Romans Chapter 11

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You think the division between Jews and Gentiles is rough.. the one going on within the Jewish community itself is even tougher.
You have those that see Christ as Saviour and those who are still waiting for him to arrive.
The Evening and the Morning. The ones still sleeping and the ones that are awake.

So what is Paul talking about??
God hasn't forsaken Israel. If he had he never would have chosen Paul to bring the Gospel to the world.
Israel look, killed the prophets, took down God's altars or pace of worship.. (which is the altar in yourself.. your closet, so to speak) and yet God left one to carry the torch..
Like Paul. And Paul gives a pretty good account how they tried to wipe him out:

2Co 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool ) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

This one is another interesting correlation:
Mat 17:10
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The disciples understood that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist... (hello again John)
But at that time they didn't know Paul.
And what I am hearing as I write this.. is that Paul is the "other" comforter that was to come and restore all things.

We're still in the process of being restored...
So many things have to happen first.
We have to put down our weapons against each other and pick up the plowshares and work together in the garden, in the field.. right here on earth.
And until the "Gentiles" stop treading on the "Jews", and the "Jews" recognize Jesus as Savior.. it's going to be one heck of a rocky road with lots of obstacles.

7000 men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
What is that?

Hugs

 

[CharismaticLady]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You think the division between Jews and Gentiles is rough.. the one going on within the Jewish community itself is even tougher.
You have those that see Christ as Saviour and those who are still waiting for him to arrive.
The Evening and the Morning. The ones still sleeping and the ones that are awake.

So what is Paul talking about??
God hasn't forsaken Israel. If he had he never would have chosen Paul to bring the Gospel to the world.
Israel look, killed the prophets, took down God's altars or pace of worship.. (which is the altar in yourself.. your closet, so to speak) and yet God left one to carry the torch..
Like Paul. And Paul gives a pretty good account how they tried to wipe him out:

2Co 11:22
Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool ) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

This one is another interesting correlation:
Mat 17:10
And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The disciples understood that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist... (hello again John)
But at that time they didn't know Paul.
And what I am hearing as I write this.. is that Paul is the "other" comforter that was to come and restore all things.

We're still in the process of being restored...
So many things have to happen first.
We have to put down our weapons against each other and pick up the plowshares and work together in the garden, in the field.. right here on earth.
And until the "Gentiles" stop treading on the "Jews", and the "Jews" recognize Jesus as Savior.. it's going to be one heck of a rocky road with lots of obstacles.

7000 men who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
What is that?

Hugs

I see Romans 11 as a warning against "Replacement Theology," and that God is not through with national Israel and His promises to them.

 

[Ziggy]

I see Romans 11 as a warning against "Replacement Theology," and that God is not through with national Israel and His promises to them.

Frankly, I hope he doesn't give up on the Gentiles.
God has always been the God of Israel.
It's the Gentiles that need replacement theology.. no more Baals for them.
This is that place where Paul is walking through the city and he sees a statue attributed to the "UNKNOWN" God.
And Paul has to explain to them who this "UNKNOWN" God is, because they seem to like the ones called Jupiter and Diana..
So it's not them that needed replacing. It was the Gentiles coming to know God.
Today.. hmm.. it's kind of backwards.. but God will set it on the right course.. eventually

Thank You!
HUGS

 

[CharismaticLady]

Frankly, I hope he doesn't give up on the Gentiles.
God has always been the God of Israel.
It's the Gentiles that need replacement theology.. no more Baals for them.
This is that place where Paul is walking through the city and he sees a statue attributed to the "UNKNOWN" God.
And Paul has to explain to them who this "UNKNOWN" God is, because they seem to like the ones called Jupiter and Diana..
So it's not them that needed replacing. It was the Gentiles coming to know God.
Today.. hmm.. it's kind of backwards.. but God will set it on the right course.. eventually

Thank You!
HUGS

Actually, it will not be very long before NO MORE Gentiles can come into the Church, only Jews, and Gentiles already in the Church, but are not overcomers, will have their time to make the ultimate choice, whether to lose your head for Christ, or keep it and lose your soul.

 

[Ziggy]

Actually, it will not be very long before NO MORE Gentiles can come into the Church, only Jews, and Gentiles already in the Church, but are not overcomers, will have their time to make the ultimate choice, whether to lose your head for Christ, or keep it and lose your soul.

I have a feeling that there will be persecutions for all religions associated with God. And it won't matter if your Jew or Gentile.
They are burning Bibles in the streets.
Christians around the world are being killed and imprisoned every day.
No, it won't matter to the world what side of the salvation issue one stands. They're coming after all of us.
We got 2 wars going on all the time. An Internal and an External.
The Internal one is where Jesus is and there is Grace and Mercy found in that battle in one's own self.
The External one is the Worldly war on God himself and all those that believe in Him. And there is No Mercy and No Grace found there.

I would not live in a world with no God.
When they cry.. Off with her head! , I'll praise God, I'm coming home!

HUGS

 

[Enoch111]

I see Romans 11 as a warning against "Replacement Theology," and that God is not through with national Israel and His promises to them.

Correct. Romans 11 is a key chapter in the Bible. Indeed all of Romans is critical to our understanding of Gospel truth. But Romans 9 and 11 give Christians the foundation for understanding that just as God has a plan for the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body in Christ), He also has a definite plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel (the twelve tribes) AFTER the Second Coming of Christ. And that is what we find in Romans 11.

Firstly the Church must be completed and raptured. That is what "the fulness of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:25) means. God already knew that the Church would primarily consist of Gentiles, since the Jews rejected Christ and also rejected the Gospel (barring a believing remnant of Israel). But that did not mean that God had cast aside Israel as a nation (which shows us the infinite grace of God).

God made a covenant with Abraham which included the settlement of the twelve tribes in greater Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates). That never happened. Israel went into captivity twice, and finally almost all the Jews in Judea were scattered after 70 AD. No one dreamt that Israel would be established as a nation in 1948. But Zionist (unbelieving) Israel rejected their Messiah. Only the Orthodox Jews expect their Messiah, but they fail to understand that Yeshua ha Mashiach is their Messiah. Therefore the Antichrist will present himself as the long-awaited Messiah of unbelieving Israel. And deceive them. That will also be the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

However, Christ will destroy the Antichrist and the False Prophet at His Second Coming, and gather all the Jews from around the world to Israel. But only one-third of the total number will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Following that He will establish His millennial Kingdom on earth, and Israel will be redeemed and restored. The fourth temple will be built in Jerusalem as described in Ezekiel, and while we do not understand the reason why, it will be reconciled with the New Covenant under the reign of Christ. God does not contradict Himself.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't think they will actually have to "cut off" our heads.
I think the media is doing a good job of keeping one's mind off God.
And they are brainwashing people.
You have to "know" God. And the "knowing" is in your head, it's your brain, it's the thinking part.
If they can get control of that, they won't need to cut it off.. it's already dead..
HUGS

 

[101G]

the Jews are in the same boat as the Gentiles, Hosea 2:23 "And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

"and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God."

no need for any "Replacement Theology" as stated, for in Christ Jesus there is neither JEW or Gentile. ther is no rapture of anyone until he returns, and then we all will be gathered togeather with the Lord.

for the apostle Peter said it best after being reprove by God, Acts 10:28 "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."

Acts 15:8 "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;"Acts 15:9 "And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith."

back to acts chapter 10. Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." ..... BINGO.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[quietthinker]

Frankly, I hope he doesn't give up on the Gentiles.
God has always been the God of Israel.
It's the Gentiles that need replacement theology.. no more Baals for them.
This is that place where Paul is walking through the city and he sees a statue attributed to the "UNKNOWN" God.
And Paul has to explain to them who this "UNKNOWN" God is, because they seem to like the ones called Jupiter and Diana..
So it's not them that needed replacing. It was the Gentiles coming to know God.
Today.. hmm.. it's kind of backwards.. but God will set it on the right course.. eventually

Thank You!
HUGS

One could look at it like this; ....from God's perspective he has always been Israels God yet from the perspective of Israel, God has not always been their God.....in spite of their lip service.....this is revealed in the language 'I have reserved for myself 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal'.....further, 7 being the number of completeness (7000)....further, 'Israel' representing all God's people both Jews and Gentiles discards any idea of 'national' favouritism on any grounds.

If one see's it any other way one opens a Pandora's box for themselves which is irreconcilable ....for instance, were those whose bodies fell in the wilderness deemed 'Israel'?.....what about those who were swallowed by the earth in Korah's rebellion?.....Citing examples are plentiful if it needs be done.

The very meaning of 'Israel' is, 'he who contends with God and man and prevails'. This statement/ meaning by its very nature excludes national favouritism in any era.

 

[Ziggy]

I don't know what this"Rapture" is.
I know what people say they think it is..
I need to study that more..
And every eye shall see him..is that the physical eye or the spiritual eye?
My space bar isnot behaving..
I could usesome help with the "rapture" verses for sure..

HUGS

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know what this"Rapture" is.
I know what people say they think it is..
I need to study that more..
And every eye shall see him..is that the physical eye or the spiritual eye?
My space bar isnot behaving..
I could usesome help with the "rapture" verses for sure..

HUGS

From the outset the word 'rapture' does not occur in the scriptures. It is a term used in certain sections of the Christian community which they apply to the return of Jesus.....however, they qualify it by a 'secret' event which can happen at any time the which involves the mass disappearance of 'christians' around the world......ie, they are raptured up physically while the world continues etc. Certain scriptures are used in isolation to support this view. This view further breaks down Jesus's second coming into a couple of events separating the word 'perusia' from 'second coming' etc.

Movies have been made along these lines.
In my view this is a distortion to the scripture's intent......a whole movement has been built on this distortion.

Scripture as I understand it speaks of the very public, very visible, very physical return of Jesus in the clouds.....not this time as a man of sorrows acquainted with grief but as he really is ie, King of kings and Lord of lords.....it speaks in terms of the end of this age. It speaks of the graves opening and bodies living and dead being transformed from corruption to incorruption, from mortal to immortal.....it speaks of the whole earth being a witness to this......nothing secret about it.

The word 'Rapture' can be understood as this very literal, physical appearance as described above but generally it is used and understood in context of a secret appearing.

The word 'rapture' can be confusing to those unfamiliar with the second coming event described in scripture .....it requires 'unpacking'.

 

[Ziggy]

To me then this rapture would be when ones eyes open to the realization of Christ in you.
That you are no longer living your way but he lives his life in you, his way.
I also thought the clouds always meant like a throng of witnesses..
He comes with crowds.. like when he came to Jerusalem on Palm Sunday and they all laid palm leaves before the as.. donkey he was riding on.
Funny how there are so many different interpretations, and yet we all read the same book.
I guess it has to do with the ears and the hearing..
Mine still have some wax.. so..
I'm willing to listen..
Thank You
HUGS

 

[CharismaticLady]

I have a feeling that there will be persecutions for all religions associated with God. And it won't matter if your Jew or Gentile.
They are burning Bibles in the streets.
Christians around the world are being killed and imprisoned every day.
No, it won't matter to the world what side of the salvation issue one stands. They're coming after all of us.
We got 2 wars going on all the time. An Internal and an External.
The Internal one is where Jesus is and there is Grace and Mercy found in that battle in one's own self.
The External one is the Worldly war on God himself and all those that believe in Him. And there is No Mercy and No Grace found there.

I would not live in a world with no God.
When they cry.. Off with her head! , I'll praise God, I'm coming home!

HUGS

Revelation 12 shows that Jews (the woman) will be safe for the first 3 1/2 years, but Christians (their offspring) will be hunted. Then the last 3 1/2 years all Jews and Christians will be included.

 

[farouk]

I don't know what this"Rapture" is.
I know what people say they think it is..
I need to study that more..
And every eye shall see him..is that the physical eye or the spiritual eye?
My space bar isnot behaving..
I could usesome help with the "rapture" verses for sure..

HUGS

@Ziggy 1 Cor. 11.26

 

[Ziggy]

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The election..
These are the Jews that have been elected by Grace like the 7000 that were hid.
and everytime I see "their" table it makes me think of Jezebel.. the one that leads away after idols and fornication.
Or like the Pharisees and Saducees.. the ones who keep the way shut up to those who would go in..

So God is using Gentiles as a means to provoke or make the Jews jealous.. hmm
somehow the phrase by whatever means possible comes to mind..
Or the means justifies the end..

So by making them jealous it is with the hope that they come back and claim their inheritence through faith.
So we get rich (in Christ) and that should draw them... haha like leviathan from the sea.. draw them out so they come home where the belong..

that's how I'm understanding these 6 verses.
HUGS

 

[CharismaticLady]

Firstly the Church must be completed and raptured. That is what "the fulness of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:25) means.

We agree on the falsehood of Replacement Theology, but here I believe the partial blindness lifting from national Israel is for those Jews to come into the Church, not a separate body or Bride. Where do you get the idea that the restoration of the Jews is after the second coming? I don't see that in Romans 11. But I do see that the fullness of the Gentiles ends with the beginning of the GT and the revealing of the Antichrist. And it is they who have not overcome sin that will have to make a stand and choose Christ and lose their heads, or deny Him to save themselves, accepting the mark of the beast.

 

[Ziggy]

@Ziggy 1 Cor. 11.26

1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

And this is referring to the Passover. Before his death and ressurection.
And we are to keep the passover, his death, until he comes.
Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week. And showed himself to many.
The Passover was until the Ressurection.
Now Paul is talking to whom? The new born christians or newly converted Jews.. same thing.
And until they came to the realization that Christ is their passover lamb, they needed to be mindful, not to partake of the bread (truth) and wine (grace) unworthily.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So the question I would have is.. are we still required to keep the passover, seeing it has been fulfilled.
And when one is born again.. freed from the bondage of the world, that Egypt represents, and come to the knowledge
that Christ is risen in you...
Are we still required to observe it?
And in "observing" are we required to "participate" ?

I'm not a Jew. So I don't know the answer to this.
I don't see how it could hurt once you understand the significance of it.
So as a memorial yes, as awaiting another occurance, as a prophecy? no

But I'm still learning so that's not written in stone.
Thank You Farouk!
HUGS

 

[farouk]

1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

And this is referring to the Passover. Before his death and ressurection.
And we are to keep the passover, his death, until he comes.
Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week. And showed himself to many.
The Passover was until the Ressurection.
Now Paul is talking to whom? The new born christians or newly converted Jews.. same thing.
And until they came to the realization that Christ is their passover lamb, they needed to be mindful, not to partake of the bread (truth) and wine (grace) unworthily.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So the question I would have is.. are we still required to keep the passover, seeing it has been fulfilled.
And when one is born again.. freed from the bondage of the world, that Egypt represents, and come to the knowledge
that Christ is risen in you...
Are we still required to observe it?
And in "observing" are we required to "participate" ?

I'm not a Jew. So I don't know the answer to this.
I don't see how it could hurt once you understand the significance of it.
So as a memorial yes, as awaiting another occurance, as a prophecy? no

But I'm still learning so that's not written in stone.
Thank You Farouk!
HUGS

@Ziggy Seems to be referring to the Lord's Supper. In Luke 22, the last passover becomes the first Lord's Supper.

 

[CharismaticLady]

1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

And this is referring to the Passover. Before his death and ressurection.
And we are to keep the passover, his death, until he comes.
Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week. And showed himself to many.
The Passover was until the Ressurection.
Now Paul is talking to whom? The new born christians or newly converted Jews.. same thing.
And until they came to the realization that Christ is their passover lamb, they needed to be mindful, not to partake of the bread (truth) and wine (grace) unworthily.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

So the question I would have is.. are we still required to keep the passover, seeing it has been fulfilled.
And when one is born again.. freed from the bondage of the world, that Egypt represents, and come to the knowledge
that Christ is risen in you...
Are we still required to observe it?
And in "observing" are we required to "participate" ?

I'm not a Jew. So I don't know the answer to this.
I don't see how it could hurt once you understand the significance of it.
So as a memorial yes, as awaiting another occurance, as a prophecy? no

But I'm still learning so that's not written in stone.
Thank You Farouk!
HUGS

The Passover referred to Egypt on the night they were spared from the death angel due to the lamb's blood on the door posts, and the Lord's Supper was instituted to remember the true lamb, Jesus and His body and blood shed for us. We are to keep the Lord's Supper, not the Passover. Jesus fulfilled the hidden meaning behind the Passover.

 

[quietthinker]

Revelation 12 shows that Jews (the woman) will be safe for the first 3 1/2 years, but Christians (their offspring) will be hunted. Then the last 3 1/2 years all Jews and Christians will be included.

This is Prophetic. Prophetic language is in symbolism. The woman my dear represents God's people. The 3.5 years is also symbolism. This symbolism is repeated in various forms all representing the same period/time frame....ie, 42 mths...1260 days..... easy to figure out.....30 days per month, how many months in 3.5 yrs = 42 mths, how many days in 42 mths = 1260 days. To interpret this is not difficult but it requires acknowledgement of the principle stated below.

Days in prophetic time equal years in real time; for instance, 40 days of the spies in Cannan = 40 yrs real time wandering in the wilderness. There are many other examples to underpin this.

To take symbolism and make it literal is a violation of prophetic principle. To use that which is designated as symbol and make it literal is very poor exegesis and opens the door to chop and change interpretation willy nilly which is what you have applied in you post. The sum being is the interpretation is invalid.