Should Churches celebrate Veteran's Day?

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Wormwood

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I am an American, and I am grateful for my freedom to worship and pray without fear of attack or persecution. However, is it right for churches to take time out of worship to God (and maybe even devote an entire Sunday) to honoring veterans? The more I think about this question, the more it troubles me. I watch videos and hear sermons that honor fallen soldiers in a church service and often incorporate verses such as "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend." Is this an appropriate use of this verse and is the church service an appropriate time to focus on those who fought or died in wars...no matter how noble?

I think not. Although I am not a pacifist, I have trouble reconciling Jesus' non-violent approach to his enemies with times in a worship service to focus on "honoring" people who fought or died in national conflicts. Is this really a fitting time to turn our attention from the Lord to honor the American military? Here are a list of reasons why I feel this focus is inappropriate and often distasteful.

1. Often fallen American soldiers (not sure how this is viewed in other countries) are given more admiration and reverence than saints who died for the faith. When is the last time we took a service to remember martyrs who gave their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ? Thousands die every day for their faith, yet we hardly even take notice.

2. We may see no problem with OUR country using the verse "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend" because we are a "godly" nation. But isn't this just a bit presumptuous? Does a godly nation legalize the murder of over one million unborn children a year? Does a godly nation give approval for acts and behaviors God declares to be abominations? Does a godly nation create laws against prayer in the schools and refuse to teach children about their creator? Imagine if we found inscriptions of Roman centurions using the verse "greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend" with reference to Roman soldiers who died in a battle against a foreign army. Wouldn't we find that a misuse of the verse? I think anytime we take a verse about Christ's love for us in giving his sinless life on our behalf as a springboard to exalt war victims, it may be a bit too far. That verse is not about the advancement of any nation or empires ideals (no matter how noble they may seem) and to use it as such is disturbing.

3. I think Americans are in incredible danger of blending the national cause of this country with the Kingdom of God. The two are NOT the same. America has some very good ideals and some wonderful principles. However, it also has some pretty bad ideas and bad principles. America is just another nation in the world that could one day be discussed by future nations who are sifting through our archeological ruins. America is not a NT Israel and she is not the hope of the world. Jesus Christ is and we would do well to remember that. Why is it that America wants us to keep our religion out of her secular schools, yet we are so eager to inject her into our religion? Something seems a bit off here.

4. Should we really be singing the "Pledge of Allegiance" in our churches and flying an American flag next to a "Christian" flag? Is our worship to God a suitable time to "pledge allegiance to the flag...and to the republic for which it stands"? Personally, I am not comfortable "pledging allegiance" to Caesar, Bush, Obama, or any human institution. I'd rather be an American than any other nationality (personally). But my allegiance belongs to Jesus, not to any flag, republic, or human institution.

5. What about the other nations that attend your church? We have Japanese international students that sometimes attend where I worship. How do you think they feel when we take 10 minutes or an entire service to pledge our flag, remember our fallen warriors and celebrate our victories over America's enemies (including their grandparents). This is not to say that WWII was not justified...or any war for that matter. But do these issues really belong in our worship? What if you went to worship with Japanese Christians and they took a service to pay homage to their country and their fallen who died in their war against Americans? Would you feel welcome in such a place or that such a focus was warranted?

Again, I am glad I am an American and I love many of the things this country stands for. However, America is a country, not God. Fallen soldiers are not martyrs. America's wars are not spiritual crusades. We can appreciate or argue against political stances, wars, or appreciate those who serve in the military anytime we wish. I just don't think it should include Bible verses or occur when we come to gather to celebrate Jesus. What do you think?
 

rockytopva

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Undoubtedly the worst post I have ever read... And by a moderator at that.
 

Wormwood

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My personal views do not represent all the stances of this site. Can I not express personal views on debatable issues as a "moderator"?
 
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rockytopva

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It is the politician that starts wars. If there was such thing as a 'Politicians Day' and whether or not we should support it then that would be acceptable. There are many Veterans that are themselves victims to politicians gone awry. But then there are wars that needed to be fought, WWII for example. But then again, the politicians in Germany and Japan were responsible for that.
 
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Wormwood

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So should we remember the civilians killed by our atomic bombs? Either way, it's not my point. My point is, should we dedicate time in worship to pay homage to soldiers? I'm not discounting that WWII was just. I just don't know that a worship service is the time or place to focus on soldier or mingle their acts with the cross of Jesus.
 

lforrest

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We should be able to set aside an hour every week to glorify and worship the Lord alone. In the worship service I want to worship in fellowship in a time that should be spiritual. Veterans have labored and sacrificed getting little in return and many want recognition. So render unto Caesar and let the veterans have their recognition during the rest of the week.
 

Rach1370

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Huh....it's interesting to hear all that about America.
Here in Australia we have War Memorial days. They are held before the plaque with the names of the fallen (local) on it, and in town halls. We do sing some hymns...there is a definite 'Christian' feel to it....from a time when Christian themes were in schools, governments etc....but it is also secular in nature....as in, there is no talk about the war being a religious effort, or all the fallen being saved Christians.

But we do not take time in our Church services to do this....it's seen as a seperate thing. Wars are terrible, but at times necessary...and as Australian people, we recognise that...but as not all soldiers are Christian, we tend to recognise this outside of Church.
Of course should a 'brother' fall in war, then I expect we would pray for his family as a church...

As a general rule in Church we have 'missionary' days. It's when we'll talk about the missionaries we are supporting, pray for them, read correspondance from them, and tell our children what these people are doing, and why they need support and prayer.

As for whether its good an proper to have 'Veteran Days' in a Church context....I think that would almost need to be judged on a case by case basis. How much emphasis is placed on it in a service? I would think that if they indeed are placing America (a country) and war 'heros' in a place almost equal to Christ, that would be wrong.
But then, taking time to acknowledge that the very reason America, and other countries like it, has the freedom to sit and worship Jesus out in the open, simply because men of God stood up against false religions and fought for those beliefs...that could be a powerful message. I think we take so much for granted, but its something that has come through God's grace, and the vigilance of Godly men before us.
 

Dodo_David

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Wormwood said:
When is the last time we took a service to remember martyrs who gave their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ? Thousands die every day for their faith, yet we hardly even take notice.

In the PCA, the 1st Sunday of November is a time to pay tribute to Christian martyrs. My PCA congregation did just that on that Sunday.
 

day

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I agree in part. I always stay home on Mother's Day, Father's Day, Veterans Day, and Independence Day when they occur on Sundays. However, prayer for the living is never out of place. In my church (in a town next to a military base) we frequently pray for those in the military and it seem appropriate, in fact, it seems almost like it is our special responsibility because of our relationship with the base.

I think often worship planners just don't think when they include something in a worship service. I remember one pre-Christmas Sunday when one of the songs was "O Tannenbaum". Basically the congregation was singing praise to the evergreens decorating the church. Enough people complained that it never happened again..
 

Robertson

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Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
 

rockytopva

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I have two family patriarchs that fought in the Revolutionary War. One was a German Linkous and the other an English Pugh. They settled these mountains after the Revolutionary War and their descendents fought in many battles afterword. During WWII they nearly emptied our community, drafting the men for service. Our Pentecostal Holiness church still honors the veterans to this day. If I were to agree with the OP just in the slightest I believe I would hear the rattlings of a thousand graves throughout these mountains to my shame.
 

HammerStone

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You know, I've wrestled with this one, in no small part influenced by the Anabaptist history in my family.

God doubly blessed me with not having to go to war yet even at the age of 26 and yet being able to glimpse the horrors of war through my grandfather, a Marine in WWII. When he passed away a couple years ago, two events struck me.

One was when I opened a book I noticed by his chair, which was actually a piece of pacifist material. My grandfather had highlighted passages about the horrors and effects of war. His highlights recalled my own discussions with him about a good friend, a guy from New Jersey who was crushed in a horrific training accident. I will never forget my humble yet stoic grandfather crying about this event as he asked me why was a good man killed like that.

I think we should be very cautious about glorifying war.

With that said, I fast forward to the Marines who came to give my grandfather the proper burial. The honor that they displayed is something special, and it does reflect a very small part of imago Dei. I think you can construct a narrative of a passive, docile Jesus, but this must be reconciled with the whip-yielding Jesus who cleaned the temple and the New Testament story of Ananias and Sapphira.

I always stop short of absolute pacifism, because going too far left or right is cautioned against in the Bible.

With that said, I consider myself a patriot. I am thankful for my country, and thankful for those who serve. I think honoring those who gave their lives (recall what Jesus said about this) is something that can be done in a church service explicitly when God remains the focal point of the service. With that said, I don't totally agree with the OP. However, I do agree that we have a creeping national religion and we must be aware that patriots can replace Jesus.
 

tom55

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We are a religious nation. It is because of our military that we are a free nation to celebrate any religion we choose. Most members of our military are religious people therefor they have religious verses/services for our fallen soldiers . You are right when you say, "Americas wars are not spiritual crusades." I don't know anyone who would support that thought. You said America is not hope the hope of the word. I contend she is and if she isn't name a country that is? If you were a fallen soldier then your family could choose a ceremony of their or your choice (assuming you pre planned). Don't begrudge those who choose to have a religious ceremony. It does no harm to you, me or our country for whatever type of ceremony they choose.
 

Wormwood

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I am not saying we should not pray for our military. However, I think if we are truly to follow the commands of Scripture, we should spend even more time praying for the soldiers and citizens of the countries we are fighting rather than asking God to give us conquest. We are called to pray for our enemies. Certainly we should pray for all who are engaged in conflict. It is a reality of the sinful world we live in. Again, I am not a pacifist. I understand there are necessary wars (but most are not in this category).

I am also not saying that military people shouldn't be religious. Tom55, I am not saying that a fallen soldier should not have a Christian funeral or that a soldier cannot be a Christian. I am questioning whether or not we should take time in our worship to honor our military. I am questioning whether we should use verses about Christ's sacrifice to glorify the death of any nation's soldiers. I am questioning whether or not Christian should sing the "pledge of allegiance" to the republic of America in a worship service when we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom.

I wholeheartedly disagree tom55, and this highlights my point. America is NOT the hope of the world. The fact that so many Americans believe this is beyond troubling. America is never mentioned in the Bible and America will be a burning heap of ash when (and likely long before) Jesus comes to fully establish his Kingdom in the world once and for all. You are right that America is a "religious" nation. However, that religion is not Christian. The religion of America is secularism. Our country is one that values "freedom" for the sake of self-glorification, not for the sake of glorifying God. This is why the State defends the woman's right to murder an innocent unborn baby. It is why the State promotes materialism and greed. It is why the State is embracing homosexuality and every other sexual perversion. It is why I cannot speak the name of Jesus in the university where I teach as an adjunct without fear of losing my job. Yet we are call this country the hope of the world and are eager to lay down our lives and the lives of our children to advance its cause. We call it patriotism and the greatest form of honor. Yet most who give the same devotion to Jesus and His Kingdom are viewed as weird, fringe fanatics. We are in a very dangerous place in this country. We should wake up to the fact that while there may have been a time when the pursuits of this country were in many ways consistent with the Christian faith and worldview, they are so no longer.
 

tom55

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Wormwood....I agree with you we are called to pray for our enemies, we should pray for all who are engaged in conflict and there are necessary wars. The only prayer I have for Al-Quaeda (and anyone like them) is that they are stopped before they are able to kill or torture innocent people.

As far as you questioning whether a Christian should sing (or say) the pledge of allegiance; isn't that their choice? No one is (or should be) forcing them to. I don't believe it is a conflict in beliefs/commitment.

You agree that America is a religious nation but not a Christian nation. If we were to believe any poll/study that has ever been published we are clearly by far a Christian nation. I am not sure how you came up with the conclusion that we are a secular nation? I believe we are trending that way. Our politicians are leading the government down a secular or progressive path, the citizens are still mostly Christians or conservative leaning.

Once again I ask, what country is the hope of the world? What I mean by that is what country is (in general) better than America?
 

Wormwood

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tom55,

Thanks for your reply. I think it is a good thing to pray that the evil of Al-Quaeda is stopped. Hopefully it will be stopped by their repentance and coming to Christ. I think we should pray that they hear and receive the Gospel. Many of our own troops need the same prayer as a good portion of them are not believers.

I think it quite possibly could be a conflict of commitment which is precisely why I am asking the question. Christians represent a kingdom that is not of this world which is inhabited by every tribe, tongue, people and nation. So why would we encourage a pledge to a particular nation when our "Lord" is Jesus Christ who makes no national distinctions? Aren't we erecting walls that Christ has torn down in this case? Either way, people can say the pledge at a ball game or in the local school. Why do we need to take time to do it when we are supposed to be focused and fixed on God? So, both for the sake of the nature of the Kingdom of God and the timing of the pledge during worship....I think it should be reconsidered.

I think the evidence is overwhelming that America is not a Christian nation. Consider the following:

Further polling via "man on the street" interviews also bore grave news. Testing knowledge of the Ten Commandments versus popular culture knowledge, most people polled could remember the names of all four of the Beatles rock group, but many could not even remember one commandment. -Houston Chronicle
According to a 2007 study conducted by LifeWay Research and reported by USA Today, 70 percent of young adults drop out of Protestant churches, and 34 percent do not attend even sporadically after age 30.
In August 2009, the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life conducted a survey to "explore the complexity of faith in the modern world and the overlap between religions and other supernatural beliefs." Sixty-five percent showed evidence of adhering to contradictory religious beliefs. In addition to believing the message of the Bible, they believed in reincarnation, astrology, séances, ghosts, psychics, the power of the evil eye, and yoga as a religion.
The American Bible society reports: 26 percent of Americans never read the Bible and 10 percent read it less than once a year.
  • 79 percent of those surveyed believe they are knowledgeable about the Bible, but 54 percent were unable to identify the first five books of the Bible.
  • 46 percent believe the Bible, the Koran, and the Book of Mormon are different expressions of the same spiritual truths.
We use the label Christian very loosely anymore. How can we be Christian and forbid children to pray or teach them about Jesus in the "public" schools? How can we be Christian and give legal permission for women to kill the unborn child in their womb? How can we be Christian and sanction homosexual unions as equal to heterosexual ones? I could write a list as long as your arm. We are a secular, hedonistic, greedy culture that is far more eager to lay down our lives for our self-imagined "rights" than we are for the Gospel or exalting Jesus Christ.
 

tom55

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Wormwood,

For every quote you give suggesting we are not a Christian nation I could give you two showing we are. Just because the average person has a lack of knowledge of the bible does not lessen the fact we are a Christian nation. Just because the average citizens faith and knowledge about religion is not as broad as yours does not mean they are less Christian than you. Children can pray in school, they just can't be led in prayer by a school official. They can and do organize bible groups in school. Public schools can be and are used (rented) as churches. The Supreme Court has clarified this and you should educate yourself in this matter. I am not saying your are un-educated, just lacking facts on this point.
 

Wormwood

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tom55- I assure you I am not lacking facts. Yes, a school can be used as a church. However, our American "Christian" nation has made it VERY clear that the public education process can have nothing to do with Christ or the Bible. Now why would a "Christian" people not want Jesus taught to children in the public arena? Why would "Christians" defend the right of a person to kill an unborn baby? Most who call themselves "Christian" are no different than non-Christians with regards to divorce, crime rates, and a host of other statistics. This is about much more than Bible knowledge. It is about what it means to actually call Christ your Lord. How can someone claim Christ to be their Lord and believe in reincarnation, not be able to name one of the 10 commandments or see no problem with getting slammed at the bar on the weekends with coworkers? We aren't talking about people struggling with sin or slow learners. We are talking about how people classify the label "Christian" which has very little to do with what Jesus asked of those who would follow him. For a large portion of Americans, being a Christian means little more than believing in a Creator, that Jesus was a good man and that there should be some moral standards we live by. America is more deist & secular than they are what the Bible would define as "Christian."
 

tom55

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I believe most citizens don't want OTHER religions taught in our schools. They know if we teach the bible or Christianity in school then we would have to teach/incorporate other religions in the classroom. I believe if our public educational system is going to teach religion in school they should teach it in a history class. If you or anyone else wants their child to have a Christian or bible based education then YOUR option is to send them to a private Christian school. OR, novel idea, you could teach your child at home about your religion and let the public school teach your child about reading, writing and arithmetic. That way YOU don't have to worry about the school teaching YOUR child something about YOUR religion that YOU wouldn't want to be taught to them. Would you want someone from Fred Phelps church teaching in a public school their idea of the Christian religion to your child?

I believe it has been well documented that our founding fathers had no problem and even encouraged religion (Judea/Christian values) in our public schools however, sadly, we have gotten far away from that.

The FACTS are that most American's identify themselves as Christian. Just because they aren't as Christian as you would like them to be doesn't make them no less a Christian. Be a good Christian and save your soul. Do not judge everyone else based on your criteria of what it takes to be a true Christian. God will decide that when we stand in front of him on our last day.
 

Wormwood

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tom55-

I am not judging any individual's salvation so lets not pretend I am. I am evaluating the fruit of a population that claims to be Christ-followers. Jesus said we were to do this and Paul said we were to judge those "inside the church." So if someone "claims" to be a Christian then they should be held accountable if their actions are unbecoming of a Christian. I think the facts are very clear here even if you want to gloss over them. People can call themselves whatever they want, the issue is WHAT does it really mean to be a Christian? If we cannot answer this question without being accused of trying to take God's judgment seat, then why are you entering into any kind of debate? We must ask these questions...the Bible DEMANDS that we ask these questions.

Your position is that of secularism. We don't want to have Islam taught to our kids, so that means we cant teach Christianity. This is very logical for a secular system. It is not logical for a Christian system. I belong to a Christian church. We don't tell our Sunday school teachers NOT to teach about Jesus or someone will want us to teach about Mohammed as well in order to be fair. Do you know why we don't have this issue? Because we are CHRISTIANS. Teaching another religion would not even enter our minds because we are Christian. If this nation was a Christian nation, it would not worry about what other religions thought or their freedom. It would say, "We are a Christian nation, therefore we make the Bible a core teaching in our education. If you want to learn Islam, you should open a private school. Because our public position is Christian, we teach Christianity." Do you think Jesus would say, "Yes, don't teach children about me in order to be fair to other religions." No, he would say, "If you follow me, make disciples." Our nation is not Christian or it would follow Christ. Instead, it is secular and therefore it seeks to emphasize no religion and be partial to no belief system (which is a belief system ironically enough). This is why abortion, homosexuality, tv violence and sexuality are off the charts. Its why political leaders can be guilty of all kinds of immoral behaviors and still be seen as fit to do their political jobs.

It is a sad thing that parents have to take their children OUT of public school in order for them to learn about God. It is a sad thing that our public schools (that were originally started in this country in order to teach the Bible) now make evolution a core teaching for our children. I think you have been so indoctrinated with the notion that America = Christian that you and a whole slew of others cannot decipher where one ends and the other begins.