Revelation to John and the end of the world

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Tripp1523

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I believe this great event, this "grand finale" is not going to happen. God will be involved in the end of the world but we cannot predict the events surrounding it. This final book in the New Testament is up for debate. Most Satanic organizations understand that this book is a coded letter concerning the Emperor Nero, written by John, and it involved the Christians that were being persecuted at that time. Since this prophesy has been written and included in the New Testament, I imply its there as a historical record but is not to be taken literally.
 

ScottA

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I believe this great event, this "grand finale" is not going to happen. God will be involved in the end of the world but we cannot predict the events surrounding it. This final book in the New Testament is up for debate. Most Satanic organizations understand that this book is a coded letter concerning the Emperor Nero, written by John, and it involved the Christians that were being persecuted at that time. Since this prophesy has been written and included in the New Testament, I imply its there as a historical record but is not to be taken literally.
There is no such thing as "prediction."

That is not what prophecy is. Prophecy is the declaration of what is already written...already finished. That of course sounds incorrect to those who are last to know, last to hear/see the end. However, with God, whom is the creator of all things, there is no time: Just as he describe himself as timeless, not saying I was or will be, but as "I am"...everything within his creation simply "is." It is only within our "created" unreality that we perceive things on a timeline.

Time is an illusion, like a book that is written where the end is not known, not because it is not already written, but because some have not yet read it to the end. But by the prophecy of Christ, we know the end.
 

Tripp1523

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So, given the fact that the truth about time is: All we have is the eternal present. I understand that. But there is a clue, and actually a footnote in some Bibles that when you add the numerical value of the name Nero, you get "666".
 

ScottA

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So, given the fact that the truth about time is: All we have is the eternal present. I understand that. But there is a clue, and actually a footnote in some Bibles that when you add the numerical value of the name Nero, you get "666".
And what are your thoughts on that?
 

Tripp1523

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And what are your thoughts on that?
My thoughts on that are that the events described in the Revelation have already happened. Its true that Nero liked feeding Christians to lions, and as an Emperor he had absolute power to persecute the Christians all he wanted. And he did so with extreme prejudice. When Christians needed to communicate they did so using this coded
And what are your thoughts on that?
I think its a reference to Nero and a confirmation of the period in which it was written. It might have been a great piece of scripture with lots of statements that are truth.
 

Chase200mph

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I am glad I no longer suffer from worshipping death. I always felt like a hypocrite for it because a true believer would just drink from the little polystyrene cup.,....
 

ScottA

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My thoughts on that are that the events described in the Revelation have already happened. Its true that Nero liked feeding Christians to lions, and as an Emperor he had absolute power to persecute the Christians all he wanted. And he did so with extreme prejudice. When Christians needed to communicate they did so using this coded

I think its a reference to Nero and a confirmation of the period in which it was written. It might have been a great piece of scripture with lots of statements that are truth.
It is the providence of an Emperor to dictate his part of history, but the providence of God to dictate history as a whole.

The book of Revelation states the overall scope of what it pertains to, as being: "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this." In other words, it is tells of everything, all of history from beginning to end. Which of course would include the things of Nero's time, being a short synopsis of the overall. The code aspect refers only to that time, though the complete message is for all time.
 

DPMartin

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though there can be sound argument for events already happened in the book of Revelation, it is still a prophecy considering much happened after it was written.

another example of this would be the thousand year rule with an iron fist, the catholic church did that very thing starting in 325 purging any opposition to the Catholicism in its influences in the roman empire and what was once roman empire until European societies started out right public disagreements with the church and the sciences was also gaining ground in the 1300's as an alternative set of beliefs. the church dominated kings and kingdoms for that period of time.
 
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Pharmboy

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The way I understand the Book of the Revelation is as a book particular to an entire genre, known generally as apocalyptic writings. There are a number of these writings and they are similar in form and content. The Book of Revelation has caught the eye of many Christians and non-Christians alike, but few seem to realize it's roots outside of the New Testament. The book contains a large number of references to Old testament imagery, including the dragon, the figures of Christ and angels, the four horsemen, etc... I also think that it's original intent has been lost. Mainly because we no longer share the culture and icons from which the book was written.

There is a list of apocalyptic writings from about the same time, both Jewish and Christian, that might help shed light on the interpretation of the book, but apart from that I don't think people today are going to do much else with it than pass a lot of guesses and be mostly wrong. Which is very offensive to many Christian denominations who have already "figured it out" and incorporated their pet doctrines about it into their gospel message.

Interestingly (and unapologetically), the book uses the same reference point, in terms of cosmology, as the Old Testament. It describes the earth as below and God above it all, in the sky, above the dome that was placed over the earth in the creation (the sun, moon and stars below the dome). The waters above form a crystal pavement in heaven on which the throne of God sits. The water below is rough, the water above is "like a sea of glass" on which people stand around the throne. This cosmology is very common in books of that era. I think the book needs to be researched as literature (a book of symbols) specific to a genre, specific to a time and place in order to be understood. Unfortunately, I don't think much of that culture exists anymore. A few writings here and there.
 

Helen

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I believe the book of The Revelation ( the revelation of Jesus Christ)
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

Has been, is being, and has yet to be..totally fulfilled . He started being unveiled , we see some of His glory unveiled ...we will yet see Him fully unveiled in His fullness.
My two cents. :)
 
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the_sign

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Two reasons why some indulge in the Book of Revelation is that they think it is easier than the Book of Daniel and that they think the Book of Daniel is too hard. There still is finite time that borders the infinite, the junction between this world (age) and the next. There is a definite beginning to the counting of the largest four digit numbers (1,290, 1,335, and 2,300 days); it literally is the countdown (countup) to the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5) here : Free forum : Resurrected and Raptured

If you find this difficult, it centers much upon Daniel 11:21 . . .
 
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epostle1

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though there can be sound argument for events already happened in the book of Revelation, it is still a prophecy considering much happened after it was written.

another example of this would be the thousand year rule with an iron fist, the catholic church did that very thing starting in 325 purging any opposition to the Catholicism in its influences in the roman empire and what was once roman empire until European societies started out right public disagreements with the church and the sciences was also gaining ground in the 1300's as an alternative set of beliefs. the church dominated kings and kingdoms for that period of time.
What a load of crap!!!
 

epostle1

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I believe this great event, this "grand finale" is not going to happen. God will be involved in the end of the world but we cannot predict the events surrounding it. This final book in the New Testament is up for debate. Most Satanic organizations understand that this book is a coded letter concerning the Emperor Nero, written by John, and it involved the Christians that were being persecuted at that time. Since this prophesy has been written and included in the New Testament, I imply its there as a historical record but is not to be taken literally.
Revelation 11:19
Revelation 12:1-17

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, AUG. 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Here is a Vatican translation of the homily Benedict XVI delivered Aug. 15, solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, at St. Thomas of Villanova Parish in Castel Gandolfo.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In his great work "De Civitate Dei," St Augustine says once that the whole of human history, the history of the world, is a struggle between two loves: love of God to the point of losing oneself, of total self-giving, and love of oneself to the point of despising God, of hating others. This same interpretation of history as a struggle between two loves, between love and selfishness, also appears in the reading from the Book of Revelation that we have just heard.

Here, these two loves appear in two great figures. First of all, there is the immensely strong, red dragon with a striking and disturbing manifestation of power without grace, without love, of absolute selfishness, terror and violence.

At the time when St John wrote the Book of Revelation, this dragon represented for him the power of the anti-Christian Roman Emperors, from Nero to Domitian. This power seemed boundless; the military, political and propagandist power of the Roman Empire was such that before it, faith, the Church, appeared as a defenseless woman with no chance of survival and even less of victory.

Who could stand up to this omnipresent force that seemed capable of achieving everything? Yet, we know that in the end it was the defenceless woman who won and not egoism or hatred; the love of God triumphed and the Roman Empire was opened to the Christian faith.

The words of Sacred Scripture always transcend the period in history. Thus, not only does this dragon suggest the anti-Christian power of the persecutors of the Church of that time, but also anti-Christian dictatorships of all periods.

We see this power, the force of the red dragon, brought into existence once again in the great dictatorships of the last century: the Nazi dictatorship and the dictatorship of Stalin monopolized all the power, penetrated every corner, the very last corner. It seemed impossible in the long term that faith could survive in the face of this dragon that was so powerful, that could not wait to devour God become a Child, as well as the woman, the Church. But also in this case, in the end love was stronger than hate.

Today too, the dragon exists in new and different ways. It exists in the form of materialistic ideologies that tell us it is absurd to think of God; it is absurd to observe God's commandments: they are a leftover from a time past. Life is only worth living for its own sake. Take everything we can get in this brief moment of life. Consumerism, selfishness and entertainment alone are worthwhile. This is life. This is how we must live. And once again, it seems absurd, impossible, to oppose this dominant mindset with all its media and propagandist power. Today too, it seems impossible to imagine a God who created man and made himself a Child and who was to be the true ruler of the world.

Even now, this dragon appears invincible, but it is still true today that God is stronger than the dragon, that it is love which conquers rather than selfishness.

Having thus considered the various historical forms of the dragon, let us now look at the other image: the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, surrounded by 12 stars. This is also a multidimensional image.

Without any doubt, a first meaning is that it is Our Lady, Mary, clothed with the sun, that is, with God, totally; Mary who lives totally in God, surrounded and penetrated by God's light. Surrounded by the 12 stars, that is, by the 12 tribes of Israel, by the whole People of God, by the whole Communion of Saints; and at her feet, the moon, the image of death and mortality.

Mary has left death behind her; she is totally clothed in life, she is taken up body and soul into God's glory and thus, placed in glory after overcoming death, she says to us: Take heart, it is love that wins in the end!

The message of my life was: I am the handmaid of God, my life has been a gift of myself to God and my neighbor. And this life of service now arrives in real life. May you too have trust and have the courage to live like this, countering all the threats of the dragon.

This is the first meaning of the woman whom Mary succeeded in being. The "woman clothed with the sun" is the great sign of the victory of love, of the victory of goodness, of the victory of God; a great sign of consolation.

Yet, this woman who suffered, who had to flee, who gave birth with cries of anguish, is also the Church, the pilgrim Church of all times. In all generations she has to give birth to Christ anew, to bring him very painfully into the world, with great suffering. Persecuted in all ages, it is almost as if, pursued by the dragon, she had gone to live in the wilderness.

However, in all ages, the Church, the People of God, also lives by the light of God and as the Gospel says is nourished by God, nourishing herself with the Bread of the Holy Eucharist. Thus, in all the trials in the various situations of the Church through the ages in different parts of the world, she wins through suffering. And she is the presence, the guarantee of God's love against all the ideologies of hatred and selfishness.

We see of course that today too the dragon wants to devour God who made himself a Child. Do not fear for this seemingly frail God; the fight has already been won. Today too, this weak God is strong: he is true strength.

Thus, the Feast of the Assumption is an invitation to trust in God and also to imitate Mary in what she herself said: Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; I put myself at the Lord's disposal.

This is the lesson: one should travel on one's own road; one should give life and not take it. And precisely in this way each one is on the journey of love which is the loss of self, but this losing of oneself is in fact the only way to truly find oneself, to find true life.

Let us look to Mary, taken up into Heaven. Let us be encouraged to celebrate the joyful feast with faith: God wins. Faith, which seems weak, is the true force of the world. Love is stronger than hate.

And let us say with Elizabeth: Blessed are you among women. Let us pray to you with all the Church: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.














 

BreadOfLife

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though there can be sound argument for events already happened in the book of Revelation, it is still a prophecy considering much happened after it was written.

another example of this would be the thousand year rule with an iron fist, the catholic church did that very thing starting in 325 purging any opposition to the Catholicism in its influences in the roman empire and what was once roman empire until European societies started out right public disagreements with the church and the sciences was also gaining ground in the 1300's as an alternative set of beliefs. the church dominated kings and kingdoms for that period of time.
Yikes . . .
 

Sword

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Revelation 11:19
Revelation 12:1-17

CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, AUG. 25, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Here is a Vatican translation of the homily Benedict XVI delivered Aug. 15, solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, at St. Thomas of Villanova Parish in Castel Gandolfo.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In his great work "De Civitate Dei," St Augustine says once that the whole of human history, the history of the world, is a struggle between two loves: love of God to the point of losing oneself, of total self-giving, and love of oneself to the point of despising God, of hating others. This same interpretation of history as a struggle between two loves, between love and selfishness, also appears in the reading from the Book of Revelation that we have just heard.

Here, these two loves appear in two great figures. First of all, there is the immensely strong, red dragon with a striking and disturbing manifestation of power without grace, without love, of absolute selfishness, terror and violence.

At the time when St John wrote the Book of Revelation, this dragon represented for him the power of the anti-Christian Roman Emperors, from Nero to Domitian. This power seemed boundless; the military, political and propagandist power of the Roman Empire was such that before it, faith, the Church, appeared as a defenseless woman with no chance of survival and even less of victory.

Who could stand up to this omnipresent force that seemed capable of achieving everything? Yet, we know that in the end it was the defenceless woman who won and not egoism or hatred; the love of God triumphed and the Roman Empire was opened to the Christian faith.

The words of Sacred Scripture always transcend the period in history. Thus, not only does this dragon suggest the anti-Christian power of the persecutors of the Church of that time, but also anti-Christian dictatorships of all periods.

We see this power, the force of the red dragon, brought into existence once again in the great dictatorships of the last century: the Nazi dictatorship and the dictatorship of Stalin monopolized all the power, penetrated every corner, the very last corner. It seemed impossible in the long term that faith could survive in the face of this dragon that was so powerful, that could not wait to devour God become a Child, as well as the woman, the Church. But also in this case, in the end love was stronger than hate.

Today too, the dragon exists in new and different ways. It exists in the form of materialistic ideologies that tell us it is absurd to think of God; it is absurd to observe God's commandments: they are a leftover from a time past. Life is only worth living for its own sake. Take everything we can get in this brief moment of life. Consumerism, selfishness and entertainment alone are worthwhile. This is life. This is how we must live. And once again, it seems absurd, impossible, to oppose this dominant mindset with all its media and propagandist power. Today too, it seems impossible to imagine a God who created man and made himself a Child and who was to be the true ruler of the world.

Even now, this dragon appears invincible, but it is still true today that God is stronger than the dragon, that it is love which conquers rather than selfishness.

Having thus considered the various historical forms of the dragon, let us now look at the other image: the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, surrounded by 12 stars. This is also a multidimensional image.

Without any doubt, a first meaning is that it is Our Lady, Mary, clothed with the sun, that is, with God, totally; Mary who lives totally in God, surrounded and penetrated by God's light. Surrounded by the 12 stars, that is, by the 12 tribes of Israel, by the whole People of God, by the whole Communion of Saints; and at her feet, the moon, the image of death and mortality.

Mary has left death behind her; she is totally clothed in life, she is taken up body and soul into God's glory and thus, placed in glory after overcoming death, she says to us: Take heart, it is love that wins in the end!

The message of my life was: I am the handmaid of God, my life has been a gift of myself to God and my neighbor. And this life of service now arrives in real life. May you too have trust and have the courage to live like this, countering all the threats of the dragon.

This is the first meaning of the woman whom Mary succeeded in being. The "woman clothed with the sun" is the great sign of the victory of love, of the victory of goodness, of the victory of God; a great sign of consolation.

Yet, this woman who suffered, who had to flee, who gave birth with cries of anguish, is also the Church, the pilgrim Church of all times. In all generations she has to give birth to Christ anew, to bring him very painfully into the world, with great suffering. Persecuted in all ages, it is almost as if, pursued by the dragon, she had gone to live in the wilderness.

However, in all ages, the Church, the People of God, also lives by the light of God and as the Gospel says is nourished by God, nourishing herself with the Bread of the Holy Eucharist. Thus, in all the trials in the various situations of the Church through the ages in different parts of the world, she wins through suffering. And she is the presence, the guarantee of God's love against all the ideologies of hatred and selfishness.

We see of course that today too the dragon wants to devour God who made himself a Child. Do not fear for this seemingly frail God; the fight has already been won. Today too, this weak God is strong: he is true strength.

Thus, the Feast of the Assumption is an invitation to trust in God and also to imitate Mary in what she herself said: Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; I put myself at the Lord's disposal.

This is the lesson: one should travel on one's own road; one should give life and not take it. And precisely in this way each one is on the journey of love which is the loss of self, but this losing of oneself is in fact the only way to truly find oneself, to find true life.

Let us look to Mary, taken up into Heaven. Let us be encouraged to celebrate the joyful feast with faith: God wins. Faith, which seems weak, is the true force of the world. Love is stronger than hate.

And let us say with Elizabeth: Blessed are you among women. Let us pray to you with all the Church: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

I feel like saying what a load of crap.