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Sabbath Day question

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by lastsecman, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. lastsecman

    lastsecman New Member

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    The Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, Christian Sabbath on Sunday, which day of Sabbath is more correct?
     
  2. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    The Fourth Commandment states:"Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for G-d. You have six days to labour and do all your work, but the seventh is a Shabbat for ADONAI your G-d. On it you are not to do any kind of work - not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female servants, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property. For in six days, ADONAI made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day He rested. This is why ADONAI blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for Himself." (Exodus 20:8-11).Saturday is the seventh day of the week, while Sunday is the first day of the week. The seventh day according to G-d's calendar is and always has been the Sabbath day. Although man has modified calendars through the centuries, the seven-day weekly cycle has remained intact throughout history. The days of the week have always remained in their proper order, with Sunday as the first day of the week and Saturday as the seventh. "The Jews were entrusted with the very Words of G-d" (Romans 3:1-2), and they have preserved the seventh-day Shabbat faithfully since well before Yeshua's time to this day.So how did Sunday become the Christians' primary day of rest and worship?? Although the concept of rest has largely disappeared, most denominations continue to hold their worship services on Sunday. You can search throughout the Bible, but you willfind no authority to alter the day of worship. James Cardinal Gibbons, Catholic educator and archbishop of Baltimore in the late 1800s and early 1900s, was blunt about the change: "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." (The Faith Of Our Fathers, 1917, p. 89).The change in Shabbat to Sunday was made long after the writing of the New Testament. Observance of Sunday as the primary day of worship appears to have begun during the reign of Emperor Hadrian (A.D. 117-135), who harshly persecuted Jews throughout the Roman Empire. Hadrian specifically prohibited practices of Judaism, including observance of Shabbat. To placate Hadrian, Christians in Rome abandoned the seventh day and turned to Sunday, observed by the Romans as a day of worship of the sun. This pagan observance of Sunday as a day of rest and worship continued from the Roman Catholic Church into subsequent Protestant denominations. This is a clear and direct disobedience to G-d, and also Yeshua Ha'Moshiach and the apostles who faithfully observed the seventh-day Shabbat, the only day authorised in the Bible.The rest at home/convocation confusion arises from an interpretation of the word used (only in Leviticus, incidentally - "convocation" isn't mentioned in Genesis or Exodus) which is:מקרא miqrâ', and means "called" - so it may indicate that the beginning of Shabbat was publicly announced, and if you've ever seen Chareidi Jews in Jerusalem, yelling that Shabbat has begun when they spot people working, or stoning cars (its is forbidden to ride in a car during Shabbos), you'll get an idea of what this "calling" may have been. However, as it is in leviticus, we also see it in light of temple ordinances. Since the destruction of the temple, the Jewish home has replaced it, which is why there is no Temple observance for Shabbos and instead the major part of its observance is undertaken at home. Prayers and symbolic acts replace the Holy Temple services and synagogue services and traditional Jewish home life become a constant reminder to Jews everywhere of what was lost and the traditions which will be reinstated to them with the coming of the Messiah and the eventual rebuilding of the Temple.
     
  3. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    I had been adopted and at age 40 found out I was the daughter of a Jewish woman who was the daughter of a Jewish woman.. I began to try to understand what this meant by devouring the Word cover to cover. I was impressed to keep sabbath and began to right away. It was hard at first, we are so used to using Saturday as the day to shop, clean, travel, go to football games. But after time it became such a blessing to me. It is a time set aside for God. I often have to explain to the world why I cannot participate with them any more on this day.. I am saying to all "I believe God created the earth and all things in it. I will be obediant to His Word no matter what the world does."On occasion an emegency has arisen and I have to "get an ox out of a ditch" on the sabbath. I honestly feel robbed. I look forward to this day of rest as I would look forward to spending time with my lover. For God is my lover and Sabbath is our "special" time together. I sometime light candles, but not always, I sometimes have people in to have a feast, but not always. I keep the Word, not the traditions of men. I am MARKED as His by this day... The world knows I am different from them because of it. I don't judge those who don't keep Sabbath, but I feel sorry for them that they are missing out on the blessing of rest our Father planned for us.. This was such a difference from the rest of the world at the time God gave it. There was no time off for anyone especially slaves. I believe God will bless a home that keeps Shabbat. He has certainly blessed mine with and because of keeping his Word.It was said in Genesis that God sanctified the Sabbath.. It was the first thing on earth He santicfied. In Ezekiel it says we will keep Sabbath during the millenium. Makes you think? I hope so....
     
  4. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (lastsecman;7330)
    The Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, Christian Sabbath on Sunday, which interpretation of Sabbath is more correct?Is it....men should rest after six days of work? OR...God already designated THAT day of Sabbath Himself and told the Jewish people that Saturday is His day, therefore we should rest in that day appointed by Him?Also, in the Bible, concerning the Sabbath, it says: 'We are to rest at home, no son or daughter, manservant or maidservant, wife or stranger, cattle or *** may work on the Sabbath. Yet it also says that its a day of holy convocation, therefore it contradicts the rest-at-home? Because one goes to temple/church for fellowship with others, therefore does not rest at home?
    I had asked this question once, lastsecman, and my understanding from the answers was that Christ is our Sabbath. We rest in him. Finding a church that teaches the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, with understanding; is next to impossible for me. So I study with Pastor Arnold Murray on weekdays. I am reading thru the Bible ( the Companion Bible which is great study Bible) from the begining. God is no respector of persons, and all are equal, Jew and Gentile; whosoever will be saved that beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ.In the book of James and Apostle Paul talks about we are all equal in Christ and making distinctions is evil.I just thought I'd mention that since even though we should be proud of our hertiage, whatever it is, we are all equal in Christ Jesus.
     
  5. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath day is the seventh day. God worked six days and rested the seventh. The seventh day is our Saturday (which is the modern day Jew's Sabbath Day - from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. The Hebrew day begins at sundown the day prior). Over time, the Sabbath became to be observed by Christians on the first day of the week (our Sunday). But all the wrangling over which day is the true Sabbath Day is moot, for Christ became our Sabbath (our rest), our Passover, our Circumcision (Rom 2:29) and the one time offering for our sin. And even Jesus did many of His works on the Sabbath Day (which got Him in much 'trouble' with the Jews): Matt 12:1-8 1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, ["] I will have [desire] mercy, and not sacrifice ["] [(quote from Hos 6:6. see below)], ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (KJV) Hosea 6:6 6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. (KJV) After the Gospels (which were prior to Christ's fulfilling), the only mention of Sabbath is regarding the Jews that they (Disciples) were trying to convert to Christianity. The Apostles did not teach that observing the day of rest (the Sabbath) was necessary to salvation, quite the contrary: Col 2:8-17 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (KJV) Acts 15:5-31 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. (KJV) In addition to Sabbath, and Circumcision which Christ fulfilled (circumcision is now of the heart and includes women - Rom 2:29), Christ became our Passover as well: 1 Cor 5:6-8 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (KJV)
     
  6. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    Yeshua didn't work during Shabbat; and if you look again, you'll see His disagreement was with the legalistic pharises, not "the Jews" - Matthew 12, Mark 2 and Luke 6 are misconstrued to imply that He broke the Sabbath commandment. From Mark’s account, "He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, 'Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?'" (Mark 2:23-24). The Pharisees were an excessively strict branch of Judaism holding considerable religious authority during Yeshuas time, and they were extreme in their interpretation of what was allowed during Shabbat. Their question would make it appear the disciples were hard at work gathering grain and were confronted by the Pharisees for violating it. But Luke’s account clarifies the disciples' actions: As they "went through the grainfields" they "plucked the heads of grain and ate them, rubbing them in their hands" (Luke 6:1). They did this because they were hungry (Matthew 12:1), not because they were harvesting the field.Their acts were perfectly acceptable according to the laws G-d had given the nation of Israel. As a matter of fact, G-d made specific allowance for picking handfuls of grain from another person's field (Deuteronomy 23:25). G-d even told His people to leave portions of their fields unharvested so the poor and travelers would be able to eat what was left (Leviticus 19:9-10; 23:22). The disciples were walking through the field, and as they walked they picked heads of grain, rubbed them in their hands to remove the chaff, then ate the kernels. The Pharisees, who were among the most strict in their rules concerning Shabbat, viewed the disciples' actions as "reaping" and "threshing," which were among the 39 categories of work forbidden on that day. Although these actions did not violate the Shabbat commandment, they did violate the Pharisees' man-made regulations. The Pharisees viewed the disciples' conduct as "not lawful on the Sabbath" and criticized them for it.Yeshua pointed out that King David and his hungry followers, when they were fleeing King Saul's armies, were given bread that was normally to be eaten only by priests, yet they were guiltless in G-d's sight (Mark 2:25-26). He also pointed out that even the priests serving in the temple of G-d labored on the Shabbat by conducting worship services and performing sacrifices, but G-d held them blameless.In both examples, the spirit and intent of the law were not broken, and both instances were specifically allowed by G-d for the greater good, Yeshua said. He emphasized that G-d's law allowed for mercy, and the Pharisees were completely wrong in elevating their harsh, humanly devised regulations above everything else, including mercy. He said that, because of the Pharisees' distorted view, they had actually turned matters upside down. "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath," He asserted. Because of their narrow, legalistic view of Shabbat, the seventh day of the week had become a hardship, weighted down with hundreds of rules and regulations about what was and wasn't permissible on that day. Yeshau, however, pointed out the true purpose of the day intended from its inception: G-d created the day to be a blessing, a time for genuine rest from normal labors rather than an unmanageable burden. It was a time to be enjoyed, not endured. Further, He said the Sabbath was created for all mankind, not just for the nation of Israel.
     
  7. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    He did ignore the religious leaders' misguided, restrictive regulations of the Shabbat, but He never broke G-d's fourth commandment. Had He done so, He would have sinned (1 John 3:4), yet Yeshua never sinned. He lived a sinless life so He could be our perfect sacrifice, the Savior of all mankind (1 Peter 2:22; Ephesians 5:2; 1 John 4:14). It would have been unthinkable for Yeshua to disobey G-d's commandments. He said of Himself, "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He [G-d the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (John 5:19).In His own words, He did exactly what the Father did. Yet some mistakenly think He came to overturn G-d's holy law and remove it as a standard of guidance and behavior for mankind. "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me," He said (John 5:30). Yeshua's motivation was to please the Father. What the Father wanted was most important to Him. "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work," He told the disciples (John 4:34). That was His motivation, His reason for living - to do the will of G-d the Father. Through Yeshua's teaching on the Shabbat during His earthly ministry, He revealed God's will and determined to cary out G-d's work, in spite of the opposition and persecution that ultimately brought about His death.Yeshua Himself clearly denied that He intended to change or abolish the Shabbat or any part of G-d's law. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets," He said. "I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). The Greek word pleroo, translated in the bible as "fulfill," means "to make full," "to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full." In other words, Yeshua said He came to complete the law and make it perfect. How?By showing the spiritual intent and application of G-d's law. His meaning is clear from the remainder of the chapter, where He showed the spiritual intent of specific commandments. Some distort the meaning of "fulfill" to have Yeshua saying, "I did not come to destroy the law, but to end it by fulfilling it." This is entirely inconsistent with His own words. Through the remainder of the chapter, He showed that the spiritual application of the law made it even more difficult to keep, not that it was annulled or no longer necessary.Yeshua made it clear that He wasn’t abolishing any of G-d's law:"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled" (verse 18). Here a different Greek word is translated into "fulfilled": ginomai, meaning "to come into existence." Only after everything necessary would come to pass would any of G-d's law pass from existence, said Yeshua. To prevent any possible misunderstanding, He warned those who would try to abolish G-d's law: "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the"kingdom of heaven" (verse 19).Yeshua, by explaining, expanding and exemplifying G-d's law, fulfilled a prophecy of the Messiah found in Isaiah 42:21: "ADONAI your G-d is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable". The Hebrew word gadal, translated "magnify," literally means "to be or become great". Yeshua did exactly that, showing the true purpose and scope of G-d's Shabbat.When asked, "Which is the first commandment of all?" Yeshua answered: "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, ADONAI your G-d, the LORD is one. And you are to love ADONAI your G-d with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your understanding, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment" (Mark 12:28-30).Here Yeshua restated the greatest commandment (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). Those who observe the biblical Sabbath strive to obey that commandment, putting G-d first in their lives and keeping His command to observe the Shabbat. They will also follow Yeshua's instruction: "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me" (John 14:21). Yeshua Ha'Moshiach is our Lord and Master (Philippians 2:9-11). He also proclaimed that He is "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28), so we should follow His example in observing Shabbat - and all G-d's commandments - in the way that He taught and lived.
     
  8. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    Many who argue that the Shabbat was abolished in the New Testament point to the apostle Shaul's writings to justify their opinion. But is this correct? Three passages are commonly cited to support that claim - Romans 14:5-6, Colossians 2:16-17 and Galatians 4:9-10.To properly understand them we must look at each verse in context, both in the immediate context of what is being discussed and in the larger social and historical context influencing the author and his audience at the time. We must also be careful not to read our preconceived notions into the text. Examine each of these verses in context and see if Shaul indeed annulled or abolished Shabbat observance. First, let's consider Shaul’s own statements about G-d's law. More than 25 years after the death of Yeshua, Shaul wrote in Romans 7:12, "Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." In Romans 2:13 he stated, "For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of G-d, but the doers of the law will be justified." In Romans 7:22 he said, "For I delight in the law of G-d."Many falsely teach and assume that, once we have faith in Yeshua Ha'Moshiach, there is no more need to keep the law. Shaul himself addressed this concept in Romans 3:31: "Do we then make void [Greek katargeo, meaning 'destroy' or 'abolish'] the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish [Greek histemi, meaning 'erect' or 'make to stand'] the law." Faith does not abolish the law, said Shaul; it establishes and upholds it.In Acts 24 he defended himself before the Roman governor Felix against charges of dissension and sedition brought by rival religious leaders. Replying to the accusations against him, he said, "I worship the G-d of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets" (verse 14). Two years later he again defended himself against such accusations, this time before another Roman governor, Festus. "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all," he responded to the charges against him (Acts 25:8). Here, then, some 25 to 30 years after Yeshua's death and resurrection, Shaul plainly said he believed "all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets" (ie the Old Testament) and had done nothing against the law!
     
  9. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    If the Shabbat were indeed abolished in the New Testament, we should find numerous passages throughout the New Testament making that clear. The negating of one of G-d's Ten Commandments would certainly require nothing less. Yeshua said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" until all is "fulfilled," or has completely filled its purpose (Matthew 5:18). Various passages, including entire chapters of the New Testament, make clear the spiritual purpose behind such practices as animal sacrifices and temple worship (Hebrews 7:11-19; 8:1-6; 9:1-15; 10:1-18). But G-d's commandments remain.The last books written in the New Testament were, in A.D. 85-95, Yochanan's epistles and, about A.D. 95, the book of Revelation. Were the Ten Commandments abolished by that time? Notice Yochanan's words: "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him,#" and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4). Yochanan defined sin as the violation of G-d's laws. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness," he wrote (1 John 3:4).He knew that G-d's law was a law of love, defining both our love for others and our love for G-d: "By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:2-3). The intent of G-d's law from the beginning was love, as Yeshua taught: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it" (2 John 6).The book of Revelation, divinely inspired by Yeshua Ha'Moshiach Himself (Revelation 1:1), also upholds keeping God's commandments. In Revelation 12:17, shortly before yeshua's return, Ha'Satan attempts to destroy members of G-d's Church, "who keep the commandments of G-d and have the testimony of Yeshua Ha'Moshiach.” In Revelation 14:12, the saints are described as "those who keep the commandments of G-d and the faith of Yeshua." Faith and keeping G-d's commandments go hand in hand, as Shaul stated earlier (Romans 3:31).In the last chapter of the Bible, Yeshua gave a final message to the Church: "'Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work...' Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of [eternal] life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:12, 14).Clearly G-d's laws are not abolished in the New Testament.
     
  10. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    I wanted to share the joy that spending time with God and setting aside Sabbath for that purpose has been for me... I didn't answer in a biblical way , but just wanted to share what a joy is is to me. I am beginning to think that any time I share my Jewishness anywhere on a Christian site it stirs up controversy and honestly guys I am here because I need friendship , fellowship and love not controversy. I am off thread again. and I really think I will be doing a lot more reading and less posting. I am not asking for extra credit because I am a Jew, I don't think it makes me better than anyone or gets me closer to God or wiser in this Word. I have studied with Arnold Murray for 4 1/2 years and I know how he teaches... but does it make me a sinner to keep Sabbath...Am I offending God? Or am I offending you and if so, why? I was upbraided recently on another site because I stated I was a Jewish believer... I had been asked what that meant and I told them I believed in Jesus as Messiah. Then I got got 15 or so verses quoted to me about being no more a Jew... Do I have to quit being a Jew to be a Christian? I was born a Jew... When we marry Yashua it will be a Jewish wedding and YOU will be marrying a Jewish man in a JEWISH ceremony. I dont think anyone here believes keeping Sabbath will give you salvation and I am certainly trusting in the blood of Messiah and not of an ox. When Paul was speaking to the Church at Ephesis , I believe, He stated they had left their first love.... You know what he meant. they were new Christian but old Jews who had been living away from Judeah and had stopped keeping the law. That was the love they had left. Paul himself went to the temple AFTER his conversion and took a Nazarite vow... That includied a sacrifice. but not for sin.. A thanksgiving one. So He didn't condemn all the Law. If God made our bodies and know what we need to eat , couldn't He know that a day of rest is healthy also?I am not certain that you guys mean that I am wrong ....I am not saying you are wrong.... it's just been hard for me to be me around both Jew and Christian. I just don't seem to be able to have peace with either. I feel I am contantly being judged... I made it clear I don't follow tradition of men... I only keep the Word. I am not a Pharasee or a Kenite. I don't see the quotes N2 gave as an argument against keeping feast but rather that we keep them to and for Yashua, He is the center of all the feasts. He is our Passover.. I keep the feasts and the whole thing is about HIM. It am blessed by it. Why does it make you judge me? I am being judged by the keeping of a Sabbath. You quoted verse that says you should not.Some of you ask me to share the my knowledge of the feasts. but when I do it seem I have to defend mysef with others. This was a tough week for me...I am just an Israelite who happens to know which tribe I belong to ... I imagine one day you all will know, because God still has those signs around His throne Each Archangel has his face and who does he watch for those assigned by TRIBE My Archangel is Michael... yours may be also. I am sorry if I have seemed haughty and prideful, if I have made you feel like I am better than you because I am JEW.. I know I am not better or smarter or any of these things because I am a Jew, What it makes me is more rejected condemned and alone.
     
  11. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    Hey, beth [​IMG]I PMd you earlier, btw. Its true, there are some strange people around, but I love having anti-semitic Christians sniping at me. It reminds me of what we Messianic Jews must never become. You say, "I dont think anyone here believes keeping Sabbath will give you salvation"Perhaps they should!G-d created Shabbat for mankind (Mark 2:27), and there will yet come a time when all mankind will keep G-d's Shabbat.The Bible speaks of G-d's Kingdom as being established on earth when Yeshua Ha'Moshiach returns to rule as "King of kings and Lord of lords" (Revelation 11:15; 19:11-16). In addition to ruling over sons of G-d who will be changed to spirit beings and rule with Him in the Kingdom of G-d at the time of His second coming, Yeshua will rule as Head of a literal government over physical nations on earth (Psalm 22:27-28; 72:1-11; Daniel 2:34-35; Zechariah 14:8-9). At that time, all nations will be ruled by G-d's laws (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Micah 4:2; Isaiah 2:2-3; Hebrews 8:7-13).All of humanity will keep G-d's Shabbat: "'From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,' says the LORD" (Isaiah 66:23). The Sabbath will be kept by gentiles and those who were never a part of the physical nation of Israel."Thus says the LORD: 'Keep justice, and do righteousness, for My salvation is about to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and keeps his hand from doing any evil... To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast My covenant, even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."'Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants - everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant - even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer'" (Isaiah 56:1-2, 4-7). Shabbat observance is specifically mentioned as a part of the covenant G-d will make with all peoples then, and their worship of Him. It is difficult to see how people can ignore the Word of G-d when it is so clearly stated and reiterated throughout the Bible, and even replace it with the words of men. But then, "...the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."(Matthew 7:14)
     
  12. Fox

    Fox New Member

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    I study with Pastor Arnold Murray
    Is that the same Arnold Murray who stated "Lucifer was taken to the pit. Know from the 2nd chapter of 2 Thessalonians that he shall soon return. The book of Daniel very clearly states that it shall happen before the year 1981, if you have any understanding at all of the wisdom of the elect in the last days."That shows that he has no wisdom of the elect, eh? "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 13:8-9)Is that the same Pastor Murray that teaches that calling the Jews the chosen people of G-d is the gravest of sins, "if you have ever really believed that group was the chosen of God you were deceived by Satan. Repent of that even more so than your personal sins in the personal sense," and "who stands in Jerusalem today? The sons of Cain, or those who will not accept Jesus Christ. The Kenites, that founded a new nation starting in 1948."My eyes are unblinkered, it all becomes apparent at last."Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name... and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5, 11-12).
     
  13. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    (Fox;7365)
    Is that the same Arnold Murray who stated "Lucifer was taken to the pit. Know from the 2nd chapter of 2 Thessalonians that he shall soon return. The book of Daniel very clearly states that it shall happen before the year 1981, if you have any understanding at all of the wisdom of the elect in the last days."That shows that he has no wisdom of the elect, eh? "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because of your false words and lying visions, I am against you, declares the Sovereign LORD. My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD." (Ezekiel 13:8-9)Is that the same Pastor Murray that teaches that calling the Jews the chosen people of G-d is the gravest of sins, "if you have ever really believed that group was the chosen of God you were deceived by Satan. Repent of that even more so than your personal sins in the personal sense," and "who stands in Jerusalem today? The sons of Cain, or those who will not accept Jesus Christ. The Kenites, that founded a new nation starting in 1948."My eyes are unblinkered, it all becomes apparent at last."Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name... and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:4-5, 11-12).
    I have studied Scripture on my own and with Pastor Arnold Murray for 15 years and I have never heard him say anything like that. He has been misquoted many times though.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Sorry Fox If I gotta choose between what you said in these lengthy posts and Murray you lose. You are either not listening or misunderstanding or taking out of context what he has said I'm with Tom I never heard him say that
     
  15. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Is that the same Arnold Murray who stated "Lucifer was taken to the pit. Know from the 2nd chapter of 2 Thessalonians that he shall soon return. The book of Daniel very clearly states that it shall happen before the year 1981, if you have any understanding at all of the wisdom of the elect in the last days."
    I've heard this quote and others that are different many times yet no one can seem to produce the actual tape or recording. Many of the sites that condemn Arnold Murray are quite ridiculous. Entire sections are devoted to debunking Pastor Murray. One site even does the "Christian" thing and mocks Pastor Murray in a caricature drawing - are they teaching God's Word by doing this? Another site has an entire forum devoted to attacking Arnold Murray. Again, are they more worried about teaching or are they more concerned about attacking someone? Agree with Arnold Murray or not, you open the Bible and that's a whole host more of studying in God's Word than you'll get from any of these sites that make a living on attacking others.
     
  16. ROS777

    ROS777 New Member

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    (betchevy;7345)
    I had been adopted and at age 40 found out I was the daughter of a Jewish woman who was the daughter of a Jewish woman.. I began to try to understand what this meant by devouring the Word cover to cover. I was impressed to keep sabbath and began to right away. It was hard at first, we are so used to using Saturday as the day to shop, clean, travel, go to football games. But after time it became such a blessing to me. It is a time set aside for God. I often have to explain to the world why I cannot participate with them any more on this day.. I am saying to all "I believe God created the earth and all things in it. I will be obediant to His Word no matter what the world does."On occasion an emegency has arisen and I have to "get an ox out of a ditch" on the sabbath. I honestly feel robbed. I look forward to this day of rest as I would look forward to spending time with my lover. For God is my lover and Sabbath is our "special" time together. I sometime light candles, but not always, I sometimes have people in to have a feast, but not always. I keep the Word, not the traditions of men. I am MARKED as His by this day... The world knows I am different from them because of it. I don't judge those who don't keep Sabbath, but I feel sorry for them that they are missing out on the blessing of rest our Father planned for us.. This was such a difference from the rest of the world at the time God gave it. There was no time off for anyone especially slaves. I believe God will bless a home that keeps Shabbat. He has certainly blessed mine with and because of keeping his Word.It was said in Genesis that God sanctified the Sabbath.. It was the first thing on earth He santicfied. In Ezekiel it says we will keep Sabbath during the millenium. Makes you think? I hope so....
    Dear Betchevy,I know how you feel about fellowship amongst real Christians.; that's what I was looking for also, but instead all I found was debates and name calling. It doesn't surprise me you haven't found any Christian friendship anywhere on the net, neither have I.Whether Jew or Gentile, God is no respecter of persons.I ( for myself ) never ever claimed to be an expert but I do have my opinions and my beliefs which are just as valid as the next guy's and gal's.I don't feel people should teach, though, if they cause fights and hard feelings.I do listen to Pastor Murray and have for some time. He says to check him out in the word of God and if anything, he has motivated me to check him out.The slander I hear about him really makes me angry. I have found several out right lies about the man and I know these slanderers will be punished eventually.I don't give out many details about myself because, frankly, I don't trust the " Christian forums" all that much. People have to earn trust; the net is not a trustworthy place.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well for sure there's nothing like religion or politics to get people's blood boiling I on the other hand have made some very good friends on line.However admittidley I have had to toughen up my skin a little and not let insults bother me so much. You can only control what you do not what anyone else does or thinks. The net can be a two edged sword and the way I see it if you can't take a little adversity how are we going to be able to stand up to Antichrist. People that just enjoy insulting others will be judged in due time by one who is better qualified than I to judge.
     
  18. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Fox ,you must know I too have studied with Murray for 4 1/2 years.. he doesn 't teach those things you read... there are posts that say he doesn't believe in the trinity, (not so), that he is a replacement theologan, ( also not true) He teaches line by line verse by verse, tells his students to never take any man's word for anything including his own and makes us all use a Stong's concordance to check him out and all others. His main "thrust" is to uncover the pagan infiltration of the church and he makes sure if you listen for very long that you know the lie of the raptrue theory. I have learn what the Massara is and now own one, I understand the Word as well as I do because of his teachings.. He and I do not see eye to eye on all things.. I think Christmas and the trees are as bad as Easter and the eggs.. He does teach that Sabbath stuff being fullfilled...but I find more that I agree with than disagree..But if you will look at this teachings and not what others say about his teachings you will see what the truth is. I have heard him speak of "our Brother Judah "btw, he has a much better attitude than N2 toward Jews thats for sure(brother N2 you know I love you) Back to the thread now... I have a son who is a picky eater and sometimes when I try to get him to try something new he balks...but many times he has found that he loved something that he turned up his nose at many times until I wore him down. Try Sabbath.. It can't hurt you. I do disagree with PM on this. The Sabbath is not a Statute, but a LAW.. and in the top 10..All the quotes Fox gave are quotes from the Word. and I just don't think ANY man or woman gets everything 100% right on. God just doesn't let us have it all... I have even heard PM say that if He did our brains would explode. The quote you gave, N2, was for the Jews not to judge the goyim about not being Jews cause they were almost all Jews at that time...Now you are turning it around and judging the Jews with this verse.... you are taking it out of context. You think Paul quit being a Jew when he found Christ... He did not... I will not... I won't let what any of you think of me keep me from pleasing my Father..He says I am to keep the sabbath forever, not just til Messiah comes...If you can't love me anyway thats between you and Father... I can love you even if you seem to hate, judge and make me cry. I may not understand you but like PM says I will not let you treat me like a second class citizen because I am Jewish.... I am a Child of KING OF THE UNIVERSE ,that makes me a princess and I have a tiara to prove it...I am the APPLE OF HIS EYE..not cause I was born anything.... but because I was adopted in this family through my Brother, who 'll be back soon so you better be careful..(PM=Pastor Murray for those who do not know)
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Very well put Betchevy you have written wise words that I hope reach the ears of those who need them
     
  20. lastsecman

    lastsecman New Member

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    Isaiah 56: 3-7 2 Blessed is the man who does this, the man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath without desecrating it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree." 4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant- 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off. 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
     
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