Revelation 13: 18: Number of A Man Or Number of Man

[texian]

Revelation 13: 18: Number of A Man, or Number of Man
Bernard Pyron

On a Christian forum a guy said: "Revelation 13:5-10: "The Beast {666} will exercise his authority for 42 months {Or 1260 days or 3 1/2 times}......He will be given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he will be given authority over *EVERY* tribe, people, language and nation. *ALL*
inhabitants of the earth will worship the Beast {666}--all whose names
have not been written in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb...This
calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the
saints."

He also said ""Rev 13:16,17: "He {The False Prophet} forced everyone... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead. No one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name {666}. 666 is called a "BEAST" 36 {6x6} times in Revelation. The BEAST is a much better name than the antichrist since anti-christ is mentioned 5 times in God's Word {I John 2:18{2X}, 22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7} and each time the word encompasses all who are against Christ. Such as I John 2:18: "Even now many anti-christs have come."

The description of the first beast of Revelation 13 begins in verse 2 as
being like a leopard, a bear, and a lion, which refers to the Daniel 7
beasts, who are the same except for the fourth dreadful and terrible
beast. Then in 13: 3 one of the heads of the first beast was wounded
to death, but his wound was healed and all the world wondered after
the beast.

Then in verses 5 to 7 the first beast is referred to a "he."

The dispensationalist insistence on consistent literalism can mess up
an understanding of what the first beast is.
Calling the first beast a "he" does not necessarily mean this is one
man, the super one man beast. Nor is the second beast of Revelation
13: 11-18 one man, but is a type, representing many false
prophets.

To be consistent with Daniel 2 and Daniel 7, the first beast would be
a government, an empire. There were six main empires before the Cross, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. The last four of these empires that came before the Cross are found in Daniel 2: 31-44. Then the four beasts of Daniel 7: 4-8 represent the last four world empires after the Cross. There were two Catholic empires which came after the Cross, but before these four last empires of Daniel 7. The two Catholic empires were the Holy Roman and Catholic Spanish empires. The four world empires of Daniel 7 are the lion. the bear, the leopard and the beast who is dreadful and terrible.

The head of the beast whose deadly wound was
healed sounds like the nation of Israel, also the little horn of
Daniel 7: 8.

In 2010 some Facebook Remnant people and I looked at Revelation 13: 18, on whether the number 666 is applied to "A man," or to man as all men.

On http://biblos.com/revelation/13-18.htm
A Greek-English Interlinear for the Westcott-Hort Greek, says

"...arithmon (number) tou (of the) thēriou (beast) arithmos (number) gar (for) anthrōpou (of man) estin (it is)..."

It does not say "number of a man." It translates anthropou, from which we get
our anthropology, as man in the abstract.

It happens that the Westcott-Hort for Rev 13: 18 has exactly the same Greek
words as the Textus Receptus.

The Revised Standard Version for Rev 13: 18 has:
"This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the
beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six."

The New International Version for Rev 13: 18 says:
"This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of
the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

The NIV and the Revised Standard Version are based mainly on the Westcott-Hort
Greek text, which is essentially the same, for this verse, as that of the Textus
Receptus, from which the King James is translated. But both these translations
say it is man in the abstract who has the number, and not an individual.

The King James Version for Rev 13: 18 says "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

I joined a Christian Yahoo group in 2010, whichversion, to ask about the Greek in Rev 13: 18.

Here is the response I got from one member who knows more Koine Greek than I do: "The problem is that Greek has no indefinite article, unlike English.
ANQRWPOU may fairly be rendered either "of man" or "of a man." It is
context that then must determine which is the best way to translate the
text. If a specific individual were in mind, Greek would normally use the
definite article (which it does have), but that's the other part of the
problem -- Revelation is hardly written in what anybody would recognize as
standard Greek, even of the Koine period."

Despite all the problems with the New International Version, it has "for it is man's number. His number is 666." A Westcott-Hort Greek-English Interlinear says it is man's number.
John's Greek ""anthropou estin" is not real clear whether he is saying its the number of A man or of man as a species.

The 6,7 and 8 cycle is given in a very brief way in Revelation 17: 11, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
The beast is said to have been in number seven, which is God's rest (Genesis 2:2-3, Hebrews 4: 3, 5). It is implied in Revelation 17: 11 that before the beast was in number seven, it was in number six, which is man's position - in Genesis 1: 26, 31. Man was created on the sixth day, and following the sixth day God rested. God's rest into which those in Christ are to enter is number seven.

Since man's number, before an individual is born again by the Spirit in Jesus Christ, which is God's rest, is number six, 666 refers to unregenerated man or man as a species, anthropos. Our English word "anthropomorphise" means to attribute to a human the traits of an animal, abstract concept or construct, hence, to claim that what is called a beast in prophecy must be one man.
Matthew 24: 11 says "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." A number of other New Testament verses, including Matthew 7: 15, Mark 13: 22-23,Luke 6: 26, II Peter 2: 1, and I John 4: 1, say there are many false prophets. To be consistent with New Testament use of false prophets, the second beast of Revelation 13: 11-18 would refer to many false prophets, not one man.

 

[BibleScribe]

...The head of the beast whose deadly wound was
healed sounds like the nation of Israel, also the little horn of
Daniel 7: 8.
...

There is so much supposition in this article, -- I hardly know where to begin, but let me focus on this one point:


If anyone assigns a fulfillment for one of the seven heads, then they should be able to identify the other six. And where apparently this individual reaches into ancient history all to the Egyptians and Assyrians, -- what keeps him from reaching even further back to the tower of Babel? Doesn't Daniel 2 provide the head of Gold as the first king? And aren't all subsequent?


The seven heads are defined in the Daniel 2:45 sequence of, iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold (i.e., 4,3,5,2,1), for which #5 is further defined in Chapter 7, such that we should see the history of empires to today:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China

And of course there's an 8th that was and is not, for it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc., -- and is the United Nations.



BibleScribe

 

[Comm.Arnold]

There is so much supposition in this article, -- I hardly know where to begin, but let me focus on this one point:


If anyone assigns a fulfillment for one of the seven heads, then they should be able to identify the other six. And where apparently this individual reaches into ancient history all to the Egyptians and Assyrians, -- what keeps him from reaching even further back to the tower of Babel? Doesn't Daniel 2 provide the head of Gold as the first king? And aren't all subsequent?


The seven heads are defined in the Daniel 2:45 sequence of, iron, bronze, clay, silver, gold (i.e., 4,3,5,2,1), for which #5 is further defined in Chapter 7, such that we should see the history of empires to today:


1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China

And of course there's an 8th that was and is not, for it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc., -- and is the United Nations.



BibleScribe

Wow I felt a jolt of goodness just reading that Biblescribe. I have heard those same symbols aligned with those countries before.

 

[BibleScribe]

Wow I felt a jolt of goodness just reading that Biblescribe. I have heard those same symbols aligned with those countries before.

:lol:

... of course it's not just imagination. Daniel 7 offers tangibles such as how England was a god (small "g") among nations (i.e., the sun never set on the British empire), but now it's a mere mortal (given the mind of a man). And the three ribs were chewed on for some 40 years, (Hungary, Berlin, Czechslovakia) but now they're released in preparation for devouring much flesh (attacking Israel). But not to forget, China has four heads (the U.S. has three -- Executive, Legislative, Judicial), and the four wings (the Four Modernizations) propelled this nation into the global market place.

So where I can easily define, document, and defend the prophetic aspects presented by Daniel, it does others little good without these teachings.


BibleScribe

 

[texian]

Empires in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7:
"1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China"

Usually those under some influence from dispensationalism will say
that the empires of Daniel 7 repeat those of Daniel 2, being the Babylonian,
Persian, Greek and Roman empires. But as these four empires are the last
four prior to the Cross, and the Cross happens during the Roman rule, the
four beast empires of Daniel 7 are the four ruling powers before the second
appearance of Christ. There were two empires before Babylon, the Egyptian
and the Assyrian. There were two Roman Catholic empires before the British empire,
the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Spanish rule.

The clay mentioned above is in Daniel 2: 40-43, and the iron represents man's
rule in the Roman empire and the clay is the kingdom of God which began during
the rule of Rome. Verse 44 says in the days of these kings God will set up his
kingdom. This means that the seventh kingdom in that timeline is the kingdom of God.

The third world empire in the modern timeline is Nazi Germany, the leopard, or the
panther, representing blitzkrieg warfare. As such, Nazi Germany has some similarity to
the Greek empire of Alexander the Great, who moved his armies at speeds faster than his opponents.

The mention of the beast empires of the leopard, the bear and the lion in Revelation 13: 2 helps to
identify this first beast as a world empire, not a type of man. The second beast is a type of man. Yet in verses 3, 4, 5, 6,7,and 8 this beast is referred to as a "he," "his," and "him." The "him" is applied to the metaphoric therion and is used within that metaphoric language.

 

[BibleScribe]

Empires in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7:
"1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China"

Usually those under some influence from dispensationalism will say that the empires of Daniel 7 repeat those of Daniel 2, being the Babylonian, Persian, Greek and Roman empires. But as these four empires are the last four prior to the Cross, and the Cross happens during the Roman rule, ...

Hi Texian,

I would propose that many are confused by the "future-present-tense" text used by John. Where most would assume that John is speaking in the "present-tense" regarding the "five have fallen", (presuming it was written for ~70 A.D.) he is in fact speaking for the future. And there is an event that all the earth shall wonder at, -- the prophecy when Russia attacks Israel, as recorded in Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-44, and Revelation 17. Thus:

1. Gold, Babylonian -- has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian-- has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian-- has fallen
4. Iron, Roman-- has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.-- has fallen from pre-eminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- is
-- 7. Leopard, China -- is yet to come and shall remain a little while
-- 8. "dreadful", United Nations -- was and is not, for it has NO geography, NO populous, NO army, etc.

But to further examine the empire of Iron and the empire of Clay, you apparently assert that it's basically a 4a/4b relationship. However, Daniel 2:45 discounts that interpretation by distancing the Clay from the Iron, and thereby creating a distinct FIFTH empire. Thus the ascribed repetition of Daniel 7 is a fallacy for which the Scriptures fail to match that purported ancient history; Daniel 12:4 & 9 denies; but the "divided" empire of the three superpowers (U.S./Russia/China), and the one-world-government (United Nations) fulfill perfectly*.

* Please note that as of August 1993, the United Nations identified the 10 nations.


So while I don't want to discourage you in your error, I would point out that in ~500 B.C., circularly marked cats were imported from Africa, but vertically marked cats were not yet imported from the Far East. Thus the only point of reference for the vertically marked cat which Daniel saw, was the nearest cousin, a circularly marked cat. As such, this animal is NOT a Leopard, bur rather a Tiger, for which the Far East nations identify with (just as we identify with the "eagle"), -- and these nations include China and the two Korea's, for which N. Korea is an ally with China.

Equally, Daniel 11 validates this premise by depicting the king of the south, (the U.S.), with respect to the latitude of the king of the north (Russia), with respect to the longitude of the kings of the east (China). [Please note that this kings of the east may include participation by the conventional war heavily equipped N. Korea, and thus the "kings".]

So I would encourage you to consider evaluating ALL prophetic chapters for this subject range, including Daniel 2, 7, 8, & 11; Revelation 13 & 17; and Ezekiel 38. For they all agree and confirm one another. :)


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Empires in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7:
"1. Gold, Babylonian
2. Silver, Medo/Persian
3. Bronze, Grecian
4. Iron, Roman
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7. Leopard, China"

Usually those under some influence from dispensationalism will say
that the empires of Daniel 7 repeat those of Daniel 2, being the Babylonian,
Persian, Greek and Roman empires. But as these four empires are the last
four prior to the Cross, and the Cross happens during the Roman rule, the
four beast empires of Daniel 7 are the four ruling powers before the second
appearance of Christ. There were two empires before Babylon, the Egyptian
and the Assyrian. There were two Roman Catholic empires before the British empire,
the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Spanish rule.

The clay mentioned above is in Daniel 2: 40-43, and the iron represents man's
rule in the Roman empire and the clay is the kingdom of God which began during
the rule of Rome. Verse 44 says in the days of these kings God will set up his
kingdom. This means that the seventh kingdom in that timeline is the kingdom of God.

The third world empire in the modern timeline is Nazi Germany, the leopard, or the
panther, representing blitzkrieg warfare. As such, Nazi Germany has some similarity to
the Greek empire of Alexander the Great, who moved his armies at speeds faster than his opponents.

The mention of the beast empires of the leopard, the bear and the lion in Revelation 13: 2 helps to
identify this first beast as a world empire, not a type of man. The second beast is a type of man. Yet in verses 3, 4, 5, 6,7,and 8 this beast is referred to as a "he," "his," and "him." The "him" is applied to the metaphoric therion and is used within that metaphoric language.

Dan 7:23-25
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(KJV)

The horns represent 'kings', and the little horn represents another king that arises that will subdue 3 of the other 10 kings. So that's definitely about an entity, a certain man, a beast king, as we're also shown in Rev.17:10-13.

In Matt.24:23-26, Christ revealed it's about a certain man.

In 2 Thess.2:3-4, Apostle Paul revealed it's about a certain man.


Staying within the context of Rev.13 separates the first beast kingdom from the second beast as a man...

Rev 13:3-14
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The word 'his' simply shows possession, like the first beast kingdom is property of the second beast man. The later Rev.13 verses require us to treat it as such.


4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The dragon is the second beast entity, a certain man. It's he that gives power to the first beast, a kingdom.


5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Per Daniel, it's the "little horn" and "vile person" that speaks blasphemies against God. Per 2 Thess.2:3-4, that's who will come to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, exalting himself above all that is called God and that is worshipped.


6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That's about that 'dragon', which is the "little horn" and "vile person" of Daniel. It's the second beast, a certain man.


Rev.13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

The first beast came up out of the sea, but this second beast comes up out of the earth. The comparison with the lamb is a comparison to Christ, since Jesus warned us about the pseudo Christ in Matt.24:23-26, as Paul also did in 2 Cor.11:4 about "the another Jesus".


12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

The second beast, a man, is over his first beast kingdom. He causes those on earth to worship the first beast, which is in the sense of supporting it, working to bring it forth. The first beast working is Globalism, the establishing of a "one world government" over all nations upon the earth. It is that world system which suffers a deadly wound upon one of its heads that is healed by this second beast when he comes.


13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)

The 'fire come down from heaven' most likely represents lightning. The second beast, a man, does this ON the earth, in the sight of men, meaning he is ON the earth doing these miracles and wonders. The miracles and great wonders is the same parallel in Matt.24:24 and 2 Thess.2:9-10.


Thus it is a HUGE MISTAKE to treat that "another beast", a second beast entity, the dragon, a man, as the idea of many men.

We were already revealed by Christ who that "dragon" is in Rev.12:3; Rev.12:9 and Rev.20:2. Yet some just can't seem to listen to our Lord Jesus' testimony about that.

 

[BibleScribe]

Dan 7:23-25
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
...

The question remains, -- how does the dichotomy of FOUR empires agree with FIVE empires? Ref. Daniel 2:45, 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. Clearly both verses are correct, but because Four ≠ Five, someone must explain how it's Four, and also Five.

And where there are Four unique world empires, there's a fifth which is NOT unique because it uses the governance model from the previous. However, this Fifth which is not unique, is distinct. Thus the Daniel 2:45 separation of the Clay from the Iron.

So when we consider this Fifth "divided" empire, we find three superpowers, ALL of which use the Roman Representative Republic model, (i.e., Iron), in this empire of Clay. But again, as Daniel 2:45 provides, it is a distinct empire.


... and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under GOD, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


OR -- some Scriptures are correct, and others incorrect.


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

The beast kingdoms Daniel was given to interpret do not involve 7 different empires, but only 5.


Dan 2:32-44
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, represented the "head of gold'


39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

then another 2nd kingdom of silver, then another one of brass. These were the Medo-Perisa and Macedonian empires consecutively.


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

This 4th beast with the iron was represented by the ancient Roman empire.


41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

This final 5th beast of part iron and part clay is for the days when Christ returns. It is the Rev.13:1 beast kingdom of ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads.


44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(KJV)

How shall ALL of those beast kingdoms 1-4 ALSO be existing when Christ returns, since they were already history? Simple; it's because Dan.2 already told us...


Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

The kingdoms represented by the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold are five kingdoms, ALL... TOGETHER to make up the 5th beast kingdom of part iron and part clay for the last days. Christ is that 'stone' that smites the beast upon its ten toes of part iron and part clay, causing the WHOLE TOGETHER comes tumbling down. The pointer is to ALL nations and peoples on earth as that final 5th beast kingdom iron and clay.


Dan 2:43-45
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

Dan.2:44-45 even repeats the idea of all those beast kingdoms existing for the end, with the beast of iron and clay representing the whole.