Searching for Understanding

[Isick]

I am new to these forums and joined looking for some understanding. Let me start by introducing myself a bit.... If you wish to skip this Background information you can skip down to where I mark the start of my question. I promise I will not be offended.

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My father was Jewish, my mother was Catholic and the two had experienced hardships associated with their religions so they opted to raise their children as simply good people. I was not Baptised nor did I have an official Briss, I never went to Church nor did I go to Temple, I was never Confirmed nor did I have a Bar Mitzvah. I was raised to simply be a good person free from religious affiliation.Growing up I often wrestled with the idea of God, angels, the after life, etc, but never came to a firm conclusion. The society I grew up was very liberal and so outwardly expressing your devotion to God was not the ordinary so I never really felt like I was missing anything. I had firm understanding of the different religions, but only from a historical basis, not from a doctrinal or ritual basis. I had concluded around the age of 16 or 17 that God existed (someone must have, there is too much going on to be meaningless), but that Religion was a man based idea. That is to say, I was confident God would judge me on my moral standing, not where I chose to sit Sunday mornings.I am now 19 years old and have met every type of person from the casual church goer to the most devoutly religious. My room mate (he also my teammate and close friend) at college is pretty religious so we would spend the long bus rides back from meets debating over the existence of God, what it means to be a good person, the afterlife, etc. That was probably my first exposure to the inner workings of Christianity - but also my first exposure to the inner workings of religion in general. This past semester had to take a Religion understandings class at the private college I attend. At the start of the semester I felt a little out of place because of my limited Religions background, but my teacher loved my outsider point of view so I did very well in the class. We learned about the major religions (African religions, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). Many of them had similarities, but I did note that where they differed they felt more strongly. It was the concept of Jesus that bothered me most as I was convinced he did not exist (and am still skeptical), but so many speak of him as being as real as George Washington that I felt I must have missed something.

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This past week I had to write a paper about the Two Natures of Jesus (which lead me to this forum) and ended up debating with myself again. Now I find myself turning to this community to answer this burning question for me.From what I gather, faith is given to man by God and can only be felt - like any other emotion. Rudolf Otto calls it the Mysterium Tremendum in his book "The Idea of the Holy" explaining that only those who have experienced it can understand it.I have no faith in the existence of Jesus Christ. You could tell me until you are blue in the face about all the great things he did and that he was God's only Begotten Son, born of the virgin Marry, he was one hundred percent man and one hundred percent divine, etc, but there is nothing that will make me have faith in him. A man born without eyes can believe that Colors exist (everyone says they do so who is he to say no), but without those eyes he can have no faith that they do. I am, like the man born without eyes, blind in my own right.How can God, who is all powerful and merciful, fault me for not having faith if he never gave it to me? Does he fault the blind man for not seeing, surely not! Is it not possible that I was born without faith for a reason? Perhaps it was God's will that I be born without the sensation of divine presence. If Jesus was God's only begotten Son it is my contention that I am God's only forgotten son, not out of choice, but out of necessity. Jesus did not ask to be the savior of all mankind and I did not ask to be born a religious nomad, but we both bear a cross uniquely ours.Tell me what you think, I anxiously await your response!- Isaac

 

[Christina]

Here's the thing as you have pointed out one must experience it before its real God doesn't give one faith.. God gives one free will to chose to have faith .. Humans seem to want to only chose to have faith based on their experiences. Example: you have faith the sun will rise tomorrow because you have experienced it... If you had never experienced it... I could tell you all day its going to come up tomorrow and they would just be Words.... Unless you chose to believe me and chose to have faith I was telling you the truth. So it is with Christ God says he is the only way to him.. You must trust God Words enough to believe what he says... Accept/confess that Christ died for your sins ask for forgiveness in his name for your sins believe this with your heart and you will become a new person the spirit in you awakes it is only then you can experience him... The fact is those are Gods conditions if you do not trust God enough to believe what he says ...it really makes no difference what you believe its not faith in God .. I have done some study of religions ..However there are really only three that matter if you believe in a One God they are Islam, Judaism and Christianity all three acept a one God all three accept Jesus ChristOnly Christianity accepts he is God in the flesh, Jews are still awaiting the messiah (1st coming) Islam says Christ will return but with the Imam claiming Islam is the true religion and of course we are awaiting his second return. God tells us that Jews are under a slumber a rementant to preserve the Law .. that they are one of two sticks (one stick being jew the other being Christian) at his return the two sticks (jew and Christian) will be joined into one stick under Christ ( interesting point here he says this in the Old testament long before Christ ) Now as for Islam it is says you must believe the scripture of the Bible Gods Word but then says the Jews changed it, but there is no evidence of that in fact with things like the dead sea scrolls ect. It changed very little.. most of minor chanes were by the early christains against Jewish beliefs rather than Jews against Muslims who didnt exist till 500 years after Christ, My point is rather all three religions see Christ exactly the same/ understand all God says about it or not Christ is the center point of all three religions. This is by design of God not coincedence. So the answer to your question is he doesnt judge you because you were born without faith we are all born without faith ..He will judge you because he gave you a free will and you chose not to have faith in him and trust what he told you

 

[Isick]

I see. So if I have faith in God and believe in Jesus, but have no faith in Jesus, then I should consider myself a Jew as they have faith in the One God, but not in Jesus. And as it seems, the way you described things, it matters not that I accept Jesus so long as I bothA) Have faith in the existence and power of Godand

Recognize and acknowledge the coming of Jesus when he comes "again"If God considers Jews to be obedient followers then perhaps God made me faithless to make me a Jew. I know you said that man choses his faith, but I have a hard time believing that because I have tried to change and I just can't.The problem I have is I do not foresee myself suddenly waking up one morning and having faith in Jesus. I am at the stage in my life where I am struggling to define what I am and I would probably consider myself a Christian were it not for this rather large flaw I have that I do not feel, or have faith that, Jesus was the savior. Perhaps this way he will judge me as a Jew (one who is "under a slumber a rementant to preserve the Law") and find me worthy of his grace as opposed to finding me unworthy for pretending to be something, a Christian, which I surely am not.

 

[Christina]

Not exactly what I said or was trying to say is ...if you have faith in God you must trust what he says ... He says Christ is the only way.. If you doubt thats true ..You doubt God .. So then it doesn't matter what you believe as you have essentially already declared you don't believe God Words think him a liar ... for saying Christ is the only way ...Jews will become Christians when the slumber is removed ...If you are using the slumber as an excuse then let me ask to you actively believe and practice the Law?? If not then you are not a remnant preserving the law ..Jesus never claimed to be the savior ... Gods Words declare him so .. I always find it interesting when people who know very little of Gods true Word declare these things How do you deny what you do not know ?? If I was going to say I didnt believe in something that could effect my very life/soul I would educate myself thoroughly about the subject before making a call one way or the other one class and a little reading isnt an in depth education I been studying for many many years and still learn everyday.. The trick is learning what God says not what men say.. he says And you are wrong about faith No one is born with faith A baby cries when they are hungry they do not just have faith someone will feed them ... Faith comes only after the parent feeds them over a period of time faith grows in the baby when he cries ..he will be fed. Faith is a learned thing ..As we grow older we temper or faith with our mind and feelings ... This is where our free will comes into play..And faith in a thing depends on our choices. Making a good choice on an important thing requiresknowledge of that thing..

 

[Christina]

Let me give you a little insight here to How God teaches us .. The Law or Old Testament is a picture of the Christ (savior to come) Jews understand this thats why they are waiting for him (messiah) The New testament of course recognizes that Jesus was the 1st coming of the Messiah ...The disagreement between Jew and Christian hinges on the fact. 1. was God saying there one coming of messiah or two2. Was Jesus this messiah ? If we want to learn the answer and understand that the Old testament is the New testament concealedAnd the New testament is the Old testament revealed... Then the proof of Jesus being the Messiah has to be concealed in the Old Testament learning How God teaches, in prophecy of the prophets, types and pictures, using language and symbols as teaching tools. We can go about discovering whether this is true.. Being a Christain requires we accept the Old Testament Law as truth therefore freeing us to accept that if the concealed truth of Jesus Christ as savior has been proved we can then accept and belive the New testament (revealed) as truth...Being a Jew requires believing the Old Testament is true, the Law but have not yet seen or been privey (because of the slumber ) to see the revealed fact of Jesus Christ as messiah first coming. So my point here is one must be educated enough either by reading and studying Gods Word or taught by a good teacher/Pastor before one can decide whether there is concealed proof of, Christ as Messiah, or take a leap of Faith, that God is telling one the truth when he says Christ is the Only wayI suspect you are saying its this leap of faith you can not take yet ..there fore before you can say you do not accept Christ or are a Jew one must first find the truth of what God says to us in the Law i.e old Testament does he conceal ..Jesus is Christ??

 

[Isick]

I have read neither the new nor the old testament so I cannot comment on whether I believe Jesus is concealed in the old testament as I have had no exposure to it.When I was growing up I always had faith that there was a God, I still do. I have complete Faith in the existence of a God, what I did not have, but am trying to develop, is a faith in Religion (like I said in my initial post), "...Religion was a man based idea". So I would agree that I have no faith in "God's Word" as I have no faith that God said it. I always believed the Bible - every Bible in every religion - was simply Man's way of trying to understand that which cannot be understood. The Qu'ran, the Talmud, the Bible (Old and New) are all just Man speculating about what God must be like from how he created the world.For Example: Man is on the top of the food chain so he must favor man over the beasts. This rationale turned into, "God created man in his own image".That is how I believe the biblical writings came to be, but, like I said before, I am trying to change.
If you are using the slumber as an excuse then let me ask to you actively believe and practice the Law?? If not then you are not a remnant preserving the law ..
I am creating no excuses and I do not claim to follow any religion. I am simply trying to understand why everyone else has faith and I do not. Nor am I doubting the existence of Jesus Christ. I simply was wondering what the Christian community thought about the idea of God creating a man who is pure of heart and soul, but did not grant him the ability to have faith.God has done crazier things; like the story of Job. You probably know the story better than I so how can you doubt the plausibility of my claims? If God is willing to lay so many powerful burdens on one of his followers who is to say he is unwilling to lay a smaller burden (the burden of being born without faith) on another?If I live my whole life according to the morals of the bible, perhaps not the literal wording, but according to the SPIRIT of those words, are my actions not more notable than another's knowing I did so solely under my own will without obligation to his teachings?Or do you believe that by not having faith I am destined to spend my days in purgatory?It was Karl Rahner, I believe, who wrote about the Anonymous Christian. The idea is that those who live a good life, whether they know it or not, are doing so because of the grace of God and so are justly entitled to their place in Heaven.If it is the Christian belief that I MUST accept Jesus as my savior to go to heaven - regardless of my actions - then I am left with my only alternative being to declare myself non Christian in the hopes that I will more accurately fit into the guidelines of another religion. Perhaps if I do this God will judge me more kindly.

 

[Christina]

You got it all wrong God Word has nothing to do with religion ... I agree all religion is of men for men God does not reward religions. God has no concern what religion you call yourself. God only care you belief on him believe his Words .. They are in his book .. There is only one Holy Book that is the Bible... Jews accept the first half (old Test). Muslims accept it, but pick and chose what parts they believe..Christianity believes it in its entirety The bible is not men's words ..trust me the more you know the more you are convinced of this ... even if you are not a Christian the facts of the scriptures alone are way beyond what any man ..especially thousands of years apart could ever write nor conceive of ..They are inspired by God alone.. And you are right on one thing God judges all of us by our heart not our religion .. If your heart is good and you have lived the upright life ...you will not be judged as harshly as one who has claimed to be a believer and preached a false doctrine and led others astray.. All the disagreements are about religious denominations and there traditions of men .. not the Word of God ... The problem with not knowing scripture /Gods Words is that's what gives one the faith to make the leap if you refuse to read/study it how can you gain faith in what you do not know and understand ???? So I dont know what you are looking for exactly ... Any belief requires faith ... faith can not come without understanding ....understanding can not come without knowledge ...knowledge can not come with ... study/work ... If you want faith you have to start by studying/working for it ... If you dont want faith you can say well I wasnt born with it.. but neither was anyone else... So no cigar... If you want to stay as you are thats fine,your choice, .. then I ask why are you here is it deep down you are looking for something have some kind of hunger you cant put your finger on? .. thats God calling... The only question is will you answer If you are looking for me or most others here to bombard you with things of religion like Christ loves you, he died for you ect. ect. you arent going to get it here ..We are a bible study site ..studing the Bible, learning Gods Words, teaches you all these things . Beating one over the head with these things in my opinion drives people away from God, without understanding what these things mean why God says them, and having gained the faith God never lies, allows one to believe these things. Trying to convert one to a certain religion is not the same as trying to learn/teach one Gods truth ..Contrary to popular belief Christanity is not as much a religion ... as a way of life .. Its called a religion because it has a set of rules, to live by, But so does Buddism and it has no god.. Religion is a realitive term

 

[Isick]

I suppose I have always just been skeptical as to whether or not the words of the Bible are God's true words. The best analogy I have for my view is that the Bible is like asking someone to vote for you. They can come back and say that they voted "this way", but when it comes down to it they could have voted for whoever they wanted. Unless you are the one experiencing the event all you can do is have faith that they are telling you the truth. The "they" in this analogy is representative for the people who transcribed the Bible from the God. It seems to me that I must first have faith in the writers of the Bible that the words they wrote are, as they claim, the words of God before I can have faith in his teachings. This may play off a larger general distrust of people I have not met - I don't know and don't feel like psychoanalyzing myself at the moment.Regardless, I have taken your advice and ordered myself a copy of the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'Ran, and the Bhagavad Gita. I plan on reading them all cover to cover to try and gather a clear picture of every religion so as to come to the most accurate conclusion in my own mind.

 

[Jordan]

While you are at it, Please keep this question to your mind, just in case. If, I repeat If you come to the conclusion that all of them are of men and none of them are God's Words.Ask yourself, why are we even here to begin with IF God can never give us the Truth of what reality is truly about.Welcome Isick to CB.

 

[Christina]

(Isick;65844)
I suppose I have always just been skeptical as to whether or not the words of the Bible are God's true words. The best analogy I have for my view is that the Bible is like asking someone to vote for you. They can come back and say that they voted "this way", but when it comes down to it they could have voted for whoever they wanted. Unless you are the one experiencing the event all you can do is have faith that they are telling you the truth. The "they" in this analogy is representative for the people who transcribed the Bible from the God. It seems to me that I must first have faith in the writers of the Bible that the words they wrote are, as they claim, the words of God before I can have faith in his teachings. This may play off a larger general distrust of people I have not met - I don't know and don't feel like psychoanalyzing myself at the moment.Regardless, I have taken your advice and ordered myself a copy of the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'Ran, and the Bhagavad Gita. I plan on reading them all cover to cover to try and gather a clear picture of every religion so as to come to the most accurate conclusion in my own mind.
Well thats certainly ought to keep you busy I of course see little point to anything but the Bible, but I have read the others also I might suggest you read the Bible first to allow yourself a better comparison. We are here if you have any questions.

 

[shuntmama]

(Isick;65844)
I suppose I have always just been skeptical as to whether or not the words of the Bible are God's true words. The best analogy I have for my view is that the Bible is like asking someone to vote for you. They can come back and say that they voted "this way", but when it comes down to it they could have voted for whoever they wanted. Unless you are the one experiencing the event all you can do is have faith that they are telling you the truth. The "they" in this analogy is representative for the people who transcribed the Bible from the God. It seems to me that I must first have faith in the writers of the Bible that the words they wrote are, as they claim, the words of God before I can have faith in his teachings. This may play off a larger general distrust of people I have not met - I don't know and don't feel like psychoanalyzing myself at the moment.Regardless, I have taken your advice and ordered myself a copy of the Bible, the Torah, the Qu'Ran, and the Bhagavad Gita. I plan on reading them all cover to cover to try and gather a clear picture of every religion so as to come to the most accurate conclusion in my own mind.
ray4:John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. :amen: