ROMANS 11 WHO IS THE WILD OLIVE TREE?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


God is not done with unbelieving Israel.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant is believing Israel and also believing Gentiles. God has always made provision for the Gentiles to be saved through Israel.

11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The election, the Jewish and Gentile believing remnant, has obtained to righteousness by grace through faith. Unbelieving Israel has been blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel fell because of their rejection of Jesus as Christ, the Son of God. The gospel went out to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy in order to restore them.

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Israel, as can be seen in verse 19 above, would also be provoked to jealousy by a foolish nation. The foolish nation is believing Israel. The foolish nation is the remnant of believing Jews and believing Gentiles.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Israel's fulness is when Israel obtains all the promises and purpose of God.

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul, in the book of Romans is addressing three existing groups:


1 unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

2 Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ who believed the gospel of Christ preached by Paul.

3 Jew and Gentile kingdom saints who are in Christ by believing the gospel of the kingdom.

In verse 13 Paul is speaking to Gentile kingdom saints. Paul is saying to the kingdom saint Gentiles (not Gentiles in the church, the body of Christ, according to Paul's gospel) that he will provoke them which are of his flesh, the unbelieving Jews, to salvation.

Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 6 and 7 above, those called are Jews or Gentiles called into the body of Christ, and Jews or Gentiles called into the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 1:2 1:24 7:18

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Verses 24 and 25 above refers to the holy nation, the little flock, the believing remnant of both Jew and Gentile.

To conclude then, the Gentiles in Romans 11:13 are Gentile kingdom saints.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

In leviticus 23:20 the bread of the firstfruits is holy. The bread is made from flour baked with leaven and offered by the priest. The leavened bread speaks of unbelieving Israel, which is also the root and branches in verse 16.

11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In verse 17 above, thou is Jew or Gentile kingdom saints, the little flock, the remnant. The remnant is the wild olive tree. The root and broken off branches are unbelieving Israel.

It can be seen from John 15 below that broken off branches refers to unfruitful, unbelieving Israel.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In Matthew below the kingdom will be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to the fruitful nation of Israel. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, it is only the believing, promised seed. Romans 9:6

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The election of grace, the remnant, would also be cut off if they fell into unbelief. They would not get their inheritance in the promised Davidic kingdom.

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Unbelieving Israel would be grafted back into their olive tree if they repented and believed.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel will be restored when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in; that is when the Gentiles have fulfilled their purpose as determined by God.

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jesus will fulfill the New Testament and restore Israel.

In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the remnant of believing kingdom Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ.
 
Last edited:

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,257
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the believing remnant of Israel. The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ.

I disagree, Romans 11 says who is the wild olive tree - Gentiles. National Israel - believers and unbelievers are the natural olive tree.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the believing remnant of Israel.
TOTALLY INCORRECT. "The wild olive tree" is unbelieving Gentiles, whereas the "good olive tree" is the believing remnant of Israel. The Church began with believing Jews (the good olive tree) and the Gentiles (who came from the wild olive tree) were grafted in. And that is precisely why Paul tells Gentile Christians not be high-minded.

But God is NOT done with Israel and the Jews, as is very clear from Romans 11:26-31.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lady Crosstalk

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,257
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
TOTALLY INCORRECT. "The wild olive tree" is unbelieving Gentiles, whereas the "good olive tree" is the believing remnant of Israel. The Church began with believing Jews (the good olive tree) and the Gentiles (who came from the wild olive tree) were grafted in. And that is precisely why Paul tells Gentile Christians not be high-minded.

But God is NOT done with Israel and the Jews, as is very clear from Romans 11:26-31.

I agree 50%. The wild olive tree are Gentiles. But Israel is the natural olive tree. Period.

23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CoreIssue

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I agree 50%. The wild olive tree are Gentiles. But Israel is the natural olive tree. Period.
Well since the term "GOOD olive tree" is used by Paul for believing Israel, we should stick with his terminology.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree... (Rom 11:24)

In contrast, the "natural branches" which were cut off are the unbelieving Jews, who will then be grafted in AFTER the second coming of Christ, provided they repent and believe on Christ.
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee...(Rom 11:21)

God "spared not" the natural branches when He cut off unbelieving Jews from the Church.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
God is not done with unbelieving Israel.

God is done with a certain nation being His exclusive people. All nations are called to Him through Christ. But God is not done with the individuals who make up that rejected nation. These are free to believe or reject their king as individuals.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


God is not done with unbelieving Israel.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant is believing Israel and also believing Gentiles. God has always made provision for the Gentiles to be saved through Israel.

11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The election, the Jewish and Gentile believing remnant, has obtained to righteousness by grace through faith. Unbelieving Israel has been blinded.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel fell because of their rejection of Jesus as Christ, the Son of God. The gospel went out to the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy in order to restore them.

Romans 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Israel, as can be seen in verse 19 above, would also be provoked to jealousy by a foolish nation. The foolish nation is believing Israel.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Israel's fulness is when Israel obtains all the promises and purpose of God.

11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul, in the book of Romans, is addressing unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, Jews and Gentiles in the body of Christ, who believed the gospel of Christ preached by Paul, and Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ by believing the gospel of the kingdom ( kingdom saints).

In verse 13 Paul is speaking to Gentile kingdom saints. Paul is saying to the kingdom saint Gentiles (not Gentiles in the church, the body of Christ, according to Paul's gospel) that he will provoke them which are of his flesh, the unbelieving Jews, to salvation.

Romans 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:


1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In verses 6 and 7 above, those called are Jews or Gentiles called into the body of Christ, and Jews or Gentiles called into the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 1:2 1:24 7:18

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Verses 24 and 25 above refers to the holy nation, the little flock, the believing remnant of both Jew and Gentile.

To conclude then, the Gentiles in Romans 11:13 are Gentile kingdom saints.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

In leviticus 23:20 the bread of the firstfruits is holy. The bread is made from flour baked with leaven and offered by the priest. The leavened bread speaks of unbelieving Israel, which is also the root and branches in verse 16.

11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

In verse 17 above, thou is Jew or Gentile kingdom saints, the little flock, the remnant. The remnant is the wild olive tree. The root and broken off branches are unbelieving Israel.

It can be seen from John 15 below that broken off branches refers to unfruitful, unbelieving Israel.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In Matthew below the kingdom will be taken from unbelieving Israel and given to the fruitful nation of Israel. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, it is only the believing, promised seed. Romans 9:6

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The election of grace, the remnant, would also be cut off if they fell into unbelief. They would not get their inheritance in the promised Davidic kingdom.

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Unbelieving Israel would be grafted back into their olive tree if they repented and believed.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Israel will be restored when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in; that is when the Gentiles have fulfilled their purpose as determined by God.

11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jesus will fulfill the New Testament and restore Israel.

In conclusion, the wild olive tree is the believing remnant of Israel. The Gentiles spoken of are part of the wild olive tree grafted into the good olive tree; they are kingdom saints, members of the remnant, the little flock, that will enter the coming kingdom on earth. These Gentiles are not in the body of Christ.
If the broken off Jews are Israel, to whom are they reattached if they become believers?
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
TOTALLY INCORRECT. "The wild olive tree" is unbelieving Gentiles, whereas the "good olive tree" is the believing remnant of Israel. The Church began with believing Jews (the good olive tree) and the Gentiles (who came from the wild olive tree) were grafted in. And that is precisely why Paul tells Gentile Christians not be high-minded.

But God is NOT done with Israel and the Jews, as is very clear from Romans 11:26-31.
Hi
I don't see how unbelievers would be grafted in, if as you say, they are unbelieving Gentiles. The unbelieving Jews were broken off/ removed from the tree.

Or are you saying they are Gentiles who have become believers? If that is the case it becomes a question of by which gospel are they saved. I say they were in Christ by believing the gospel of the kingdom.

The little flock of Jew and Gentile believers were not to boast because they could be broken off as well and not enter the Davidic kingdom if they fell into unbelief and became unfruitful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well since the term "GOOD olive tree" is used by Paul for believing Israel, we should stick with his terminology.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree... (Rom 11:24)

In contrast, the "natural branches" which were cut off are the unbelieving Jews, who will then be grafted in AFTER the second coming of Christ, provided they repent and believe on Christ.
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee...(Rom 11:21)

God "spared not" the natural branches when He cut off unbelieving Jews from the Church.
Romans 11:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The KJV used the word good, not Paul.

If you knew anything about farming you would know your claim was an absurd one.

Even today in agriculture the terms are domesticated, cultivated, hybrid and wild. Not good and bad.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,257
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well since the term "GOOD olive tree" is used by Paul for believing Israel, we should stick with his terminology.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree... (Rom 11:24)

In contrast, the "natural branches" which were cut off are the unbelieving Jews, who will then be grafted in AFTER the second coming of Christ, provided they repent and believe on Christ.
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee...(Rom 11:21)

God "spared not" the natural branches when He cut off unbelieving Jews from the Church.

Evidently you didn't read this part of the verse, so I'll repeat it. The natural olive tree IS the "good" olive tree. It is "natural." In unbelief they were cut off, but if they repent, they can be grafted back into the same tree. Not sure what obscure version you have, but the translator made it seem it was an entirely different tree than their natural tree they had been cut off from due to unbelief. The point Paul is making is that a branch that has been cut off, can easily be grafted back into the same tree it came from, as opposed to a wild olive branch grafting into a natural and cultivated tree.

how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
 
Last edited:

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
...but if they repent...
There's the reason they are NOT the good olive tree. Only repentant and believing Israel is called the good olive tree. Obviously the cultivated olive tree is the good olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree. But the branches which are called natural were actually cut off.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,257
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There's the reason they are NOT the good olive tree. Only repentant and believing Israel is called the good olive tree. Obviously the cultivated olive tree is the good olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree. But the branches which are called natural were actually cut off.

Every translation I can find on biblegateway, calls it THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE. In other words, GOD'S PEOPLE. God's people started with the Jews, in unbelief some were cut off and Gentiles (wild) were grafted into God's people. And when the Jews come back they can easily be grafted back into God's people, now called the Church. The true Church didn't start with Gentiles, but Jews as far back as Abraham and his promised SEED, Jesus.

BTW, what is the name of the translation you quoted from. They didn't seem to know what Paul was saying and the purpose of the whole chapter. It is against the heresy of "replacement theology."
 
Last edited:

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Every translation I can find on biblegateway, calls it THEIR OWN OLIVE TREE. In other words, GOD'S PEOPLE. God's people started with the Jews, in unbelief some were cut off and Gentiles (wild) were grafted into God's people. And when the Jews come back they can easily be grafted back into God's people, now called the Church. The true Church didn't start with Gentiles, but Jews as far back as Abraham.

BTW, what is the name of the translation you quoting from. They didn't seem to know what Paul was saying and the purpose of the whole chapter.

He lives and breathes the KJV.

It has a lot of errors and is an archaic translation from 1769. Such as replacing Passover with Easter.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which is Israel under Christ.
Hey brother
You know.....honestly I don't really want to say yes...sounds good....but, Romans 11:24 just says they will be grafted into their own olive tree, which is Israel......maybe they are the Israel of God as it says in Galatians 6:16
 

CoreIssue

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2018
10,032
2,023
113
USA
christiantalkzone.net
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hey brother
You know.....honestly I don't really want to say yes...sounds good....but, Romans 11:24 just says they will be grafted into their own olive tree, which is Israel......maybe they are the Israel of God as it says in Galatians 6:16

The olive tree being Israel is taught in the Bible long before the second person of the Trinity incarnated in the flesh of Jesus Christ.
 
D

Dave L

Guest
Hey brother
You know.....honestly I don't really want to say yes...sounds good....but, Romans 11:24 just says they will be grafted into their own olive tree, which is Israel......maybe they are the Israel of God as it says in Galatians 6:16
The Church is the Israel of God. Here's why. Abraham's see were called the Hebrew and then Israel interchangeably by Moses. So Abraham's seed = Israel. Paul tells us Jesus and those who believe in him are Abraham's seed and not the unbelievers. = The church is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16.
 

Doug

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
1,452
327
83
south
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Church is the Israel of God. Here's why. Abraham's see were called the Hebrew and then Israel interchangeably by Moses. So Abraham's seed = Israel. Paul tells us Jesus and those who believe in him are Abraham's seed and not the unbelievers. = The church is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16.

Hey brother

Sorry but I don't see that. Paul says in Christ there is neither Jew or Greek and the church is a new creature.