Rules of interpretation for Premill

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Randy Kluth

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I recently raised this point, and apparently made a solid point because there was no refutation. So I make it here again, in case it wasn't seen. There is a dominant group here who vehemently insist that the *only* legitimate biblical view of Rev 20 is Amill. But not only was the early Church apparently Premill, as historian Philip Schaff claims, but it was viewed as the natural interpretation of what John wrote in Rev 20. The earliest Premills were following, they believed, what John had literally written.

The argument for Amill began to become dominant after Origen and Augustine, a few centuries later, who placed a lot of stock in Symbolic Interpretation. Nobody would dispute that there is such a thing in literature as Symbolism, but I should think that there are some hard fast rules as to when Symbolic Interpretation should be allowed and when it should not be allowed?

My argument has always been that Context determines the meaning of words and how they should be interpreted, symbolic or literal. And if there is no apparent reason from the context that determines words should be interpreted symbolically, then a literal rendering would be what the author intended to convey to the reader.

It is not enough to say the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism. There are many examples of books that used lots of symbolism without having to view every portion of the book as symbolic. Even in a work of science fiction, symbolically depicting the dangers of nuclear annihilation, we cannot say that everything depicted in the story is symbolic. Let's say a young man asks his father to pilot a moon vehicle. Just because the story is symbolic, and science fiction, does not mean the young man's request of his Dad symbolizes something other than what it is--a request to literally pilot a moon vehicle!

Similarly, the book of Revelation is indeed a book that uses lots of symbolism, but that doesn't mean that when we're told Christ comes back and a 1000 years of Christian reign follow that event that the entire thing is symbolic of anything other than what is literally said. The only way to tell what is symbolic and what is not is the context.

"7 heads and 10 horns" is obviously symbolic, as we can tell by the context. But there is no reason to assume the number "7" does not refer to a literal number of "7" elements described, symbolically, as "heads." There are literally *7* heads, in which the "heads" demand to be viewed as symbolic of kings, and the number "7" argues that there are literally 7 kings.

We cannot therefore say that the Millennium itself is symbolic, unless we are told so, or if the context demands it. But we can, without any other evidence, assume this is completely literal, even if many symbols are used throughout the book. We cannot assume the binding of Satan is symbolic of Christ's defeat of Satan at the cross without evidence that this was meant to be taken symbolically. For lack of evidence we should take the context "as is," and interpret things literally. Satan may have been defeated at the cross, but he is literally bound at the Return of Christ.

And the reign of those raised from the dead, in Rev 20, would be literally resurrected martyrs who reign literally for a thousand years, rather than assume they symbolize the resurrection of Christ and a mystical reign of the Church over Satan during the NT age. None of this is anything more than supposition without real evidence.

Symbolism, to be taken as such, must have a context that demands it be taken as such. And we don't have that. We should therefore assume Rev 20 is to be taken literally, with a literal thousand years, a literal resurrection of the Church, a literal reign of the Church for a thousand years, and a literal binding of Satan for a thousand years.

Some say that the context demands a "1000" be taken symbolically because the Bible regularly and normally uses "1000" in a symbolic fashion, such as "a day is as a 1000 years." In this case, the passage referred to presents a different context than the context in Rev 20 such that "1000" must be interpreted in the context in which it is used.

To transfer the meaning of "1000" in one context to another passage with a different context is an Interpretive Fallacy. "1000" can be used as a saying in "a day is as a 1000 years." But "1000" can be expressed as a literal thousand years in a context in which there is no literary saying at all, and no inference that a saying is being expressed. For example, I could say that the Byzantine Empire reigned for a thousand years, and it would literally be true, despite the fact that there are sayings in which a "1000" can be interpreted as a form of literary exaggeration.

To say Satan will be bound a thousand years, that Christians will rise from the dead and rule on earth for a thousand years, is hardly a "saying." Its own context therefore suggests this is a literal period of a thousand years.
 
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Trekson

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I recently raised this point, and apparently made a solid point because there was no refutation. So I make it here again, in case it wasn't seen. There is a dominant group here who vehemently insist that the *only* legitimate biblical view of Rev 20 is Amill. But not only was the early Church apparently Premill, as historian Philip Schaff claims, but it was viewed as the natural interpretation of what John wrote in Rev 20. The earliest Premills were following, they believed, what John had literally written.

The argument for Amill began to become dominant after Origen and Augustine, a few centuries later, who placed a lot of stock in Symbolic Interpretation. Nobody would dispute that there is such a thing in literature as Symbolism, but I should think that there are some hard fast rules as to when Symbolic Interpretation should be allowed and when it should not be allowed?

My argument has always been that Context determines the meaning of words and how they should be interpreted, symbolic or literal. And if there is no apparent reason from the context that determines words should be interpreted symbolically, then a literal rendering would be what the author intended to convey to the reader.

It is not enough to say the book of Revelation is an apocalyptic book full of symbolism. There are many examples of books that used lots of symbolism without having to view every portion of the book as symbolic. Even in a work of science fiction, symbolically depicting the dangers of nuclear annihilation, we cannot say that everything depicted in the story is symbolic. Let's say a young man asks his father to pilot a moon vehicle. Just because the story is symbolic, and science fiction, does not mean the young man's request of his Dad symbolizes something other than what it is--a request to literally pilot a moon vehicle!

Similarly, the book of Revelation is indeed a book that uses lots of symbolism, but that doesn't mean that when we're told Christ comes back and a 1000 years of Christian reign follow that event that the entire thing is symbolic of anything other than what is literally said. The only way to tell what is symbolic and what is not is the context.

"7 heads and 10 horns" is obviously symbolic, as we can tell by the context. But there is no reason to assume the number "7" does not refer to a literal number of "7" elements described, symbolically, as "heads." There are literally *7* heads, in which the "heads" demand to be viewed as symbolic of kings, and the number "7" argues that there are literally 7 kings.

We cannot therefore say that the Millennium itself is symbolic, unless we are told so, or if the context demands it. But we can, without any other evidence, assume this is completely literal, even if many symbols are used throughout the book. We cannot assume the binding of Satan is symbolic of Christ's defeat of Satan at the cross without evidence that this was meant to be taken symbolically. For lack of evidence we should take the context "as is," and interpret things literally. Satan may have been defeated at the cross, but he is literally bound at the Return of Christ.

And the reign of those raised from the dead, in Rev 20, would be literally resurrected martyrs who reign literally for a thousand years, rather than assume they symbolize the resurrection of Christ and a mystical reign of the Church over Satan during the NT age. None of this is anything more than supposition without real evidence.

Symbolism, to be taken as such, must have a context that demands it be taken as such. And we don't have that. We should therefore assume Rev 20 is to be taken literally, with a literal thousand years, a literal resurrection of the Church, a literal reign of the Church for a thousand years, and a literal binding of Satan for a thousand years.

Some say that the context demands a "1000" be taken symbolically because the Bible regularly and normally uses "1000" in a symbolic fashion, such as "a day is as a 1000 years." In this case, the passage referred to presents a different context than the context in Rev 20 such that "1000" must be interpreted in the context in which it is used.

To transfer the meaning of "1000" in one context to another passage with a different context is an Interpretive Fallacy. "1000" can be used as a saying in "a day is as a 1000 years." But "1000" can be expressed as a literal thousand years in a context in which there is no literary saying at all, and no inference that a saying is being expressed. For example, I could say that the Byzantine Empire reigned for a thousand years, and it would literally be true, despite the fact that there are sayings in which a "1000" can be interpreted as a form of literary exaggeration.

To say Satan will be bound a thousand years, that Christians will rise from the dead and rule on earth for a thousand years, is hardly a "saying." Its own context therefore suggests this is a literal period of a thousand years.
In reality, the book of Rev. uses very little symbolism and when it does, it is explained somewhere later in the text, your ex. the beast from the sea is explained in Rev. 17. Rev. 20 isn't giving a time of resurrection, it is simply explaining where they came from which would be the rapture/resurrection of Rev. 7:9, 14
 

Truth7t7

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Christians will rise from the dead and rule on earth for a thousand years, is hardly a "saying." Its own context therefore suggests this is a literal period of a thousand years.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Randy Kluth

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Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​


Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)
Of course there are many Scriptures that prove all 3 points. And those Scripture passages have been provided time and again.

I just recently posted that in Eze 39 the birds that devour the armies of Antichrist at the 2nd Coming are followed by a period of cleansing the land, people burying corpses and birds feeding on carcasses. This conveys the idea that the world is not annihilated at the 2nd Coming, and that salvation, though fulfilled for those saints of previous ages, continues for those in the next age.
 

Randy Kluth

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In reality, the book of Rev. uses very little symbolism and when it does, it is explained somewhere later in the text, your ex. the beast from the sea is explained in Rev. 17. Rev. 20 isn't giving a time of resurrection, it is simply explaining where they came from which would be the rapture/resurrection of Rev. 7:9, 14
Most people would disagree with you that there is "very little symbolism" in the book of Revelation. In my opinion it is chalk full of symbolism. Just take the vision of Jesus in Rev 1, where a sword comes out of Jesus' mouth. Take Rev 12, where there is a great red dragon. Very little symbolism?

But I would agree with you that a lot of symbolism is explained either in the immediate context, in the whole of the book of Revelation, or in previous related passages in the biblical Prophets. We do need to be careful in interpreting symbols. Without understanding the author's intention we are left with our own subjective imagination. And with biblical interpretation that isn't wise.
 

Truth7t7

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I just recently posted that in Eze 39 the birds that devour the armies of Antichrist at the 2nd Coming are followed by a period of cleansing the land, people burying corpses and birds feeding on carcasses. This conveys the idea that the world is not annihilated at the 2nd Coming, and that salvation, though fulfilled for those saints of previous ages, continues for those in the next age.
You have been shown "Several Times" the battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 below was a "Historical War" fought long ago, with "Historical Weapons" of "Wooden Warfare", bows, arrows, shields, spears

Yes you continue to teach error, even after the truth has been presented several times before your eyes, it appears your personal agenda takes precedence over scriptural truth presented

Jesus Is The Lord

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
 
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Randy Kluth

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You have been shown "Several Times" the battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 below was a "Historical War" fought long ago, with "Historical Weapons" of "Wooden Warfare", bows, arrows, shields, spears
My point isn't that there are other interpretations of Eze 39 but that there are in fact Scriptures that Christians point to that verify mortal humanity continues after the Battle of Armageddon. You asked, Where are the Scriptures? And my answer is, There are many such Scriptures, even though you simply dismiss them by your own chosen interpretations.
Yes you continue to teach error, even after the truth has been presented several times before your eyes, it appears your personal agenda takes precedence over scriptural truth
You continue to fight and divide Christians over prophetic interpretations, calling Christians who have other interpretations "teachers of error." I could see this if someone was denying Jesus is God or that he died for our sins. But when you divide Christians over controversial matters in which Christians historically have disagreed, then you're a trouble-maker. I would advise you to take a more peaceable approach, though based on your past performance I don't expect it.

To answer the problem of "bows and arrows," or outdated weaponry, I would argue that prophecies could only project into the future based on the current technology that they had. To "burn bows" would be the equivalent in modern times of destroying weapons, or annihilating military hardware.

That Eze 39 does apply to the endtimes seems clear, since there is the regular theme in the Prophets in which Israel is finally delivered for all time. That hasn't happened yet! Not only that, but the description is very much like the description of the endtime battle of Armageddon, Rev 16-19, with the carrion birds, etc.

Eze 39.7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of."

Eze 39.4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals.

Rev 19.17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
 

Truth7t7

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My point isn't that there are other interpretations of Eze 39 but that there are in fact Scriptures that Christians point to that verify mortal humanity continues after the Battle of Armageddon. You asked, Where are the Scriptures? And my answer is, There are many such Scriptures, even though you simply dismiss them by your own chosen interpretations.

You continue to fight and divide Christians over prophetic interpretations, calling Christians you have other interpretations "teachers of error." I could see this if someone was denying Jesus is God or that he died for our sins. But when you divide Christians over controversial matters in which Christians historically have disagreed, then you're a trouble-maker. I would advise you to take a more peaceable approach, though based on your past performance I don't expect it.

To answer the problem of "bows and arrows," or outdated weaponry, I would argue that prophecies could only project into the future based on the current technology that they had. To "burn bows" would be the equivalent in modern times of destroying weapons, or annihilating military hardware.
Your claims are "Laughable"

As you have been shown Ezekiel Chapter 39 is describing a historical war fought long ago with wooden weapons

Your claims that a spear is now equivalent to a M-16 rifle or whatever is a joke

No Israel isn't going to be burning "Future Weapons" for seven years, as it clearly describes the event surrounding a time when people are burning wood for fuel "100% Historical"

You are clearly presented truth and you continue to teach error in willful deception

You have been shown "Several Times" the battle seen in Ezekiel Chapter 39 below was a "Historical War" fought long ago, with "Historical Weapons" of "Wooden Warfare", bows, arrows, shields, spears

Yes you continue to teach error, even after the truth has been presented several times before your eyes, it appears your personal agenda takes precedence over scriptural truth presented

Jesus Is The Lord

Ezekiel 39:9-10KJV
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
 
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ewq1938

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Most people would disagree with you that there is "very little symbolism" in the book of Revelation. In my opinion it is chalk full of symbolism.


It's common for some people to claim how symbolic Revelation is, usually saying it's the most symbolic book and "mostly symbolic" but I think that's an exaggeration. I find the book to be mostly literal like the letters to the churches and the many times John saw activities happening in heaven and on the Earth and the description of life in the eternity. There's a handful of very symbolic language like the dragon and the beasts and the winepress etc. Isn't Revelation actually more like 70-80 percent literal and maybe 20-30 percent symbolic?

All numbers in Revelation are literal and exact.

42 months is 42 months.
144,000 is 144,000.
3 and a half days is 3 and a half days.
7 seals are 7 seals.
7 trumpets are 7 trumpets.
7 vials are 7 vials.
24 elders are 24 elders.
1260 days is 1260 days.
And yes, a thousand years is a thousand years.

Non-literal or non-exact amounts:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 

Randy Kluth

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It's common for some people to claim how symbolic Revelation is, usually saying it's the most symbolic book and "mostly symbolic" but I think that's an exaggeration. I find the book to be mostly literal like the letters to the churches and the many times John saw activities happening in heaven and on the Earth and the description of life in the eternity. There's a handful of very symbolic language like the dragon and the beasts and the winepress etc. Isn't Revelation actually more like 70-80 percent literal and maybe 20-30 percent symbolic?

All numbers in Revelation are literal and exact.

42 months is 42 months.
144,000 is 144,000.
3 and a half days is 3 and a half days.
7 seals are 7 seals.
7 trumpets are 7 trumpets.
7 vials are 7 vials.
24 elders are 24 elders.
1260 days is 1260 days.
And yes, a thousand years is a thousand years.

Non-literal or non-exact amounts:

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
I suppose that's sort of the point I was trying to make. The use of a few symbols and metaphors doesn't make the story symbolic. Even if John is seeing visions filled with symbols, he is literally seeing those visions and those symbols! And it doesn't mean either that he isn't literally seeing them nor that everything else in the story isn't literal.

Let's say John sees the temple and the ark in heaven. Who knows whether he is just seeing something symbolic or not? Maybe he is seeing the real items that portray something the equivalent of those? In this case, we can have a symbol of something real, and the account of it taking place is absolutely literal.

The point is, we should take an account literally until the context explains that this is not meant to be taken literally. I don't know that the use of outmoded symbols such as the reference to the 144,000 tribes of Israel or the temple superstructure are meant to be anything other than symbolic figures that John literally saw in heaven? But I'm sure they were meant to convey something the equivalent, rather than symbolize something completely unrelated.

In the matter of seeing the Millennium as a symbolic number representing the Church Age, I think that is representing the Millennium as something completely different than either the figure or the context warrants.

The binding of Satan at the beginning of this period does not warrant applying it to the defeat of Satan at the Cross. The 1st resurrection at the beginning of the Millennium does not warrant being applied to Christ's resurrection. The reign of Christ and the martyred saints during the Millennium does not warrant being applied to the reign of Christianity over the Devil in the NT age. These things are really a huge leap from the context as well as from the figures used.

I was just referring to how Amills use the argument that because the book of Revelation uses a lot of symbolism that one can take just about anything in the book of Revelation and apply it symbolically. The 1st book I ever read interpreting the book of Revelation by Lenski, way back in maybe '71 or '72, saw virtually everything in an allegorical or symbolic way. But for a long time I've rejected that sort of interpretation, which is what Origen and Augustine did, initiating historical Amillennialism.

There are many works in literature designed to be allegories. Think Aesop's Fables. I think the legends of the Greek gods were sort of allegories, depicting reality as acts of divine intelligence evident in nature.

However, I don't think that was the purpose of the book of Revelation. Neither the Scriptures nor the book of Revelation were allegories, except perhaps the Song of Solomon. You decide.
 

Randy Kluth

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Exactly bro! They have to say that to make the book fit their false teaching. The book is saturated in symbolism. But one needs eyes to see to understand it.
Having "eyes to see" have to do with parables. You're making my point. The book of Revelation is *not* a parable.
 

jeffweeder

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Exactly bro! They have to say that to make the book fit their false teaching. The book is saturated in symbolism. But one needs eyes to see to understand it.
Thats why the whole book is addressed to his very own bond servants and nobody else.

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].

Jesus had already testified to these things Yes...Jn 5 is one example.
 

WPM

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Thats why the whole book is addressed to his very own bond servants and nobody else.

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].

Jesus had already testified to these things Yes...Jn 5 is one example.

I agree. There is no one as blind as one who cannot see. They cannot be objective because their theology will not let them. They interpret the whole of Scripture by their skewed view of one symbolic chapter - Revelation 20 - in the most obscure setting in Scripture. That is insane hermeneutics. They do not even know where it is located in time. They contradict numerous Scripture. That is why they are quick to throw ad hominem.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Thats why the whole book is addressed to his very own bond servants and nobody else.

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].

Jesus had already testified to these things Yes...Jn 5 is one example.
It's dangerous to turn literal Scripture into allegories and symbolism to be made into whatever one wants to make it. When cults appeal to "special revelation," our warning bells should sound off.
 

jeffweeder

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It's dangerous to turn literal Scripture into allegories and symbolism to be made into whatever one wants to make it. When cults appeal to "special revelation," our warning bells should sound off.
Why are you saying this me Randy?
I quoted the opening verses of Rev before I opened my mouth. I do not have any special revelation; the verse speaks for itself.
What testimony of Jesus is John alluding to other than what he had already been told by the Master? Why not factor this into discernment of the book as a number 1 priority.?

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].
 
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ewq1938

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Why are you saying this me Randy?
I quoted the opening verses of Rev before I opened my mouth. I do not have any special revelation; the verse speaks for itself.
What testimony of Jesus is John alluding to other than what he had already been told by the Master? Why not factor this into discernment of the book as a number 1 priority.?

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].


How much of that scripture is added by you?
 

Randy Kluth

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Why are you saying this me Randy?
I quoted the opening verses of Rev before I opened my mouth. I do not have any special revelation; the verse speaks for itself.
What testimony of Jesus is John alluding to other than what he had already been told by the Master? Why not factor this into discernment of the book as a number 1 priority.?

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions].
It may not apply to you, Jeff. The reason I quoted it was because you gave no argument for anything other than your appeal to "revelation," and the seeming argument that our view, Amill or Premill, comes from "revelation." That screams "Special Revelation!"

You may not have meant this, but for those who might want to ignore actual reasoned arguments for Special Revelation, I thought I had better say this. If not for you, it may be for somebody else. Whatever your view, Amill or Premill, it is based on a proper understanding of the book's contents, conceptually, and not on Special Revelation.

For example, Jesus gave parables not because understanding them conceptually required Special Revelation, but only because those with a pure heart would be able to apply them properly. The book of Revelation, on the other hand, is not a parable. Yet it still requires Special Revelation, as you indicate. It just requires a basic conceptual understanding of the contents of the book, and not a mystical means of interpreting its symbols. We don't get "prophetic instructions" from God as to how to interpret the book as an allegory.

My point is that Special Revelation may not circumvent what is otherwise understood conceptually. Just like a parable can be understood properly, without Special Revelation, so can the book of Revelation be understood properly, without Special Revelation. It just requires a pure heart to properly apply the book of Revelation to our lives. It has little to do with understanding what the book is saying conceptually.

The book of Revelation does include some coded information, because the Romans were not going to be given information by which to persecute Christians further. However, conceptually, the book of Revelation does not rely on mystical interpretation. It is straightforward in what it says, and the symbolism is used to enhance an understanding of future things in abbreviated form, before the actual history evolves.

Mormonism uses "special glasses" to decode their Scriptures. Well, the book of Revelation is not a cryptogram, requiring "special glasses." It is straight forward in its concepts, and only requires Special Revelation to understand how to be pure and how to fit ourselves into "the saints," and the wicked pagans into the "Antichrists." I hope you know what I mean?
 

rockytopva

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From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

It is my estimations that we are at the end of the Laodicean church age along with the restoration of Israel. I do not believe we are that far away for things to wrap up... Uh-oh... Timing... And to say that these dates are just estimations...

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

The main rule for premillennials is that Christ comes as a thief and it is his will for we to live our lives as though he could come today.