1 cor 10: 9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted [Christ], and were destroyed of serpents. Remember paul also wrote that rock that followed them [Israel] in the wilderness was Christ.. vs 4 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 2 cor 8 9 9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he [Jesus christ] was rich, yet for your sakes he [Jesus christ] became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. Simply stating He was Jesus christ Rich before He was Jesus christ poor via the incarnation..in both Instances He is the Man Jesus christ.. phil 2: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: He was not in the Form of God in His Deity, for in His Deity He was very God [ Not a Form], but in His Pre existening ManHood as Mediator, He was in the Form of God.. col 1: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 17And he [Jesus christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist. see eph 3 9 also.. Jesus christ is not the Firstborn of all creatures as Deity, for in that regard He was never born or Begotten, so this is speaking of His Mediatorial Manhood..in this regard He is before all things, which makes sense, since all things would be created through his medium as Mediator with God and Man.. Heb 1: 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Deity wasnt appointed Heir of All things, So this is speaking of His Mediatorial Manhood by which also He made the Worlds..So we know vs 2 here is regarding precreation..He was appointed heir of the World before creation..so He existed then.. 1 jn 4: 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Notice what John is saying here..confessing , agreeing that the Man Jesus christ is come in the flesh..you see, the name Jesus christ emphasizes His Manhood, and if he is being emhasized as coming in the Flesh, then He had to previously exist as Jesus christ before, and in order to come as the same person.. And John solemnly warns, those rejecting this Truth is Not of God, and this is the Spirit of AntiChrist..and I believe John.Amen ! Jesus christ is called the beginning of the creation of God rev 3: 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; This must refer to His Manhood, and not His Deity..this refers to Him being brought forth in eternity past as the head of the election of grace, his body, the church..which is again stated here: col 1: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. These are Just a few of many other scripture testimony of this sacred being, and His Pre Existence.. Warning, only Gods True elect will begin to accept this Truth, but His enemies will deny it and reject it at all accounts..__________________
Scriptures affirming The Man Jesus christ Pre Existence
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1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Yes, Jesus was the Saviour of the World before men sinned in adam, Gods wisdom and prudence had Jesus already prepared.. eph 1: 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Do you know what it means to be wise and prudent ?
Answer the question..what does being wise and prudent mean do you know ?Benoni;71653 said:Please go deeper/
Prudent:OT:995iyn (bene); a primitive root; to separate mentally (or distinguish), i.e.(generally) understand:KJV - attend, consider, be cunning, diligently, direct, discern, eloquent, feel, inform, instruct, have intelligence, know, look well to, mark, perceive, be prudent, regard, (can) skill (-full), teach, think, (cause, make to, get, give, have) understand (-ing), view, (deal) wise (-ly, man). NT:4908sunetos (soon-et'-os); from NT:4920; mentally put (or putting) together, i.e. sagacious: Wise: OT:2450chakam (khaw-kawm'); from OT:2449; wise, (i.e. intelligent, skilful or artful): NT:4680sophos (sof-os'); akin to saphes (clear); wise (in a most general application):KJV - wise. Compare NT:5429.
Wisdom and prudence also means forsight..being prepared for evil..i.e prov 22: A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. If a man is prudent and forsseth the evil and makes preparation, how much more the God of man, His prudence and wisdom in foreseeing the evil of man and being prepared ?
And did not Jesus say that before Abraham..I AM?...John 8:56-58savedbygrace57;71600]1 cor 10: [B]9[/B]Neither let us[B] tempt Christ[/B] said:
bigdummy;71837]And did not Jesus say that before Abraham..I AM?...John 8:56-58[/QUOTE] Yes..and John the baptist said: Jn 1: [B]30[/B]This is he of whom I said said:
phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:6Who, being in the form of God [pre incarnation], thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Now this was His thinking in the past preincarnation, as a Man, Being in the Form of God [manifested form], now this would make no sense if it was His Deity being spoken of here.. Notice, the Mind that was in Christ Jesus, for this is His Anointed Manhood name being referred to here in pre incarnation as Mediator..1 tim 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;As Mediator He was the Man Christ Jesus being in the form of God..__________________
also John 1:1, well 1-18 is a great passage proving the preexistence of Jesus...also the other "I Am" sayings of Jesus throughout John...blessings,ken
In the OT Theophanies, when the Angel of the LORD spake as God, it was The PreIncarnate Jesus christ in Union with the very Divine Essence of the GodHead, so therefore in His PreIncarnate State, It was not robbery to think Himself equal with God..This perhaps explain what it meant to have been in the Form of God..When Jesus christ emptied Himself, He divested Himself of His GodLike form or Appearance..i.e Judges 13:6Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:The word terrible here is the hebrew word:yare' which means:1) to fear, revere, be afraida) (Qal)1) to fear, be afraid2) to stand in awe of, be awed3) to fear, reverence, honour, respectB) (Niphal)1) to be fearful, be dreadful, be feared2) to cause astonishment and awe, be held in awe3) to inspire reverence or godly fear or awec) (Piel) to make afraid, terrifyThis was the Appearance of the PreInacrnated Christ, now this appearance He had post resurrection with John and produced the awe inspiring results here defind:rev 1:12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: back to judges 13:10And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.22And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.This was very true, because as Jesus said to philip jn 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Sampsons Mother and Father saw the Glorifed God Man, Jesus christ in Union with the Divine Essence, in His preincarnate Glory..remember he said in jn 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. This Glory was witnessed by Sampsons Parents..For they said, we Have seen God..__________________
there is also Joh 12:41 ESV Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him."this refers back to Isaiah 6 where Isaiah sees the glory of yaweh in the temple, thus this verse not only proves Jesus' preexistence, but His divinity as well...other Christophanies might arguably be blessings,ken
- (The term "Angel of the LORD" is first mentioned in Genesis 16:7 - The angel of the LORD found Hagar near a spring in the desert (New International Version).)
- A certain "Suffering servant", from the Book of Isaiah, is believed by many Christians to be Jesus. However, this may simply be a prophecy rather than an appearance.
- The vision of Isaiah (Is 6) may be regarded as a Christophany. It appears to have been seen as such by John the evangelist, who, following a quote from this chapter, adds 'Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him' (John 12:41).
- A Christophany also is believed to have occurred when Jacob wrestled with a man in Gen. 32:30. Jacob says he has "seen God face to face," but Hosea 12:4 mentions an angel. This can be reconciled, if it was the Angel of the LORD, as Christ said He "and the Father are one" (John 10:30), or if Christ was actually there.
- Another possible Christophany is in the Garden of Eden, where God walks with Adam and Eve. He also sacrifices animals and covers their nakedness with the skins in Genesis 3:21,[1] indicating a physical presence. Some typological commentators believe that Adam and Eve were shown the plan of salvation, then instructed in blood sacrifice as a proleptic memorial.
- One example is the "Man" who appears to Joshua, and identifies Himself as "the commander of the army of the LORD." (Joshua 5:13-15). The standard argument that this was in fact Christ is that He accepted Joshua's prostrate worship, whereas angels refuse such worship[2]; see Revelation 19:9-10. Additionally, He declared the ground to be holy; elsewhere in the Bible, only things or places set aside for God or claimed by Him are called holy; see Exodus 3:5. Note that Jewish commentators [3] reading the same text do not accept that this figure was Christ (or even Adonai).
- Another example of a Christophany is in Daniel 3:25, when the fourth man in the furnace is described as "The Son of God" (KJV translation).
- When Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, "What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?" He replied, "Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding" (Judges 13:17).
- A New Testament Christophany is Paul's vision of Christ on the road to Damascus, and the subsequent one Ananias has.
- Another New Testament example is the vision of St John the Divine, recounted in Rev 1:12-18." (wikipedia)
blessings,ken[quote name='epistemaniac;71900]there is also Joh 12:41 ESV Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him." this refers back to Isaiah 6 where Isaiah sees the glory of yaweh in the temple' date=' thus this verse not only proves Jesus' preexistence, but His divinity as well... blessings,ken[/QUOTE'] I agree..yes The Man Jesus christ was in Union with Yaweh, and is Yaweh..
savedbygrace57;71903]I agree..yes The Man Jesus christ was in Union with Yaweh said:I am glad you agree....
As it regards Christ Jesus emptying Himself as is described in 2 cor 8: 9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. It would be appropiate that He emptied himself of the nature and qualities which He later was recompensed with, when He was Highly Exalted by God. Now it was not the Divine Nature of Jesus christ that was Highly Exalted, but the human nature or manhood, so therefore, it must be the exalted human nature or manhood that He emptied himself of..for it would be inconsistent for paul to be writing, that the Divine Nature emptied itself, and in turn the human nature was Highly exalted as a reward for His abasment and suffering. Its a mystery why this scripture 2 cor 8 9 cannot be understood as supoporting the Lord Jesus christ as a Man Pre-exisitening in a heavenly rich state, wherein He was indeed rich in glory [jn 17 5], and so he seperated himself from that state, and became poor for our [his body the church] sake, He who was in the glorious form of God, became incarnate, a helpless baby in a manger, a son of a carpenter, for this cannot be said of His Divine nature, that He became poor..
good point... let me look into your interpretation a little more deeply... my overall point in that reply, however, is that not all of the verses/passages which you list as supporting Christ Jesus' preexistence have to do with his manhood....blessings,ken
Jn 6 :38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.I [Jesus christ] came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me. Now this would be a strange thing to say of Christ, if this meant His Deity, to say, I came not to do my own will ! So this must have been the Humanity of Jesus christ, being sent to do His Fathers will and not coming to do His Own..This same manner of speaking we find in ps 40:8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.This we know refers to the incarnation we learn from heb 10:5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.This Language is proper for Jesus christ manhood [His human Soul] and not His Deity..For He would not have had a body prepared for His Deity to die and become a sin offering, but His Soul..isa 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,__________________
Christ Sonship as the Son of God, applies to His inferior nature [ human nature] and not His Divine Nature as the Eternal Logos..in that regard He has no Father that begat Him..With this in mind, we can undesrstand scriptures like jn 5:19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.matt 24:36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.mk 13:32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son [inferior human nature], but the Father.heb 5:8Though he were a Son, yet learned [In his inferior nature, not as the Eternal Logos] he obedience by the things which he suffered;1 cor 15:28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.jn 14:28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.The Father is greater than I, this refers to Christ preincarnate exisitence in His manhood, as well as then presently as he spake as a Man..The enemies of God, particular in the matter of Christ Deity, have failed to realize when the scripture is speaking of christ inferior manhood nature, and His Divine Nature..And other enemies fail to understand that Jesus christ sustained an existence in both Natures, Manhood and Divinity both pre and post incarnation and creation..Jesus christ manhood was begotten of God before all worlds, intimated here heb 1:5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? This does not refer to His resurrection, though it is applied to it later, but to Him being the Firstborn of creation..
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