1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Shadows and Realities

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by gadar perets, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Quick question:

    Can a shadow be fulfilled to the point that it is abolished before the reality comes?
     
  2. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    726
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Example?
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Could sacrificing a Passover lamb each year cease even though the true Passover Lamb, Yeshua, had not come yet?
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    726
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No.

    He HAD to come in order to fulfill the Law. Passover feasts, new moons, festivals, Sabbaths, etc - they were all shadows of Christ. He is the reality (Col. 2:16-17).
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Please explain how he is the reality of the Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah). In what way did he fulfill that feast?
     
  6. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    NO!
    Example - Our Lords Triumphal Entry, 10th of Nisan a Holy Convocation!
     
  7. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Sorry, but I don't understand your point. Also, how is the 10th of Nisan (Abib) a Holy Convocation?
     
  8. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I am sorry! I thought that you were aware of the Set-Apart Rehearsals, Every year on the 10th of Aviv, A Priest would go to Bethlehem and choose a Lamb, a choice Lamb, as the National Lamb for Passover. And when this Priest would enter the north Gate on His return, then the large company of Priest would begin to declare, Hosanna in the Highest blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, then all the people that came up to the Feast would come out from all around, and begin to wave Ceder Boughs and Palm Prons and begin to join with the Priests, and then they would lay their garments on the path up to the Temple Mount, for the Priest, and Lamb to walk on. But this year Yeshua had His Disciples waiting at the Gate, and before the Priest could return, Yeshua enters the Gate on the Colt, and His Disciples begin to declare Hosanna in the Highest Blessed is He who come in the name of the Lord. If you recall then the Priests demand that Yeshua tell His Disciples to shut up and stop saying this, and Yeshua say's to the Priests ! I WILL NOT, I WILL NOT, If the rocks have to Cry it out, then the rocks will cry it out.
    The rest of this rehearsal is complete, when the Lamb is at the Temple, it is staked there for all to inspect for blemishes, as was Yeshua was on the Temple mount, and all the different Priests Questioned, and prodded Him, to find fault in Him!
    These Holy Convocations = Set-Apart Rehearsals are the Living Oracles, Routine Forms of Worship, Shadows of things to come, And Yeshua fulfilled this one, to the day, and the hour and moment as it had been done for over a thousand years!
    You know that the Church has Palm Sunday, where did the Palms come from, the word declares that the laid garments on the colt, this was part of the Preparation to the Feast of Passover, and many, many many, peoples came up early to partake in this Convocation!
     
  9. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    NOT YET, Fall Feast!
     
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Thanks. I agree. I am aware of the rehearsals and that Yeshua fulfilled the events that took place on Abib 10 in ancient Israel. I just don't see that as being a "holy convocation" as declared by YHWH. In Exodus 12, it was just a family event. It morphed into a national event sometime later, but was still not declared a "holy convocation".
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    I agree. Yom Teruah is just one example of a shadow that was NOT fulfilled by Yeshua, but one which the "church" has erroneously abolished. BreadOfLife cited Colossians 2:16-17 which is the main passage erroneously used to abolish all unfulfilled Feast Days. I will address that in a future post.
     
  12. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    OK, know I understand where you are going, Yes Most of our breather n conclude that all has been fulfilled. You have a great understanding, for I have followed you Threads. I am not as Scriptural advanced as yourself.
     
  13. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dear Brother One must realize that the events that lead up to Passover, starting on Aviv 10, were as the Scripture states, Part of the Preparation leading up to Passover,and Unleavened Bread! Even In Exodus they were to obtain the Lamb on the 10 day and keep until the 14th, So the First Passover had these requirements, and maybe they did become a ritual that they Practiced, year after year, But as the Scripture states, Yeshua did enter that Gate on the 10 of Aviv, the true Passover Lamb of God, and did spend 4 days on the Temple Mount where He was put under the Micro-scope to find Fault, Blemish, any thing that would disqualify Him!
    What it Boils down to is, This is part of the Feast, which is a Holy Convocation. The First and the Last!
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    Of all the English translations that exist, the KJV comes closest to being correct.

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
    The mistake the KJV translators made was the addition of "is" which is not in the Greek text. Without "is", the text reads;

    Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ. ​

    What is the "body of Christ"? Yes, the called out believers (the church). This is in keeping with the context of Paul's teaching throughout the rest of this epistle to the Colossians (Colossians 1:18 & 24 and Colossians 2:19, all of which teach us that the body of Messiah is the church or all true believers).

    The "man" of verse 16 refers to the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone outside the Body of Christ to judge them concerning those matters; Let no man therefore judge you . . . but the body of Christ.

    If Messiah Yeshua is the "reality" of the things in verse 16 and he fulfilled them at the cross or some other time prior to Paul writing this epistle, then Paul would not have spoken of them in the present tense (are a shadow) (to come). He did not say they "were shadows of things that were to come". Also, of the 142 uses of "soma" in the NT, it was never translated "reality" or "substance" except in this verse in modern English Bibles whose Sunday keeping translators bought into the lie that the Feasts and Sabbaths were fulfilled. So their bias entered the translations.

    Also, if Yeshua is the reality of those things, then we should easily be able to state how he fulfilled them. Yet, no believer I know of can tell us how he fulfilled Yom Teruah or the Jubilee trumpet or Sukkot or the latter rain or the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is an ongoing shadow of the believers putting leaven out of our lives (an ongoing process), etc.
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    I guess I look at it more narrowly. The Feast starts on Abib 15 and ends on the 21st with those two days requiring commanded holy convocations (Leviticus 23:7-8). Abib 10 would then be outside of the boundaries of the Feast and has no such commanded holy convocation. Even the slaying of the lamb itself was outside the Feast (but not its eating). Everything from Abib 10-14 was an important part of the overall plan of salvation, but did not require a holy convocation.
     
  16. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Dear Brother BOL, may i ask you a question, and please bare with me. Have you ever looked into the Culture of the Hebrew People, during the time Of Jesus's Ministry. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, that The Sadducee's and the Pharisees had for at least 300 years before Our Savior's birth, had taken away and added to the word of God, insomuch they had developed a Religion of their own! you do not have to believe me, just read what Jesus does when He confronts these Religious leaders, how He rebukes them for their Traditions, as Jesus states, make the word of God to no effect. Our Savior was dealing with a False Religion, if it was true for the time frame, why would He say," you traverse the world to make a convert, and turn him into twice the son of hell as yourself! our Savior knew that these men were totally against God!
    I will put it this way when Jesus said_" You whited Tombs, you look good on the outside, But inwardly you are just Maggot filled rotting flesh, you do not enter in yourself, but you keep those that want to enter from entering.
    If and when you read the Gospel records, see if what I claim is true or not. Understanding the Culture makes a great difference in how we receive What Jesus said and did!
     
  17. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes Received:
    1,377
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well I can only hold to the understanding that I have, and that's OK! I will repeat that in Exodus the Lamb was Acquired on the 10th and that is part of the Convocation in my opinion! I believe that the Scripture is my evidence, and it is there for a reason!
    I think we follow a line of understanding that is very close! Be Blessed in Yeshua's Name
     
  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    726
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ahhhhh, yes - the old, "2000 years of Biblical scholars were wrong - but I'M right!" ploy.
    Good grief - you guys are STILL creeping out of the woodwork??

    As for Paul speaking in the present tense - it's because these things were STILL being observed as they are today. If he were writing today - I would expect him to write in the present tense as well.
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,977
    Likes Received:
    726
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Although I understand what you are saying - I don't believe He was dealing with a "False" religion - and here's why . . .

    As far as the LEADERS (Pharisees/Saducees) - they imposed their own traditions on the people that "nullified" God's Word because they placed their traditions OVER God's word. HOWEVER - Jesus told the crowds:
    Matt. 23:3
    So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.


    In other words - He was telling them to obey their leaders - but not to be hypocrites like them.
    Jesus never would have told the people to follow a "False" religion.
     
    Philip James and "ByGrace" like this.
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    219
    Faith:
    Other Faith
    Country:
    United States
    2,000 years? We are discussing the English translations which have risen in the last 400 years or so that were made by translators who were part of a church that had abolished the Feasts and Sabbaths. Their bias clearly entered their translations.

    Nice try. If the reality had truly come and the Feasts/Sabbaths were fulfilled before Paul wrote Colossians, he would have used the past tense just as he did in Acts 13:33 or as the writer of Hebrews (possibly Paul) in Hebrews 9:9.

    Why haven't you answered my question in post #5?
     
Loading...