satan a creature or man without God

[amadeus]

@bbyrd009 @pia

bbyrd009 said: satan appears as an angel of light

pia said: Ever since I read this sentence in the Bible, I have realized that it must be either a misinterpretation or a misunderstanding, because satan has ZERO light in him, so how on earth is he supposed to suddenly stand there in front of us shining like an angel of God would.......I can see how it may mean that an idea can come to us, which 'appears' to us as if it is from the Lord and thus of the light, but can be a deception, but the being called satan, will most assuredly not have any power to show himself as a shining light anywhere, any time.....

The two above posts on another thread brought this thing of satan to my mind. While I have seen and heard many arguments in favor of the existence of the external entity called by that name, I have long discounted his existence as a separate being. Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

In school many years ago I was taught that darkness is simply the absence of light. Why would this not be so in the case of the Light? Does not Jesus say that He is the light of the world?

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

With regard to this supposed creation named satan, when was he created or born?

Where was satan’s beginning?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8

Even as Judas and Peter were devils was not Adam also a devil, the first devil? Was he not the first man that committed a sin. He sinned from the beginning.

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen 1:31

Before Adam sinned everything God created was “very good”.

Even Adam was “very good”. But…God had given Adam something He had not given the rest of His creation: the ability to make informed choices.

Those choices included the ability to move into darkness, a place without the Light of God. Both Adam and Eve moved in that direction away from the Light and into the satanic darkness.

The serpent spoke to Eve or... was it the dark yearnings within her that spoke to her since it involved disobeying God and His Way of Light...

 

[Dcopymope]

The two above posts on another thread brought this thing of satan to my mind. While I have seen and heard many arguments in favor of the existence of the external entity called by that name, I have long discounted his existence as a separate being. Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

This looks like something that belongs in the unorthodox section of this forum. It would be greatly appreciated if the moderators moved this, that way I can ignore it for the unbliblcal belief that it is.

 

[amadeus]

This looks like something that belongs in the unorthodox section of this forum. It would be greatly appreciated if the moderators moved this, that way I can ignore it for the unbliblcal belief that it is.

OK by me!

 

[Dcopymope]

OK by me!

Yes, because it is triggering me right now, I am on the cusp of wasting my time giving a real response to this.

 

[DPMartin]

@bbyrd009 @pia




The two above posts on another thread brought this thing of satan to my mind. While I have seen and heard many arguments in favor of the existence of the external entity called by that name, I have long discounted his existence as a separate being. Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

In school many years ago I was taught that darkness is simply the absence of light. Why would this not be so in the case of the Light? Does not Jesus say that He is the light of the world?

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." John 9:5

With regard to this supposed creation named satan, when was he created or born?

Where was satan’s beginning?

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” I John 3:8

Even as Judas and Peter were devils was not Adam also a devil, the first devil? Was he not the first man that committed a sin. He sinned from the beginning.

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.” Gen 1:31

Before Adam sinned everything God created was “very good”.

Even Adam was “very good”. But…God had given Adam something He had not given the rest of His creation: the ability to make informed choices.

Those choices included the ability to move into darkness, a place without the Light of God. Both Adam and Eve moved in that direction away from the Light and into the satanic darkness.

The serpent spoke to Eve or... was it the dark yearnings within her that spoke to her since it involved disobeying God and His Way of Light...

where do you people get your goofy ideas? Jesus says plainly:


Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


God didn't talk to a entity that didn't exist:


Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

and Jesus responded to Satan directly :


Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.


I guess you are trying to get others to believe God is daft and doesn't who or what He's doing or talking to, correct?

 

[Dcopymope]

where do you people get your goofy ideas? Jesus says plainly:


Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


God didn't talk to a entity that didn't exist:


Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

and Jesus responded to Satan directly :


Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.


I guess you are trying to get others to believe God is daft and doesn't who or what He's doing or talking to, correct?

I agree 110%. And we all wonder why the faith has become such a laughing stock in the eyes of the world, its mainly because of these goofy, weirdo beliefs. When you have believers stating something that is clearly the exact opposite of everything stated from the book they believe to be "God breathed", then they aren't giving unbelievers a legitimate reason to give the faith they claim to have the light of day. If Satan isn't a real entity, then who the hell is the angel Michael fighting against in heaven? Is he fighting against a figment of his imagination, some "dark yearning" within him?

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[amadeus]

where do you people get your goofy ideas? Jesus says plainly:


Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The word "satan" simply means adversary. Is there not an adversary within myself?

As to falling from "heaven" I guess it depends upon what is meant by heaven and which heaven. A number of years ago a very popular preacher, Jimmy Swaggert, fell from heaven. He was a man of God who became an adversary of God's and fell.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When Jesus spoke to the Jews here, he said their father was the devil. I don't think that their carnal father of flesh and bone, the husband of the mother who gave physical birth to them, was a spiritual being called satan.

God didn't talk to a entity that didn't exist:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

But God did talk to Adam, the man who had given place in his heart to the "old man" of whom Paul writes. This old man, this devil called a serpent ruled the heart of each of us until we met the Master.

and Jesus responded to Satan directly :

Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Have none of us ever argued against the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh or the pride of life within ourselves in order to avoid sinning?

I guess you are trying to get others to believe God is daft and doesn't who or what He's doing or talking to, correct?

Sometimes people want to blame their own faults or errors on someone else. The enemy we need to overcome is within ourselves.

 

[bbyrd009]

@amadeus your perspective is mirrored in Scripture, too, but of course we need scapegoats, even though we prefer not to admit it, right. And we personify spirits for more or less the same reason imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps someone could give me reason to believe that such this external or separate entity exists.

that way i don't have to look in the mirror
that way i can be made into a hypocrite when i judge others

lotsa reasons i guess!

 

[Stranger]

The word "satan" simply means adversary. Is there not an adversary within myself?

As to falling from "heaven" I guess it depends upon what is meant by heaven and which heaven. A number of years ago a very popular preacher, Jimmy Swaggert, fell from heaven. He was a man of God who became an adversary of God's and fell.


When Jesus spoke to the Jews here, he said their father was the devil. I don't think that their carnal father of flesh and bone, the husband of the mother who gave physical birth to them, was a spiritual being called satan.


But God did talk to Adam, the man who had given place in his heart to the "old man" of whom Paul writes. This old man, this devil called a serpent ruled the heart of each of us until we met the Master.

Have none of us ever argued against the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh or the pride of life within ourselves in order to avoid sinning?


Sometimes people want to blame their own faults or errors on someone else. The enemy we need to overcome is within ourselves.

Perhaps Jesus is something to imply our good nature. Jesus just means 'our salvation or saviour'. Sometimes people want to credit their goodness to someone else, like jesus. When actually it is their goodness they need to acknowledge. The goodness we need to recognize is that goodness that is within ourselves.

Just gives you the warm fuzzies.....not...vomit.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus your perspective is mirrored in Scripture, too, but of course we need scapegoats, even though we prefer not to admit it, right. And we personify spirits for more or less the same reason imo

All of us believe we are right and the system [church system] has established a whole set of ready made answers to support the continuation of our own ways... and our own beliefs.

I keep on pressing for God to help me get beyond my ways. The first necessary thing, I believe, is to admit that maybe, just maybe, some of what I believe may be error no matter who decided it right before. This includes this thing with satan. I used to be more hard-nosed about it. I still believe it, but I do see the other point of view. I am really hoping to see something new here from the other side, but I really would be surprised if I did.

Give God the glory!

 

[aspen]

All of us believe we are right and the system [church system] has established a whole set of ready made answers to support the continuation of our own ways... and our own beliefs.

I keep on pressing for God to help me get beyond my ways. The first necessary thing, I believe, is to admit that maybe, just maybe, some of what I believe may be error no matter who decided it right before. This includes this thing with satan. I used to be more hard-nosed about it. I still believe it, but I do see the other point of view. I am really hoping to see something new here from the other side, but I really would be surprised if I did.

Give God the glory!

The thing is you have to know the basics before you can transcend them. Rejecting the building blocks before you even understand their strength and limitations is to remain in ignorance. I am not suggesting you are doing this amadeus, but i have read many posts on this board that think it is ‘christian’ to reject what they do not understand.

 

[amadeus]

Perhaps Jesus is something to imply our good nature. Jesus just means 'our salvation or saviour'. Sometimes people want to credit their goodness to someone else, like jesus. When actually it is their goodness they need to acknowledge. The goodness we need to recognize is that goodness that is within ourselves.

Just gives you the warm fuzzies.....not...vomit.

Stranger

Yes, indeed! The goodness you mention within ourselves according to what Jesus said would have to be God, the only one who is good.

Of course you were saying that if I render satan as the bad part of us rather than as a separate entity, I might need to consider doing the same thing with Jesus: No separate entity, Jesus, but only that good part of us, which we call "Jesus". That would be harder I believe to establish using scripture than my idea about satan. But it bears consideration.

What was it that happened about 2000 years ago in Jerusalem on Calvary? Was there really a man, Jesus, the Son of God, who lay down his life so that we might have Life? I believe so. I am not however convinced by the scriptures that there was an entity separate from man called satan.

Satan exists according to scripture, but what exactly was satan? Can it be shown clearly by scripture that my idea is wrong?

 

[lforrest]

Jude 1:9 loses meaning if angels are not real creatures.

 

[Dcopymope]

Satan exists according to scripture, but what exactly was satan? Can it be shown clearly by scripture that my idea is wrong?

Is Michael fighting against a figment of his imagination, or some "yearning" within him or is this a separate entity? If this isn't a separate entity, then what does that make Michael?

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[Dcopymope]

Jude 1:9 loses meaning if angels are not real creatures.

I don't think it will matter what verse you cite clearly showing Satan as a literal being, which is why threads like this need to be cast into the fiery pit of 'unorthodox doctrine' where it belongs.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, indeed! The goodness you mention within ourselves according to what Jesus said would have to be God, the only one who is good.

Of course you were saying that if I render satan as the bad part of us rather than as a separate entity, I might need to consider doing the same thing with Jesus: No separate entity, Jesus, but only that good part of us, which we call "Jesus". That would be harder I believe to establish using scripture than my idea about satan. But it bears consideration.

What was it that happened about 2000 years ago in Jerusalem on Calvary? Was there really a man, Jesus, the Son of God, who lay down his life so that we might have Life? I believe so. I am not however convinced by the scriptures that there was an entity separate from man called satan.

Satan exists according to scripture, but what exactly was satan? Can it be shown clearly by scripture that my idea is wrong?

Well, if you don't believe Satan was a real entity or person, why would you believe Jesus was?

I mean if Satan is our bad self, why isn't Jesus our good self.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

The thing is you have to know the basics before you can transcend them. Rejecting the building blocks before you even understand their strength and limitations is to remain in ignorance. I am not suggesting you are doing this amadeus, but i have read many posts on this board that think it is ‘christian’ to reject what they do not understand.

What are the building blocks? I would start here:

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt 22:36-40

Every place I have been and most everyone I have known has added to those things. I have tried to go the other direction to the lowest room regularly so as to allow God elevate me if elevation is proper or necessary:

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

 

[Dcopymope]

Well, if you don't believe Satan was a real entity or person, why would you believe Jesus was?

I mean if Satan is our bad self, why isn't Jesus our good self.

Stranger

Well you see, Jesus was talking to that "dark inner yearning" within himself trying to tempt him, not a real entity. This is how its explained away, no need for it to be real you see.......................................yep.

 

[aspen]

Those verses are buildng blocks and they are part of the doctrine/dogma Passed down by the early church.

Like learning to tying your shoe, the message of the verses should become automatic, but you have to learn them first