Satans Fall

[bud02]

I thought this might make a good topic C/P from thread so just ignore the opening.

I've been watching this thread for a while in the beginning I thought you had a point to make but it seems you don't and the flow of it has lead to a catch 22 that Anastacia,is trying to break threw. Completion at the cross is exactly what was said and is just what happened. I was temped to get into this when you mentioned that Satan came before the Lord in Job. You rightly observed that he was cast down but still comes before the throne to accuse. Im going to make this quick you know the scriptures. The first casting down was done by the Father. Lk 10:18 Note; Jesus is the witness. It was Jesus that Satan was coming before in Job. I made my case here that this is Jesus,in the trinity thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Next look at what is said here by Jesus. The ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 12
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Where will Satan be cast out of? And who now will do the casting out. The first time the Father cast Him down. But as you noted he still had access to the throne where he asked to sift Job just as Jesus said to Peter, Satin is asking to sift you as wheat. Lk 22:31But that's about to end. The accuser is about to loss his right to come before the Throne.
Now look here, we see Johns testimony. War broke out in Heaven as soon as Jesus rose and took His place. This can not be speaking of any other time Rev 12. If it is still future then the loud voice verse 10 is yet future. I know salvation is NOW, and has been since Jesus rose from the dead.

Revelation 12
[sup]7[/sup] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [sup]8[/sup] but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. [sup]9[/sup] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] Here John is speaking of his brother Apostles. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

The next time Satin will be removed from the earth. Do you see the progression of Satan's fall? My point Jesus life marks the new beginning not only did the old covenant pass away but when that happened Satan was cast out from before the throne of Jesus. Fist the Father cast him down then..............quote David Ps 110:1 in Heb 1:13 Jesus cast him down, but in that Jesus over came death and brought His creation with Him, He made the way by which those He loved could come home. Now what does that leave left to be finished? Certainly not the law by which we can never be justified by. Romans 3:19-20. If you wish to place yourself under the law by all means do so. The keeping of the law is always pleasing to God. But I and my house chose to walk in the power and law of the Spirit. Romans 8:1-2

A loud VOICE John 12:28-29
A LOUD VOICE Rev 12:10
I HOPE YOU HEAR A LOUD VOICE> God Bless

 

[veteran]

I'm not sure who that debate was with, but the Rev.12 Scripture about Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth is not about his original casting out of God's Presence. That war in Heaven between Michael and Satan is yet to occur...


Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(KJV)

Back in Daniel 10, Daniel is told by the angel that none holdeth with him except Michael.

Dan 10:12-13
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

It's about this event... which is still future...

II Th 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:
(KJV)

The 2 Thess.2 Scripture is about that false one being withheld until he is revealed in his time. Verse 8 then shows the time that false one will be revealed is at Christ's second coming. That's pointing to the false one's "time" as being in the days just prior to Christ's coming. It's about the "strong delusion" that will be upon the deceived, for only the deceived won't know who that false one is until the time when he is finally revealed by Christ's coming to destroy him.

Rev.12 declares when that war in Heaven between Michael and Satan happens, there will be no more place found for Satan and his angels in heaven. That means the heavenly dimension. There's only two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, and one is the heavenly dimension. I wonder where the other dimension might be? The Rev.12:7-9 verses tell us where that other dimension of existence is.

 

[TexUs]

I'll paste my response here. I guess let's just move this topic to this standalone thread?

I been watching this thread for a while in the begininng I tought you had a point to make but it seems you don't and the flow of it has lead to a catch 22 that Anastacia,is trying to break threw. Completion at the cross is exactly what was said and is just what happened. I was temped to get into this when you mentioned that Satan came before the Lord in Job. You rightly observed that be was cast down but still comes before the throne to accuse. Im going to make this quick you know the scriptures. The first casting down was done by the Father. Lk 10:18 Note; Jesus is the witness. It was Jesus that Satan was coming before in Job. I made my case here that this is Jesus,in the trinity thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Next look at what is said here by Jesus. The ruler of this world will be cast out.

IMO your argument is flawed a bit, you may be right but here's my objection to it. If truly "no man" (original Greek of John 1) has seen the father, then Adam, Noah, and Enoch are certainly men. You cannot pick and choose who falls into this category. I also wouldn't consider Satan a man.
I also don't know of what consequence this point has on anything who it was in heaven?

RE: John 12.
You cannot possibly believe Satan was cast out of this world.
Just one example is 2 Cor 11... Paul references Satan as an angel of light and warns people of him, this is AFTER Christ spoke these words, so it's impossible he was cast out then. The text refers to the victory at the cross, not the literal abolishing of Satan, that's the only conclusion to arrive at that I see taking all Biblical context into affect.

I also don't see "lose his right to come before the throne" supported anywhere at all here.

Now look here, we see Johns testimony. War broke out in Heaven as soon as Jesus rose and took His place.

You are either:
A) Picking and choosing from Revelation that which is future, that which is past, to suit your argument of the day, which flies in staunch opposition to Rev 1:19, the clear ordering of the letter.
B) Take all of Revelation as past

Which is it???? I'm curious what your view is if you even consider this as past?

This can not be speaking of any other time Rev 12. If it is still future then the loud voice verse 10 is yet future. I know salvation is NOW, and has been since Jesus rose from the dead.

It seems you are basing this on being past on your (in my opinion, flawed) presupposition that Satan has already been eliminated from heaven which I do not think to be the case. I do not believe that so to me, this passage is infinitely easier to deal with. I have absolutely no issues considering this a future text.

 

[bud02]

IMO your argument is flawed a bit, you may be right but here's my objection to it. If truly "no man" (original Greek of John 1) has seen the father, then Adam, Noah, and Enoch are certainly men. You cannot pick and choose who falls into this category. I also wouldn't consider Satan a man.
I also don't know of what consequence this point has on anything who it was in heaven?

I never said that they seen the Father I said they seen Jesus. Read what I posted earlier in the thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Who or where did I say Satin was a man?

RE: John 12.
You cannot possibly believe Satan was cast out of this world.
Just one example is 2 Cor 11... Paul references Satan as an angel of light and warns people of him, this is AFTER Christ spoke these words, so it's impossible he was cast out then. The text refers to the victory at the cross, not the literal abolishing of Satan, that's the only conclusion to arrive at that I see taking all Biblical context into affect.

I also don't see "lose his right to come before the throne" supported anywhere at all here.

I don't know how your getting this concept from what I posted. First I never said that Satan was thrown out of the world. I said he was thrown out of heaven please reread my post.
I said the next step was he will be cast from the earth "yet future". In the first account the Father cast him from before himself. At the resurrection Jesus had him cast from heaven. now his only abode is the earth see Rev 12:12 woe to the earth. Hes here right now. But if we are now saved threw grace he is no longer accusing us before the thrown. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Why because of Jesus completed work on the cross.

You are either:
A) Picking and choosing from Revelation that which is future, that which is past, to suit your argument of the day, which flies in staunch opposition to Rev 1:19, the clear ordering of the letter.

Take all of Revelation as past

Which is it???? I'm curious what your view is if you even consider this as past?

Now I don't understand your question at all.
[sup]rev 1:19[/sup] Write[sup][i][/sup] the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

It seems you are basing this on being past on your (in my opinion, flawed) presupposition that Satan has already been eliminated from heaven which I do not think to be the case. I do not believe that so to me, this passage is infinitely easier to deal with. I have absolutely no issues considering this a future text.

If its a future text your still waiting for salvation then. [sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Your still waiting for salvation, strength, and the kingdom of our God then? Rev 12 is broken into 3 parts from Johns view 2000 years ago. the past 1-6 including a complete over view of the whole chapter. verse 7-12 what had taken place after the resurrection. See here in verse [sup]5[/sup] She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. [sup]6[/sup] Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Red is detailed in verses 7-12 green is detailed in verses 13-17 verses 1-6 are history leading up to Christ. My outline in the first post was Satans fall, thrown down by the Father, second thrown out of Heaven by Jesus. The next step yet future is for him Satan to be removed from the earth. Pretty darn simple if you ask me. But people don't study for themselves they believe what people teach them. their to busy, they want the drive threw service on sunday and their done.

Now I believe the 70th week of Danial happened right after the 69th. But because of Darby 90% of Christians are waiting for it to be fulfilled yet in the future. Thats a topic in itself.And thats what you were taught everything from rev chapter 4 forward is for those left behind. Or If your a non rapturest it will happen in a 3.5 year future period, or a 7 year future period.

If Satan was not removed from before the throne then who is Jesus speaking about here.

John 12
[sup]27[/sup] “Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. [sup]28[/sup] Father, glorify Your name.”
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.”
[sup]29[/sup] Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”
[sup]30[/sup] Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. [sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. [sup]32[/sup] And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” [sup]33[/sup] This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

Was he talking about Cesar or the Pharisees? Who is the ruler of this world? and where was he throne out of? Satan and he was thrown out of heaven because of Jesus victory.
Hes still in the world but hes not accusing us before the throne in heaven any longer. If this stuff has not happened then were living a lie.

 

[TexUs]

I never said that they seen the Father I said they seen Jesus. Read what I posted earlier in the thread. http://www.christian...dpost__p__92473
Who or where did I say Satin was a man?

I thought Satan might be inferred as since he couldn't have seen the father, surely it was the son, and since Satan is not a man, John was not talking of him.

And I do realize you said they've seen Jesus. But your logic at arriving that is flawed, is what I'm saying.
You're basing "they've seen Jesus" on "No man has seen the father". And as you point out this cannot be true as men HAVE seen the father so it cannot be taken at literal face value here, so IMO picking and choosing at your own whim whom God the Father was and whom God the Son was in the OT is folly when attempting to do so on this basis.

I don't know how your getting this concept from what I posted. First I never said that Satan was thrown out of the world. I said he was thrown out of heaven please reread my post.

John 12:31 supports Satan being driven out from the world, not heaven.

Now I don't understand your question at all.
[sup]rev 1:19[/sup] Write[sup][i][/sup] the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

It's ordered.
He wrote what he has seen (vision of Christ), he wrote what is (the letters to the churches) and the rest of Revelation would be that which will be future.

Now, if you take Revelation 12 to be past, you must also take all of the verses before it as past as well. Where in history are the two witnesses? The seven trumpet judgements have happened? When? The seal judgements? When?

If its a future text your still waiting for salvation then. [sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

Your still waiting for salvation, strength, and the kingdom of our God then?

When does it say they came right then? The Greek word used here is similar to our English understanding, it can refer to something present OR past.

If Satan was not removed from before the throne then who is Jesus speaking about here.

It's still Satan.
He got shamed (not banished) out of heaven sometime after the fall. That's his present state. Jesus was a witness to this. Revelation 12 speaks if his banishment out of heaven for good, to earth, future. Revelation 13 goes on to some of his activities on earth. Then through Revelation we see more events including the bowls of wrath. Then we see him used by Babylon. We see Babylon fall. We then see in Revelation 20 where he's finally cast into the lake of burning sulfur forever.

 

[bud02]

Thank You TexUs but I'm really not in the mood to continue the dialog.
We just have a difference in foundational understanding. Have you discovered your answer to law vs grace yet?
We are "Christians" perhaps I should ask has the answer been reveled?

 

[TexUs]

Thank You TexUs but I'm really not in the mood to continue the dialog.
We just have a difference in foundational understanding. Have you discovered your answer to law vs grace yet?
We are "Christians" perhaps I should ask has the answer been reveled?

The answer is found in the text. You're arriving at your conclusions by assumptions.

I let the Bible interpret the Bible and not add anymore than what the Bible actually speaks of.

The thing about praying to petition the will of God, or seeking for an answer to be revealed, while it happens and while it's good, do you think God changes? If God's word says murdering is wrong, do you think he'll EVER reveal to ANYONE anything different than that? If the Bible says "what you've seen, what is, what's to come"- do you think God will, 2,000 years later, change the order of Revelation? No.
Taking an example from another thread, if the Bible tells a person not to have sex before marriage, what, exactly, do you expect might be revealed differently? I question the need to pray or petition God's will when it's clearly spelled out in the Bible.

 

[veteran]

The idea that Rev.12:7-12 was about the timing of Christ's crucifixion and that the 70th week of Daniel 9 is past comes from the schools of Preterism (from preter which means what is past).

Extreme Preterism looks at Christ's Resurrection and His appearance to His disciples forty days up to Pentecost as the second coming of Christ. Those believe Christ's Kingdom is only a spiritual manifesting and that it is already fulfilled today, and that Christ's Church on earth is to bring His Kingdom literally on the earth through themselves, with no literal return of Christ Jesus to this earth. It's a great doctrine for those on the one world government and New World Order idea, which is why many Preterist Churches today readily align with other religions of the world within United Nations groups like the World Council of Churches. It's a doctrine that supports the world as it is today slowly evolving over time.

Partial Preterism doesn't go as far, and believes Christ's second coming is still sometime in the future. Yet many of its supporters still consider much Bible prophecy for the last days is already past.


In reality per God's Word though, Christ's Kingdom has only come in part, through His servants on earth known as the many membered body of Christ, and there is yet to come the full manifesting of His Kingdom on earth and our literal redemption sometime in the future, with Christ's literal return to this earth per both OT and NT prophecy.

On a deeper note, even a portion of Christ's literal Kingdom was manifest upon the earth after His Resurrection and The Gospel was preached primarily in the West first, and the forming of the western Christian nations came about. Christ's coming reign on David's throne on earth is prophesied, and future Jerusalem on earth is where that will happen in final. This earth belongs to God's people of all nations who believe on His Son Jesus Christ. The wicked will not inherit the earth, we who stand in Christ Jesus will inherit it. Because the unbelieving Jews refused Christ Jesus and His Kingdom, the Kingdom was put in abeyance. But Christ's vineyard, which meant the majority of God's chosen per Isaiah 5, was moved and given to another 'nation' that would bring forth its fruits (Matt.21). That manifested in the West under The Gospel.

Those in the western Christian nations under conviction of The Gospel by The Holy Spirit have since preached Christ's Kingdom of the 'now' because of God's blessings showing up among the Christian West, but some mistook the manifesting of those blessings to mean Christ's Kingdom had already come then prior to the fulness of the Gentiles coming in. It was necessary for the 'base' of The Gospel be setup first, and Christ did that first in the Christian West, many of the Gentiles being converted there along with His vineyard scattered there (ten tribed house of Israel). Then it has been the responsibility of the Christian West to send ambassadors to all nations to preach The Gospel, until the time of the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. That time is still coming, as The Gospel is still being preached outside the West.

The next phase Bible prophecy reveals is the taking over of the Christian West and God's people by Christ's enemies under a world kingdom compared to the historical pagan kingdoms of the Book of Daniel, especially pointing to the historical kingdom of Babylon (Rev.13:1-2; Rev.17:15; Rev.17-18). It is to involve a coming false messiah setup as king in place of Christ, in Jerusalem, requiring all to bow in false worship to an idol image of the beast. It will cause many believers to fall away from Christ and by deception bow to that false one who comes first. It's this phase of timing that the Rev.12:6-17 Scripture is set for, at the very end of this world during the coming great tribulation Christ forewarned His servants about. It is at the end of this last phase that we may expect Christ's literal coming to gather us to Him to His Jerusalem He will establish on this earth in the holy land (Zech.14; Ezekiel 40-48; Rev.20-22).

 

[bud02]

take a bow and wave good-by vet B)

 

[aspen]

take a bow and wave good-by vet B)

So I see you are teaching Vet to worship you? You better not let Anastacia see this.........

 

[TexUs]

Bud, you can't articulate your arguments so you just insult people that disagree with your opinion?

The idea that Rev.12:7-12 was about the timing of Christ's crucifixion and that the 70th week of Daniel 9 is past comes from the schools of Preterism (from preter which means what is past).

In my opinion I have no problem calling Daniel 9 past (just read the text! At the end of the prophecy, the temple is again destroyed! IE, the current state).
But Revelation 12 I take issue with.

Extreme Preterism looks at Christ's Resurrection and His appearance to His disciples forty days up to Pentecost as the second coming of Christ.

I thought it was the destruction of the temple, to be the second coming?
I guess you could consider me a partial Preterist as I do believe Christ came a second time in 70AD to destroy the temple, but "THE" coming is still future.
Limiting Christ to a "second" and "one final" coming is not Biblical at all. The Bible never uses the word second, anywhere. Nor does it say he'll only come once more.

Thus I believe Daniel 9 is past and Matthew 24 as well. Yet I hold Revelation as future.

Most futurists hinge their beliefs on the notion that the temple will be rebuilt. Nowhere does Christ command this. It'd actually be pointless, he destroys the temple system and then re-establishes it??? So IMO, whenever the temple is referenced, it's time to think, "is this past"?

 

[veteran]

In my opinion I have no problem calling Daniel 9 past (just read the text! At the end of the prophecy, the temple is again destroyed! IE, the current state).
But Revelation 12 I take issue with.

If Dan.9:24-27 is properly read, it will reveal the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 is still expecting, and is related to the two 1260 time periods given in Rev.12 about the very end of this world.

I thought it was the destruction of the temple, to be the second coming?
I guess you could consider me a partial Preterist as I do believe Christ came a second time in 70AD to destroy the temple, but "THE" coming is still future.
Limiting Christ to a "second" and "one final" coming is not Biblical at all. The Bible never uses the word second, anywhere. Nor does it say he'll only come once more.

Maybe you haven't heard some of the more extreme Preterist views that treat Christ's appearing to His disciples after His Resurrection as the second coming, because they treat Christ's return only in a spiritual coming sense. I debated with a military chaplain on this who should have known better.

Thus I believe Daniel 9 is past and Matthew 24 as well. Yet I hold Revelation as future.

Matthew 24 includes the signs of Christ's return, which obviously has not happenned yet today. Our Lord Jesus was giving the seven signs of the Book of Revelation in that Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. I understand how Matt.24 is applied to 69 A.D., but some of the signs given there must be looked over to believe it's all past history, particularly the sign given there of Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

Most futurists hinge their beliefs on the notion that the temple will be rebuilt. Nowhere does Christ command this. It'd actually be pointless, he destroys the temple system and then re-establishes it??? So IMO, whenever the temple is referenced, it's time to think, "is this past"?

I'm not a Futurist, nor a Dispensationalist. Just because a Bible believer admits there's still much Bible prophecy yet to be fulfilled today does not make one a Futurist. I don't follow Darby's theology either, I believe in a post-tribulational return of Christ Jesus, just like God's Word teaches.

As for another temple, Christ doesn't have to be involved in that anyway, except its destruction when He returns. It's those who refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour that are behind the building of that temple. And yes, it is required to fulfill the prophecy of Revelation and Christ's return. In Noah's day, the majority didn't believe God's warning of a coming flood either, nor did they see any signs of its coming, not until it happenned. Rev.11 involves a rebuilt temple on the 2nd woe - 6th trumpet period.

 

[TexUs]

If Dan.9:24-27 is properly read, it will reveal the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 is still expecting

Not if it ended on the week of his crucifixion.
I don't think the unity of this passage (they are described in blocks) is something to be taken lightly and I think it was just that: blocks. I see absolutely no scriptural support at all for splitting these weeks apart.

and is related to the two 1260 time periods given in Rev.12 about the very end of this world.

Or they're their own occurrence.

Maybe you haven't heard some of the more extreme Preterist views that treat Christ's appearing to His disciples after His Resurrection as the second coming, because they treat Christ's return only in a spiritual coming sense. I debated with a military chaplain on this who should have known better.

I understand the spiritualistic aspect of it but any preterist I've talked to or heard arguments from, has never held that view. I guess now I know of an additional view.

Matthew 24 includes the signs of Christ's return, which obviously has not happenned yet today. Our Lord Jesus was giving the seven signs of the Book of Revelation in that Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. I understand how Matt.24 is applied to 69 A.D., but some of the signs given there must be looked over to believe it's all past history, particularly the sign given there of Christ's return and our gathering to Him.

Read the context. That's your #1 clue. They were walking among the temple and Jesus tells them it'll be destroyed. They ask when. He then goes into Matthew 24.
Do you suppose he completely blew off their question and instead went into end-times prophecy? OR do you suppose he's actually telling them about "the temple" they asked about??
Additionally verse 34 gives us a concrete timeframe. These words were spoken about 30AD, the Jews understood a generation to be 40 years... Do you suppose all this timing falls into line on coincidence?


Matthew 24 is largely symbolic. The stars fell from the sky, the sun and moon changing, all these things are spoken of in the OT. Do you believe the stars in the sky literally fell multiple times? Or, is it, as we see in the OT, symbolic language speaking of a fall of a city/kingdom/ruler?

And yes, it is required to fulfill the prophecy of Revelation and Christ's return.

Rev.11 involves a rebuilt temple on the 2nd woe - 6th trumpet period.

I'm assuming this is your support for the temple? Do you not suppose (read the context) this is a figurative measurement of the body of Christ? It seems like it to me:
Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles.

 

[veteran]

Not if it ended on the week of his crucifixion.
I don't think the unity of this passage (they are described in blocks) is something to be taken lightly and I think it was just that: blocks. I see absolutely no scriptural support at all for splitting these weeks apart.

The Dan.9:24-27 Scripture doesn't just stand by itself either, which is how some "lightly" treat it, trying to close it off by itself and not including the rest of prophecy given to Daniel it involves, like the events of Dan.11.

Or they're their own occurrence.

Those1260 day time periods in Rev.12 is not the only area of Scripture that timing is mentioned. It's a direct link to prophecy in the Book of Daniel and in Rev.11 and Rev.13.

I understand the spiritualistic aspect of it but any preterist I've talked to or heard arguments from, has never held that view. I guess now I know of an additional view.

I was very surprised myself to hear such a view. But I now see how it fits today's globalist movement towards a one world government with those who think 'now' is Christ's Kingdom on earth.

Read the context. That's your #1 clue. They were walking among the temple and Jesus tells them it'll be destroyed. They ask when. He then goes into Matthew 24.

Do you suppose he completely blew off their question and instead went into end-times prophecy? OR do you suppose he's actually telling them about "the temple" they asked about??
Additionally verse 34 gives us a concrete timeframe. These words were spoken about 30AD, the Jews understood a generation to be 40 years... Do you suppose all this timing falls into line on coincidence?

I'm not going to waste your time or mine going through our Lord's Olivet Discourse line upon line, since you're determined to apply it all to past history per men's traditions. You will never make all those signs fit past history, especially since the very last sign He gave there is about His second coming which is still future today, unless you believe like those deceived extreme Preterists do. The generation Christ was speaking about is the generation alive at His second coming, for that's part of the last sign He gave involving the parable of the fig tree.

Matthew 24 is largely symbolic. The stars fell from the sky, the sun and moon changing, all these things are spoken of in the OT. Do you believe the stars in the sky literally fell multiple times? Or, is it, as we see in the OT, symbolic language speaking of a fall of a city/kingdom/ruler?

Biblical symbolism always points to something literal. Otherwise The Bible would not be literal Truth as It is. The test is for us to discover what God is pointing to with those symbols. We won't get that listening to anything or anyone but to God Himself in His Word.

I'm assuming this is your support for the temple? Do you not suppose (read the context) this is a figurative measurement of the body of Christ? It seems like it to me:

Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles.

No, I would never suppose that description of a temple in Rev.11:1-2 being about the body of Christ, since it's about the Gentiles TREADING (Greek pateo, to 'trample with the feet), the holy city for 42 months, a time period linked to the 42 months time of power the dragon is given over the saints per Rev.13. The reed likened to a 'rod' symbol is also very important to show judgment. The fact that is given within the context of God's two witnesses appearing in Jerusalem during that period to prophesy against the works of that time is also a major pointer to what and where that temple is.

Rev 11:2
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
(KJV)

If that were about Christ's Body of believers, it certainly shouldn't be about their treading the holy city for 42 months, nor given within the context of the 2nd woe period, 6th trumpet prior to Christ's coming, and a time when God sends His two witnesses there to Jerusalem to prophesy coming judgment.

 

[TexUs]

The Dan.9:24-27 Scripture doesn't just stand by itself either, which is how some "lightly" treat it, trying to close it off by itself and not including the rest of prophecy given to Daniel it involves, like the events of Dan.11.
Those1260 day time periods in Rev.12 is not the only area of Scripture that timing is mentioned. It's a direct link to prophecy in the Book of Daniel and in Rev.11 and Rev.13.

Can you post specific reasonings verses just generalizations?

I'm not going to waste your time or mine going through our Lord's Olivet Discourse line upon line, since you're determined to apply it all to past history per men's traditions. You will never make all those signs fit past history, especially since the very last sign He gave there is about His second coming which is still future today, unless you believe like those deceived extreme Preterists do.

You've mated "second" and "coming" together. Don't do that- it's not Biblical.
Once you realize Christ has appeared on earth in the OT (patriarchs and Moses), as well as when he was born of Mary on earth, you can see a multitude of appearances, in fact the time here in his bodily form wasn't his first! So the whole notion of "He'll just come one more time, a second time" is not Biblical ANYWHERE. The Bible never uses the word "second", strike it from your end times vocabulary.

I believe Christ returned in 70AD. However, I am not an extreme Preterist. Nor do I try to force a manmade non-Biblical notion that he'll only return ONCE more. 70AD fulfilled his destruction of the age (the Jewish age). THE coming for all of mankind is yet to be.

The generation Christ was speaking about is the generation alive at His second coming

And yet, the text doesn't support that. It says THIS generation. He was talking to his disciples. THIS generation. THIS generation shall not pass.

No, I would never suppose that description of a temple in Rev.11:1-2 being about the body of Christ

So, if this was speaking of an actual temple and measurement process, what do you suppose "measuring the believers" entails? Are they taking their measurements for robes, perhaps? Or is this point of taking a measurement of the temple of Christ?
Lest you forget, Christ called the Church in Philadelphia in Revelation 3 one of the columns on the temple. Clearly here, Christ is considering the temple symbolic for his body of believers, why would the same not be true later on in the letter?

, since it's about the Gentiles TREADING (Greek pateo, to 'trample with the feet), the holy city for 42 months, a time period linked to the 42 months time of power the dragon is given over the saints per Rev.13.

Who is doing the linking? The Bible, or you?
You are. There's nothing that supports liking these together, and there's also nothing supporting that these two separate months of time would be the same.

But that's largely just me playing Devil's advocate. I don't believe Revelation 11 to be past, and I personally can't eliminate the POSSIBILITY of Rev 11 and Rev 13 being the same period of time, I just take it with a grain of salt because as I've stated: nothing supports joining these two.

The reed likened to a 'rod' symbol is also very important to show judgment. The fact that is given within the context of God's two witnesses appearing in Jerusalem during that period to prophesy against the works of that time is also a major pointer to what and where that temple is.

Where's "appearing in Jerusalem" supported?
Rev 11 starts with John measuring the temple, then seeing the 42 months, "and then my two witnesses"... You don't suppose these two witnesses are for the WORLD, do you?

If that were about Christ's Body of believers, it certainly shouldn't be about their treading the holy city for 42 months

I'm not exactly sure what I believe on this, I recognize Revelation as highly symbolic. Do I really think a bird will cry out? Maybe, or maybe it's symbolic. I find irony in people that take the Bible symbolic, as much of it is, but then hit Revelation and immediately take a literal stance on everything.
Perhaps this is a reference to persecution.

 

[242006]

I have a question for bud02 and those of you who have the similar belief that Satan is, de facto, on earth now and not in heaven. Please explain Jude 1:6?? How did the fallen angels get into everlasting chains?

First of all, whether or not Satan is currently walking the earth or is in heaven is immaterial to the topic issue 'Satan's Fall'. When one starts reading the Book of Genesis, one can see that Satan was already 'fallen' at that point in time. Either God created Satan evil or he was created good and turned evil of his own free will. If one correctly determines the latter to be the case, then the next question to answer is 'when did Satan fall?'

So, it appears to me that the OP is not even focused upon the topic title. The issue of Satan's fall is mutually exclusive of the issue of Satan's current location.

Nonetheless, it appears that those of bud02's thinking will use the fact that Satan is proved to have walked the earth [Job 1:7], etc., plus the fact that there is no direct scripture identifying Satan's removal to heaven, as the bases for a claiming that Satan is still here, de facto. Accordingly, with that conclusion in their minds, Rev. 12:7 has to be a past event. Yet, on the other hand, those of bud02's persuasion will also argue that the fallen angels are currently in everlasting chains. The hole in their logic is enormous.

When one realizes that the Bible [those books officially canonized therein] is silent as to how the fallen angels were removed and placed in chains, then one should be able to reach the conclusion that Satan was also removed, though not directly addressed in scripture..

 

[veteran]

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Can you post specific reasonings verses just generalizations?

The time, times, and an half of Dan.12:6 is equal to 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years. That is about a time period of power given Christ's enemies over His saints, which is the same subject of the 42 months in Rev.13:5 about the dragon. In Rev.13:1-2 Christ gave comparison of that beast kingdom with the beast kingdom examples in Daniel. In Matt.24, Christ quoted prophecy from the Book of Daniel involving one of the seven signs of Revelation He was giving there.

You've mated "second" and "coming" together. Don't do that- it's not Biblical.

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

That's about Christ's SECOND COMING, which is still future to us. Your idea that a phrase like 'second coming' is not Biblical is what's clearly wrong. You're not going to tell me next that Christ isn't going to return again to this earth are you?

Once you realize Christ has appeared on earth in the OT (patriarchs and Moses), as well as when he was born of Mary on earth, you can see a multitude of appearances, in fact the time here in his bodily form wasn't his first! So the whole notion of "He'll just come one more time, a second time" is not Biblical ANYWHERE. The Bible never uses the word "second", strike it from your end times vocabulary.

That's really straining at a gnat. Although I do agree Christ made appearances to OT Patriarchs like Abraham, that doesn't justify your conclusion against the Hebrew 9:28 Scripture, nor the many Scripture prophecies of His singular return. You should be careful, because you'll have new believers wrongly thinking our Lord Jesus is coming and going back and forth in Person between Heaven and earth right now.

I believe Christ returned in 70AD. However, I am not an extreme Preterist. Nor do I try to force a manmade non-Biblical notion that he'll only return ONCE more. 70AD fulfilled his destruction of the age (the Jewish age). THE coming for all of mankind is yet to be.

So you ARE on the Full Preterist school boat, which I know that's not the extreme Preterist position I was talking about before, but it is pretty much in the same ballpark.

Christ's return to this earth to the Mount of Olives per Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 is NOT some man-made doctrine. However, the idea that He already returned back in 70 A.D. indeed IS a man-made idea, and is not Scriptural.

And yet, the text doesn't support that. It says THIS generation. He was talking to his disciples. THIS generation. THIS generation shall not pass.

No, the text does not infer the generation of the Apostles, because... Christ gave the condition of, "...till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt.24:34). Christ was giving seven signs of the end of this world, and those signs are covered in the OT prophets and in Revlelation in detail. The last sign is about the GATHERING of His saints to Him, LITERALLY, as written in the Zechariah 14 prophecy. Not only that, there are many events to occur on earth with that which have never, ever taken place to this day, like the events of the River which Ezekiel was shown on earth in Ezekiel 47.

One must deny much of The Bible to believe the false doctrine of men you're on.

 

[veteran]

I have a question for bud02 and those of you who have the similar belief that Satan is, de facto, on earth now and not in heaven. Please explain Jude 1:6?? How did the fallen angels get into everlasting chains?

First of all, whether or not Satan is currently walking the earth or is in heaven is immaterial to the topic issue 'Satan's Fall'. When one starts reading the Book of Genesis, one can see that Satan was already 'fallen' at that point in time. Either God created Satan evil or he was created good and turned evil of his own free will. If one correctly determines the latter to be the case, then the next question to answer is 'when did Satan fall?'

So, it appears to me that the OP is not even focused upon the topic title. The issue of Satan's fall is mutually exclusive of the issue of Satan's current location.

Nonetheless, it appears that those of bud02's thinking will use the fact that Satan is proved to have walked the earth [Job 1:7], etc., plus the fact that there is no direct scripture identifying Satan's removal to heaven, as the bases for a claiming that Satan is still here, de facto. Accordingly, with that conclusion in their minds, Rev. 12:7 has to be a past event. Yet, on the other hand, those of bud02's persuasion will also argue that the fallen angels are currently in everlasting chains. The hole in their logic is enormous.

When one realizes that the Bible [those books officially canonized therein] is silent as to how the fallen angels were removed and placed in chains, then one should be able to reach the conclusion that Satan was also removed, though not directly addressed in scripture..

But there's obviously something deeper going on with those here on the Preterist doctrines, since that doctrine is a mask for the kingdom now ideas (Christ's final Kingdom on earth without Christ's de facto Presence on earth). If they believe Christ's return already happenned back in 70 A.D., then that's why they would support the idea of a globalist one world government that's forming over all nations today (which is actually the very beast kingdom of Revelation our Lord warned us about). So they're not going to understand about the dragon of Rev.12:7-9 being cast down to this earth in our near future to begin the great tribulation. It's even possible some of those Preterists here well know they're following the plan for a one world government, and think it's up to them to bring in Christ's Kingdom on earth without Him.

Consider their argument of what timing they place Rev.12:7-12 in. It has to be past history per their Preterist doctrines, because that's how Preterist deception works; i.e., a designed lie by the workers of iniquity to trick believers into thinking all has been fulfilled already, and that today's world is Salvation already having come!! Do you think they'd want to understand all the Bible prophecy about earth changes that will occur with Christ's second coming in our near future? No, for they've even been taught to throw away the idea of our literal gathering to Christ at His future return! Nothing is future to them, they live for today, loving this world instead of the world to come when Christ returns. Today since 70 A.D. is THEIR world to come already. What a grand deceptive lie Preterism is.

 

[TexUs]

The time, times, and an half of Dan.12:6 is equal to 1260 days, or 42 months, or 3 and 1/2 years. That is about a time period of power given Christ's enemies over His saints, which is the same subject of the 42 months in Rev.13:5 about the dragon. In Rev.13:1-2 Christ gave comparison of that beast kingdom with the beast kingdom examples in Daniel. In Matt.24, Christ quoted prophecy from the Book of Daniel involving one of the seven signs of Revelation He was giving there.

You're linking these together based on "that is about"?
So to be clear, the Bible is not the one linking these ideas?

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

Nope, not going to tell you that because I don't believe it. You obviously aren't reading anything I've been posting as I've mentioned it a couple times.


Who says this is referring to future TO US TODAY? No doubt it was to those at the time this letter was written to. Does the author of Hebrews?
Hebrews 1:2, "these last days". Do you believe we are living in the same last days as the author's audience?
Hebrews 8:13, again, a seeming feeling of the end of days is when they were living.
Hebrews 9:26, just a couple of verses prior, puts Christ's existence on earth DURING the "end of the age".
The culmination, I won't argue with you, was future to the audience of the letter, but does this hold true for us today?


The veil was torn, yes? You don't suppose they just hung another one up in the temple after it was torn? Think about it.
Thus why Christ had returned in 70AD, to destroy the temple of old for to establish the temple of new. Establishing his church as it exists today.

So you ARE on the Full Preterist school boat, which I know that's not the extreme Preterist position I was talking about before, but it is pretty much in the same ballpark.

Let the term Preterist define itself, I am not.

However, the idea that He already returned back in 70 A.D. indeed IS a man-made idea, and is not Scriptural.

Matthew 10:23, "Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." He spoke this to his disciples. Do you suppose there are 2,000 year old disciples still going through Israel?
Matthew 24:34, "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Can't be anymore clear than this. Was spoken to his disciples, the Jews understood a generation to be 40 years.
Luke 9:27, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Once more, are there 2,000 year old disciples?


Additionally, how do you think the audience of that age understood, "quickly", and "soon"? These were written as encouragement. Do you suppose they understood these as actually "quickly" and "soon", or do you suppose they understood it as it's 2,000+ years removed?

No, the text does not infer the generation of the Apostles, because... Christ gave the condition of, "...till all these things be fulfilled." (Matt.24:34).

What are "these things"? The destruction of the temple. Read the context. That's happened.
To hold Matthew 24 as future is to completely ignore the context of the passage.

The last sign is about the GATHERING of His saints to Him, LITERALLY, as written in the Zechariah 14 prophecy.

Do you not feel to be a part of Christ's body? Has Christ not gathered you for himself?






Your problem with Zechariah 14... Is it doesn't say when it is. It doesn't say how Christ gets to the Mount of Olives, you'd like to read in "He comes down from heaven", but that's simply not there.
You'd also like to assume the saints are with him (after the "rapture", I'd presume?), yet again, this is not there.
Once more, apocalyptic prophecy is always highly symbolic (do you *really* believe a bird will cry out? Do you believe stars literally fell from the sky MULTIPLE times? Do you believe the Mount of Olives will actually split?). Keep that in mind as well, but reading the overall flow of Zechariah, what's it met by? Persecution and destruction of the Jews. This was fulfilled by 70AD!!! Read your history books! Matthew 24 was the fulfillment of this.


RE: Ezekiel 47, you don't believe streams of life-giving water coming from the new temple (the body of Christ) describe Christ's Church?

 

[242006]

But there's obviously something deeper going on with those here on the Preterist doctrines, since that doctrine is a mask for the kingdom now ideas (Christ's final Kingdom on earth without Christ's de facto Presence on earth). If they believe Christ's return already happenned back in 70 A.D., then that's why they would support the idea of a globalist one world government that's forming over all nations today (which is actually the very beast kingdom of Revelation our Lord warned us about). So they're not going to understand about the dragon of Rev.12:7-9 being cast down to this earth in our near future to begin the great tribulation. It's even possible some of those Preterists here well know they're following the plan for a one world government, and think it's up to them to bring in Christ's Kingdom on earth without Him.

Consider their argument of what timing they place Rev.12:7-12 in. It has to be past history per their Preterist doctrines, because that's how Preterist deception works; i.e., a designed lie by the workers of iniquity to trick believers into thinking all has been fulfilled already, and that today's world is Salvation already having come!! Do you think they'd want to understand all the Bible prophecy about earth changes that will occur with Christ's second coming in our near future? No, for they've even been taught to throw away the idea of our literal gathering to Christ at His future return! Nothing is future to them, they live for today, loving this world instead of the world to come when Christ returns. Today since 70 A.D. is THEIR world to come already. What a grand deceptive lie Preterism is.

In fairness to bud02, he claimed to be a 'Historicist' and not a 'Preterist'. In the '70 weeks' topic, he did not attempt to correlate Dan. 9:24-27 to 70 A.D. in any manner. Though bud02 is misguided in understanding on most topics, I am not about to attach Preterist beliefs to him. To the extent that his beliefs concur with Preterism, I am not quite sure.