucifixion of Christ, imo.
     
  9. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Because you chose to ignore Newton's warning regarding linguistic conventions, please provide ANY citation in ANY civilization at ANY point in world history where (i.e.,) a pair of shoes cost: seven and sixty-two dollars plus tax. (Please feel to use Scripture in your citation.)


    DaDad
    Hi Trekson,

    I would propose there are at least two problems with the "Classical" commentary version which you cite:

    1. Per Walvoord, (Daniel, the Key to Prophectic Revelation), who cites Young, who cites his agreement with Keit and Kliefoth, the literal diction for "weeks" is in the unusual (inconcise) Masculine gender text for this 9th Chapter, -- versus the usual (concise) Feminine gender text found in all other passages, including Daniel, Chapter 10:

    a. "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

    b. "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds., P.218

    The distinction is similar to american slang, where someone might offer a ride in a cool car, and the invitee would quickly grab a hat, coat, and gloves. Only an english novice would make that mistake, and so too, only a Hebrew novice would interpret the inconcise Masculine gender text (i.e., NOT "seven") as though it were the concise Feminine gender text (i.e., "seven").


    2. Per Young: "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224

    As such I would propose that SCRIPTURE provides the literal PROPHETIC command to restore and rebuild the ancient gates of Jerusalem (i.e., Israel). In fact, this issuance is for the year 1924.



    DaDad
     
  10. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, DaDad.

    If I may, please allow me to give you a better perspective on the passage in Daniel 9:24-27:

    First, one should understand what a mashiyach is: A mashiyach is one who is selected by God for a particular task and is anointed or rubbed or painted with the Holy Anointing Oil described in Exodus 30:22-33. God had one so anointed for the position of prophet, priest, or king. That's ANYONE who was so anointed! Aharown Cohen haGadowl (Aaron the High Priest) was a mashiyach. Elishah haNaviy (Elisha the prophet) was a mashiyach. Sha'uwl haMelekh (King Saul) was a mashiyach. Daveed haMelekh (King David) was a mashiyach. Shlomoh haMelekh (King Solomon) was a mashiyach, as were all the dynasty of David who were anointed to be king in Y'hudah (Judah). Thus, if one was anointed to be king, they were the king apparent - selected by God, but whose reign was not yet realized, although once anointed, always anointed. That's why David would not touch King Saul! He was still God's anointed one, and David respected that.

    That term, "Mashiyach," which is a Hebrew term, was translated into the Koine Greek of the New Testament as "Christos," which we have shortened to "Christ" in English. It means the same thing in Greek that "Mashiyach" meant in Hebrew: anointed or rubbed or painted.

    Therefore, using the Greek-English term, there were SEVERAL "christs": Aaron, Elisha, Saul, David, and Solomon, to name a few! This is a VERY important concept to grasp because many put too little or too much stock in this title. Some think of "Christ" as Jesus' last name! Others think "Christ" means that He was the Son of God! Neither position is true. "Christ" is a TITLE, not a "last name!" And, while Yeshua` is indeed the Son of God, that's NOT what His title means. What it DOES mean is that He is God's selection for King! First, as King of the Jews, then as King of all Isra'el, and finally as King of kings - a literal King over many kings, or a World Emperor! Other emperors bore that title in the past, such as Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, and Artaxerxes, king of Persia. (See Daniel 2:37 and Ezra 7:12.) Of course, Yeshua` was anointed for the other two positions as well, namely, prophet and high priest after the order of Malkhiy-Tsedeq (Melchizedek). Thus, He was prophet, high priest, AND King!

    So, to answer your question, no, Yeshua` didn't have an older brother, but He DID have ancestors who were anointed! So, who appeared on the scene 49 years (seven Sevens) after the commandment to restore and rebuild?

    Well, according to history, Cyrus (II) the Great of Persia took personal command of Babylon October 29, 540 B.C. and it was in the first year of his reign over Babylon that he issued the decree:

    Ezra 1:1-6
    1 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
    2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
    3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
    4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
    5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the Lord which is in Jerusalem.
    6 And all they that were about them strengthened their hands with vessels of silver, with gold, with goods, and with beasts, and with precious things, beside all that was willingly offered.

    KJV

    So, using 540 B.C.-539 B.C., what happened in 491 B.C. - 490 B.C.? Well, that was during the life of Z'rubavel (Zerubbabel) who was of the lineage of the kings of Y'hudah. It was during his LONG lifetime that the Temple was rebuilt in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). In fact, this would put it about the time that they began to rebuild again after having been stopped by a letter to Artaxerxes. (See Ezra 4:17 through Ezra 5:2.) Note also that it was at this time that the prophets Chaggay (Haggai) and Z'kharyahu (Zechariah) were given their messages to the people and helped Z'rubavel.

    Oh, and there's no such thing as "capital letters" in Hebrew. That's primarily an English thing. WE capitalize it out of respect for God and His Son.
     
  11. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Both of those Scriptures are related as to timeline for the very end of this world, but where in the world you get the idea that the Archangel Michael is going to come down to this earth per that, I don't know.

    Dan 9:26-27
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
    and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    (KJV)


    The problem some are having with that is that destruction of the city and the sanctuary indeed was... about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. However, those events in red past that moves to a later timeline, the time of the very end of this world.

    "the end therefore shall be with a flood" - what great flood ended the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D.? None! Yet there is a metaphorical flood coming out of the serpent's mouth per Rev.12:15 after the symbolic "woman" there which represents God's people.

    This idea of a metaphorical flood by Christ's enemies was also a matter of prophecy given in Isaiah. Note what the timing of it is...

    Isa 28:1-6
    1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
    2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
    3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:
    4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
    5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
    6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
    (KJV)


    Ephraim is haughty, and God brings this mighty and strong one upon him, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing. For those who know who all Ephraim represents in the last days, this ought to be a wake up prophecy for the end in relation to Rev.12:15. The flood itself is a metaphor, coming 'as'... a flood does. Doesn't mean a real flood, but a flood being used to represent an idea that overflows the people and land like a real flood works. Per Rev.12:15 the symbolic flood comes out of the serpent's 'mouth'. In that same Rev.12 chapter we are shown that serpent is another title for Satan himself. It also speaks of his being cast out of the heavenly with his angels down to the earth, and woe to the people on earth because of it. Has that ever... happened before in history? No. And exactly what comes out of one's mouth? Words. A speaking serpent is a symbolic idea too, and since it represents Satan himself per Rev.12:7, just what KIND of words would that point to? LIES. Thus the kind of overflowing flood for the end.

    So there's one pointer there to the end of this world and definitely not 70 A.D., for this event has never happened to this day. There was no literal flood in 70 A.D. Jerusalem when the Roman army destroyed it. And who could ever say Rev.12:15 pointed back to 70 A.D. since it was given through Apostle John around 96 A.D. when Domitian was Roman emporer?


    "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" - No covenant was made for a period of 7 years after Christ's death on the cross; and the 70 A.D. destruction was already referred to in the previous Dan.9:26 verse remember? And the people of the prince certainly does not mean the people of our Lord Jesus, for the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. were still primarily pagans, not believers on Christ Jesus so that "prince" of Dan.9:26 is talking about a later prince, not Jesus.

    "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" - per the subject of Dan.8 about the transgression involving the sanctuary, and the Dan.11 and 12 Scripture that also refers to it, this subject is linked to that very idea of one coming to end the daily sacrifices and place the abomination that makes desolate. The same "prince" of the Dan.9:26 is carried forward with the "he" of Dan.9:27, the grammar requires it.

    Did any... "prince" in 70 A.D. do this associated with the Roman army? No. Per the Jewish historian Josephus, the Romans tried to get possession of the Jerusalem temple but it burned before they could sieze it. God made sure we'd know what this placing of the abomination that makes desolate is to mean with what Antiochus IV did in 2nd century B.C. It literally involves the placing of an idol in false worship inside a standing temple in Jerusalem. Did the Romans do that in 70 A.D. Jerusalem? No, they did not. They couldn't, because the temple burned down. So each prophetic event has unfolded just as God has said, and the specific conditions set so each event could take place in its proper time and place. At this time today the orthodox Jews have the materials ready to build a third temple in Jerusalem and start up the Old Covenant style worship again. So the times are being set today also still for this Daniel prophecy to unfold as written.

    "even until the consummation," - what's this "until the consummation"? It is translated as "a full end" and "utter end" in other Bible Scripture. It is about a completion. A completion of what? In Dan.12, what end of these things was Daniel asking about, and what did the angel answer him? In that Dan.12 chapter it's about the end of this world, for Daniel certainly did not stand in his lot at the end of days in 70 A.D.!

    "and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." - what God has decreed ("determined") will then be poured. What's that "poured" idea? It's the same word used about God pouring out His judgment upon the earth in several OT Scriptures, even the idea of a melting. So when is God's consuming fire to melt the earth per the OT prophets and NT Apostle Peter? At Christ's second coming. The word for "desolate" is also used in the sense of numbness, to stupify, to be atonished. When God's consuming fire is poured out upon this earth on the last day, who will be stupified and astonished by it? All those on the earth. Did any of that happen in 70 A.D.? Of course not, because we are still here and so are man's works still on the earth, the elements of men's works yet to be destroyed.

    In the next Daniel 10 chapter the viewpoint changes to heavenly order of events that affect the earth's events. Then in Daniel 11 a great detail of what the "prince" does with making a league in Jerualem and ending the daily sacrifice and placing the abomination that makes desolate continues. Then we are told that false one coming to Jerusalem to set up the abomination will come to an end with none helping him.

    Then we are given this...
    Dan.12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    (KJV)


    "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:" - that idea of standing up per the Hebrew means to make a stand. It's even given twice in that passage with "standeth" also, and who he makes a stand for. That's a link to Michael making a stand at Rev.12:7 forward against Satan in the heavenly, with Satan and his angels cast to the earth. Then we are told there will be a time of trouble associated upon God's people with that event, a time which our Lord Jesus also foretold of in Matt.24 and Mark 13, a time of "great tribulation". Our Lord Jesus linked the Daniel prophecy of the abomination of desolation with that also. And notice especially the event right after that in Dan.12:2, what's that about? Exactly when are the books opened and many that sleep in the dust of the earth will awake? Did that ever happen in 70 A.D. Jerusalem? No, of course not.

    Just when... is the time of the reward of everlasting life to Christ's saints on earth? Not until His second coming back to this earth of course.

    So those events in Daniel are not that difficult, they weave together like a finely knit cloth. All one need do is simply pay attention to the object and subject of the Scripture itself in relation to God's Holy Writ as a whole.
     
  12. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi Retrobyter,

    Please allow the following response:


    You are correct in the significance of mashiyach, as amplified by the Contemporary English Version (CEV):

    9.25 the Chosen Leader: Or “a chosen leader.” In Hebrew the word “chosen” means “to pour oil (on someone’s head).” In Old Testament times it was the custom to pour oil on a person’s head when that person was chosen to be a priest or a king.

    Therefore I would argue that a "Jesus" fulfillment is not demanded by Scripture, -- so why (retorical) do most "translations" (actually a false "commentary") distort the seven and the sixty-two to present a purported duration of sixty-nine, doing violence to Scripture, as observed by Newton, other than to (falsely) achieve a "Jesus fulfillment"?!?


    Once again we can turn to the scholars to discover the full implication:

    In his book, "Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation", Walvoord cites Young: "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224

    As such I would propose that Scripture provides a DIRECT issuance of this WORD for the year 1924.


    This should be an elementary dismissal of ancient lore in it's violation of Daniel 12:4 & Daniel 12:9. However, because people (and Presidents) parse words, we should probably delve back into what the scholars (through Walvoord's research) provide:

    "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

    As such, I would propose that interpreting the inconcise Masculine gender text, shibiym, as though it were the concise Feminine gender text (i.e., ~sheba~), results in the same confusion as the guy wanting to ride in a "cool car", but first must retrieve a hat, coat, and gloves. Who but a linguistic novice would make such a mistake?!?


    So finally, when you see the mashiyach uncapitalized in it's other uses, so too it should be uncapitalized in Daniel 9.



    Thanks,
    DaDad
     
  13. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    wow! i would love to discuss this with you sometime. i agree with you (almost - lol). virtually completely. this is very important. Daniel was told to seal up his book (concerning his own fate, as the vision was for many days (ahead for him, but past for us).

    God`s richest blessings to you DaDad.
    since i (still - haha) believe i can show using Daniel and the scriptures, as well as contemporary history of the time that all of Daniel is fulfilled, i believe i can also show that much of Revelation is also fulfilled (though not all, and certainly not the promises of eternity, (The New Heavens and the new Earth) to which many of the prophets looked and recorded). Most of it (Daniel) related to the last days...of the jewish national hegemony (they thought they had) on God`s favor. they understood `the last days...it is not last days for us - at least not in the same way it was for them.

    the writer to the Hebrews (so long ago) understood that the jewish national Covenant and system; about to be replaced by a Global inclusion of people from every kindred and nation....understood the Hebraism `last days`....and he applied it to his day!

    Hebrews 1
    The Supremacy of the Son
    1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

    but we seem to take those passages out of their context and think it is speaking directly to US - i.e: end-times, as they say.
     
  14. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Revelation 12:13
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

    Daniel 12:1
    1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Since the Devil is on earth attacking Israel, Michael will be on earth standing up for Israel.
     
  15. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    the prince who was to come was future to Daniel.
    he was prince Titus, who later became king caesar. his people were the roman soldiers.

    "the people (Romans) of the prince (Titus)that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (Temple); and the end (of Old Covenant; the Temple System and the rebels) thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    this is long past, it is not in our future. the 70th week followed the 69th, just as you would expect it would there is no gap or any unfinished business in those 70 weeks.
    God bless you!
    Poppin,
     
  16. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Hi All,

    Please allow that the seventy "sevens" are NOT sevens. Daniel intentionally uses the inconcise Masculine gender text, shibiym, versus the concise Feminine gender text, (~sheba~). -- Please note that this circumstance is EXCLUSIVE to the Daniel 9. The rest of the Bible AND CHAPTER 10 all use the concise Feminine gender text.

    “...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’” , P.217

    "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

    Walvoord, Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation


    If anyone attempts to assign fulfillments to the seventy "sevens", they would be well served to FIRST assess the TRUE duration.


    DaDad



    PS
    1. Poppin is correct that there is NO GAP between the seven shibiym (masculine text); the sixty-two shibiym (masculine text); and the seventieth shabuwa (feminine text).
    2. Daniel 9:2 does NOT suggest that Daniel read from the book of Jeremiah, but rather the "books" of Psalms, for the correct interpretation.
    3. etc.
     
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, DaDad.


    What was so significant about 1924?! Lenin's death? Stalin's take-over of power? Woodrow Wilson's death? Could you be referring to the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in Turkey? Are you talking about the death ray invented by Harry Grindell Matthews or perhaps the invention of the Caesar salad claimed by Caesar Cardini? Whatever.

    Regarding the word "mashiyach," wouldn't it be wiser to get a definition for a Hebrew word from those who speak Hebrew? It always amazes me how much stock a person will put in study helps written by Gentile Christians about the Hebrew language! Ask a Sabra (Isra'eli national)! (However, if he is not Messianic, DON'T tell him or her that you're a Christian!) The word is not referring to the "pouring of oil"; it's referring to the "RUBBING" it in! It's like the use of cream rinse and conditioner today! You apply it, but you also RUB IT IN, massaging it into one's scalp!

    Get a definition from a study help if you must, but ALWAYS follow the etymology of the word, at least!

    OT:4899 maashiyach (maw-shee'-akh); from OT:4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:
    KJV - anointed, Messiah.

    OT:4886 maashach (maw-shakh'); a primitive root; to rub with oil, i.e. to anoint; by implication, to consecrate; also to paint:
    KJV - anoint, paint.
    (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

    You are gravely mistaken to be accepting the writings of Robert Young. He was PURPOSELY misled by the Hebrew teachers to which he was exposed, for they knew English well enough to know that his "literal translation" was not in keeping with the normative translation between languages. For instance, it's a fallacy to translate a normal narrative in the present tense of Hebrew into the present tense of English. That's NOT how we relate narratives! In English, we relate narratives in the past tense, and readers EXPECT to see the past tense for such communication. To report the narrative differently is to confuse the reader and destroy both the meaning of the text and the intent of the author!

    Furthermore, you have no idea what you're talking about with the masculine and feminine forms of the Hebrew words! That is NOT how Hebrew works! While all things in Hebrew have either a masculine or a feminine gender, adjectives, such as numbers, take the same gender as the word they are modifying. The gender of the number you use when you want to count something depends on the noun's gender you're counting!

    For instance, echad, meaning one, is masculine, but the feminine is achat. Shnayim is the masculine for two, but the feminine is shtayim. It has NOTHING to do with being "inconcise" or "concise!" (Nor is "inconcise" a real word! If you truly mean "concise" as in "short, brief, curt, and terse," then the opposite would be "wordy" or "lengthy" or "verbose.")

    And, the Hebrew word for "seven" is shiv`aah (masculine, pronounced "sheev-AH") or sheva` (feminine, pronounced "SHEH-va").

    Dani'el 9:24-27
    24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha

    l’kalei’ hapesha`
    uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt
    uwlkhapeer `aavon

    uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym
    v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’

    v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
    25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
    26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
    27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt
    zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem:
    Hebrew transliterated from Masoretic Text as found in PC Study Bible


    24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Seveneds
    shiv`iym = seventy
    nechtakh = are-decided
    `al- = upon
    `amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
    v’`al- = and-upon
    `iyr = city
    qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
    l’kalei’ = to-finish
    hapesha` = the-transgression
    uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
    chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
    uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
    `aavon = iniquity
    uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
    tsedeq = righteousness
    `olaamiym = of-ages
    v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
    chaazown = vision
    v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
    v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
    qodesh = holy
    qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
    25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
    v’taskeel = and-understand
    min-= from
    motsaa’ = going-forth
    daavaar = [of]-word
    l’haashiyv = to-restore
    v’livnowt = and-to-build
    Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
    `ad-= unto
    Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
    naagiyd = Prince
    shaavu`iym = seveneds
    shiv`aah = seven
    v’shaavu`iym = and-seveneds
    shishiym = sixty
    uwshnayim = and-two
    taashuwv = again
    v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
    rchowv = avenue
    v’chaaruwts = and-trench
    uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
    haa`itiym: = the-times:
    26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
    hashaavu`iym = the-seveneds
    shishiym = sixty
    uwshnayim = and-two
    yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
    Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
    v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
    low = not
    v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
    v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
    yashchiyt = shall-destroy
    `am = a-people
    naagiyd = [of]-a-prince
    habaa’ = the-comer
    v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
    basheTef = in-a-flood
    v’`ad = and-until
    qeets = end
    milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
    nech’retset = are-decided
    shomeemowt: = desolations:
    27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
    b’riyt = a-covenant
    laarabiym = to-many
    shaavuwa` = sevened
    ‘echaad = one
    vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
    hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-sevened
    yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
    zevach = sacrifice
    uwminchah = and-offering
    v’`al = and-for
    k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
    shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
    m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
    v’`ad- = and-until
    kaalaah = completion
    v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
    titakh = shall-be-poured
    `al- = upon
    shomeem: = desolate:

    24 Seveneds seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…
    to-finish the-transgression
    and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
    and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
    and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
    and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
    and-to-anoint holy of-holies:
    25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto a-messiah prince seveneds seven and-seveneds sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
    26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off a-Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy a-people [of]-a-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
    27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many sevened one and-in-middle [of]-the-sevened he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

    24 [Daniel,] Seventy Sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…
    (1) to-finish the-transgression,
    (2) to make an end of sins,
    (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
    (4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
    (5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
    (6) to anoint Holy of Holies:
    25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto a messiah prince seven Sevens and sixty-two Sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
    26 Then, after the sixty-two Sevens, a-Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy a-people [of]-a-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
    27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many Seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-Seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

    NONE of the words used for "sevens" ("seveneds" as a participle) are feminine. They are ALL masculine! Some participles, like English gerunds, are simply treated as NOUNS! The masculine participle "shaaVuwa`," spelled shin-qamets-vet-shureq-`ayin-patach, does not end in a hei (an "h") as feminine nouns do. It ends with the `ayin! Furthermore, this is supported by its plural form, shaaVu`iym, spelled shin-qamets-vet-qibbuts-ayin-chireq-yod-mem, with the masculine, plural ending.

    These words are referring to Leviticus 25:1-27:34 which talk about the LAND'S shabbat, and the year of Yoviyl (Jubilee), a LONG shofar blast or trumpet blast on a ram's horn!

    Also, this is the SAME word that is used in Genesis 29:27 and 28:

    Genesis 29:16-30
    16 And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel.
    17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.
    18 And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter.
    19 And Laban said, It is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.
    20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.
    21 And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.
    22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place, and made a feast.
    23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.
    24 And Laban gave unto his daughter Leah Zilpah his maid for an handmaid.
    25 And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
    26 And Laban said, It must not be so done in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn.
    27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.
    28 And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.
    29 And Laban gave to Rachel his daughter Bilhah his handmaid to be her maid.
    30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
    KJV


    So, we are reading about SEVEN-YEAR PERIODS OF TIME, GROUPS OF SEVEN YEARS EACH!
     
  18. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Maybe this will help you understand. I hope so.


    Will you believe Jesus himself? Jesus said the war, which came in 70AD, is not the end yet!


    Matthew 24:6-8
    6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, [SIZE=13.5pt]but the end is not yet.[/SIZE]
    7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
     
  19. Poppin

    Poppin New Member

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    Hi Eric.
    But going back to look at the question they actually asked Him, we see it is related directly to the Temple:

    Mark 13
    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple
    1And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!” 2And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

    3And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4“Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?”

    Jesus proceeds to tell them everything about to happen in that region at that time - in their lifetime.
    The whole Roman Empire was already imploding to some degree (per Dan. 2) ; the rebellious Jews who had rejected Jesus did not receive His message that read here today. We read this portion as historical narrative. Jesus was speaking of Herod's Temple, not a temple future even to us.

    Josephus' writings on the Roman-Jewish wars (plural) provide a lot of historical information on that issue precisely.

    It appears Retrobyter reads hebrew. I think he would confirm that a very careful reading of Daniel 12 does not take us to the end of time of the whole world (i.e.: the Day of Judgment & eternity), but rather is explaining the last days of the Jewish national covenant (Mosaic); the end of the Temple era, the last days the writer of hebrews spoke of - warning Jews not to go back to the temple system, since there is no forgiveness of sins there, only in Christ).

    Daniel 12 is describing the final days of Jerusalem as playing any role in God's Plan of redemption, as with the Coming of Jesus there was a literal transfer - to the Heavenly Zion. Jesus told the Samaritan woman the time was coming and was already there when people would not worship the Father in Jerusalem.
    we look to a heavenly city. would you agree, Retrobyter?

    the sign that those things were about to be accomplished was the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel. and we know Daniel 9 speaks of desolations - plural. there were - each conquering kingdom defiled and made desolate in some way...including Herod, btw.

    King Herod is the king of Daniel 11.
     
  20. DaDad

    DaDad Member

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    Are you familiar with the concept proposed by J.R. Church in his book Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms? Secondly, Young observed:

    [SIZE=12pt]"This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." P. 241 [/SIZE]

    Where Church unwittingly provided the solution, Young discerned the text. -- So put the two together!



    If you insist that mashiyach is strictly reserved for Jesus, then please explain why Jesus needs a bullock to be forgiven for his sins:

    Lev 4:3
    If the priest that is anointed H4899 do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.




    John Walvoord, of Dallas Theological Seminary, compiled the opinions of the greatest minds in his book, Daniel, the Key to Prophetic Revelation. Towrard this he cited Young, who in turn cited Keit and Kliefoth:

    [SIZE=12pt]“...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’” P. 217

    “...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” P. 218
    [/SIZE]


    I would argue that the best scholars have once again observed an aspect with they cannot explain, which is easily resolved given the angelic instruction: "shut up and sealed until the time of the end". -- The solution is not ancient, it's approximate to 1948.



    You propose a contradiction. If the Masculine text and the Feminine text are synonymous, then why have TWO WORDS? Clearly Walvoord finds merit in Young, Keit, & Kliefoth's position, as does simple logic.

    [SIZE=12pt]“...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’” P. 217

    “...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” P. 218
    [/SIZE]





    DaDad
     
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