Sin and Atonement; each in two stages?

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Mike Waters

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The way I see the question of ‘sin’ and its 'atonement' is as follows:

Firstly, we all have an inherently sinful nature that needs to be atoned.

Secondly, we then all commit actual acts of sin once we reach our own unique age of discretion, and those acts of sin also need atonement.

Then I look to Christ’s sacrificial death as being the only available means of atonement in both instances.

In the first instance I believe that Christ’s sacrificial death atoned for inherent sin for every person ever to be born, (including retrospectively those born before Christ’s sacrificial death). And I believe that atonement for inherent sin to be independent of anything needed from ‘man’. On that basis all who die before reaching their age of discretion are fully atoned; having committed no actual acts of sin.

In the second instance, regarding actual acts of sin, I believe atonement to be wholly dependent on faith in whatever it is that God reveals and requires of a ‘man’.

For those of us who come under the sound or sight of the Gospel message of John 3:16, then the faith that is required of us is faith in that Gospel message. Whereas for those who might never come under such a sight or sound then they will be called to show faith in one or more of many different ways.

Hebrews 11 is packed with examples of different calls and responses to faith that were accounted for righteousness.
Whereas Romans 1:11-25 can be extrapolated to indicate that those who receive no other call than that of the message of creation “have excuse” if their response to that call is to worship the evident God of creation, rather than worshipping idols which might be fashioned out of created things.

I draw from this that it is still Christ’s sacrificial death that is the only way by which man can be saved, but actually being aware of such is not necessarily a prerequisite.

Adding all this together I believe that I have covered every worldwide eventuality regarding sin and its atonement.
It’s what I call “being able to see the bigger picture”.

Nevertheless, such as I think I see, is clouded by the "darkened glass" through which we all have to peer, and all that matters for each of us is the degree of unprejudiced sincerity with which we hold our various beliefs.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I draw from this that it is still Christ’s sacrificial death that is the only way by which man can be saved, but actually being aware of such is not necessarily a prerequisite.

So since Christ atoned for all sin, we don't have to accept Christ in order for it to be applied? That is Universalism.
 

Mike Waters

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So since Christ atoned for all sin, we don't have to accept Christ in order for it to be applied? That is Universalism.

My implication about not needing to be aware of Christ's atoning work was meant to apply to those who by virtue of "Geographical isolation, premature death, or mental incapacity, never get to see a Bible or hear the Gospel Message".
Does anyone think that such souls are damned as a consequence?

And BTW I think you'll find your view of a "Universalist's belief" is incorrect (Not that I am a Universalist .... my inclination is towards Annihilationism)
 
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justbyfaith

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One must receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in order to be saved from inherent sin as an element; as well as actual sins committed and their penalty.

I do believe that the scripture teaches that there will be given an opportunity at the GWT judgment for those who never heard the gospel while alive.

For those of us who have heard while alive, we have received our opportunity; and no further opportunity will be given.
 

marks

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The way I see the question of ‘sin’ and its 'atonement' is as follows:

Firstly, we all have an inherently sinful nature that needs to be atoned.

Secondly, we then all commit actual acts of sin once we reach our own unique age of discretion, and those acts of sin also need atonement.

Then I look to Christ’s sacrificial death as being the only available means of atonement in both instances.

In the first instance I believe that Christ’s sacrificial death atoned for inherent sin for every person ever to be born, (including retrospectively those born before Christ’s sacrificial death). And I believe that atonement for inherent sin to be independent of anything needed from ‘man’. On that basis all who die before reaching their age of discretion are fully atoned; having committed no actual acts of sin.

In the second instance, regarding actual acts of sin, I believe atonement to be wholly dependent on faith in whatever it is that God reveals and requires of a ‘man’.

For those of us who come under the sound or sight of the Gospel message of John 3:16, then the faith that is required of us is faith in that Gospel message. Whereas for those who might never come under such a sight or sound then they will be called to show faith in one or more of many different ways.

Hebrews 11 is packed with examples of different calls and responses to faith that were accounted for righteousness.
Whereas Romans 1:11-25 can be extrapolated to indicate that those who receive no other call than that of the message of creation “have excuse” if their response to that call is to worship the evident God of creation, rather than worshipping idols which might be fashioned out of created things.

I draw from this that it is still Christ’s sacrificial death that is the only way by which man can be saved, but actually being aware of such is not necessarily a prerequisite.

Adding all this together I believe that I have covered every worldwide eventuality regarding sin and its atonement.
It’s what I call “being able to see the bigger picture”.

Nevertheless, such as I think I see, is clouded by the "darkened glass" through which we all have to peer, and all that matters for each of us is the degree of unprejudiced sincerity with which we hold our various beliefs.
Hi Mike,

I know different people have different ideas on some words, can you tell me what you mean when you speak of sins being atoned?

Much love!
 

Mike Waters

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Hi Mike,

I know different people have different ideas on some words, can you tell me what you mean when you speak of sins being atoned?

Much love!
I may have to come back to this after deeper consideration, but my immediate response would be to say that atonement is the sacrifice that is efficacious in cancelling out 'sin'.
 

marks

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I may have to come back to this after deeper consideration, but my immediate response would be to say that atonement is the sacrifice that is efficacious in cancelling out 'sin'.
OK.

I look at atonement as the OT kaphar, to cover, and in the NT, that sins are propitiated, and sent away.

The lambs in the OT would provide a covering for sins, while the Lamb of God carried away the sin of the world.

Much love!
 

Mike Waters

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OK.

I look at atonement as the OT kaphar, to cover, and in the NT, that sins are propitiated, and sent away.

The lambs in the OT would provide a covering for sins, while the Lamb of God carried away the sin of the world.

Much love!
All as per the priesthood of Christ which runs right through Hebrews
 

marks

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All as per the priesthood of Christ which runs right through Hebrews
Amen!

I see this as a dead humanity propagated from Adam, dead in sin, condemned to destruction, and Will end in judgment. All are lost, and all will perish.

Except . . . Jesus has provided us an opportunity to perish in a way that doesn't destroy us, and instead transforms us into a new humanity, no longer of the earth and earthy, but now heavenly as is the Lord from Heaven.

If we join Him in death, then we can be separated from our condemned Adamic existance, to find a new life in Christ, as a newly created spirit child of God, who has never sinned and never will.

Just as Jesus was born of God into an human body, Incarnate, we also are as incarnate in the man of flesh, and by trusting God to make it so, we rule over this man of flesh to make him do our will, until this body is transformed into incorruptibility.

Much love!
 
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Enoch111

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Adding all this together I believe that I have covered every worldwide eventuality regarding sin and its atonement.
I believe you have not understood the atoning work of Christ according to what is revealed in the Bible. The inherent sin nature causes all humans to sin from a very early age. When sinners hear the Gospel, repent (turn away from sins and idols and turn to Christ), believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and receive Him as Lord and Christ, all their past sins are forgiven. And repentance is necessary for the forgiveness (or remission) of sins.

At the same time, because the sin nature is not eradicated, Christians can and do sin, and must deal with their present sins through confession and repentance, And the blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us from all our sins. See 1 John 1 & 2.

The goal of the Christian life is to walk in the Spirit and mortify the works of the flesh (the sin nature). But every believer must examine himself or herself daily and deal with their present sins (if any).
 

Enoch111

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Whatever John meant by that.
And that's what we should seek to determine. What John was saying in that verse is that the new nature of the believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot sin.

At the same time John made it clear that the old Adamic nature has not disappeared. Therefore he told Christians that if they say they have no sin they (1) deceive themselves and (2) make God a liar.

Every Christian can walk in the Spirit. But that does not mean that Christians will not sin. Therefore Paul says that they must examine themselves.
 

Mike Waters

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the blood of Christ keeps on cleansing us from all our sins. See 1 John 1 & 2.

But what about Hebrews 10:26 ?
"if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more (other) sacrifice for sins".
I incline towards the view that sins that we "keep on committing" are classified as "works of wood, hay and stubble" and are burned; leaving the doer to suffer loss, with he himself being "saved yet so as through fire" (provided that such a person does at least have some "works of faith" that constitute "works of gold, silver, and precious stones").
 
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justbyfaith

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And that's what we should seek to determine. What John was saying in that verse is that the new nature of the believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot sin.

At the same time John made it clear that the old Adamic nature has not disappeared. Therefore he told Christians that if they say they have no sin they (1) deceive themselves and (2) make God a liar.

Every Christian can walk in the Spirit. But that does not mean that Christians will not sin. Therefore Paul says that they must examine themselves.
In understanding 1 John 3:9, I believe that it should be interpreted by 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv).

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

If every Christian can walk in the Spirit, then every Christian can walk in the Spirit 24/7/365.

And that means that it is not necessarily inevitable that we will sin.

If we say that we "have no sin" we deceive ourselves and make God a liar.

This is not to say that if we say that we "do no sin", the same is also true of us.

For in 1 John 3:5-9 (and also if you compare 1 John 3:6 to 1 John 2:17), it becomes clear that the believer doesn't have to commit sin; and that, in fact, the general direction of the true believer is away from sin.
 

Mike Waters

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In understanding 1 John 3:9, I believe that it should be interpreted by 2 Corinthians 3:12 (kjv).

2Co 3:12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

If every Christian can walk in the Spirit, then every Christian can walk in the Spirit 24/7/365.

And that means that it is not necessarily inevitable that we will sin.

If we say that we "have no sin" we deceive ourselves and make God a liar.

This is not to say that if we say that we "do no sin", the same is also true of us.

For in 1 John 3:5-9 (and also if you compare 1 John 3:6 to 1 John 2:17), it becomes clear that the believer doesn't have to commit sin; and that, in fact, the general direction of the true believer is away from sin.

Thanks for that ....but. for the moment, I am wearied of bantering theology.
"Convert a person against his will. and he remains unconverted still"
So the bantering serves no good purpose.
Yes, it's a discussion forum, but every member wants to 'convert' to his own understanding, which leaves no one to be 'converted'
Trouble is that most of us have 'heard it all before'.
 
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justbyfaith

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Thanks for that ....but. for the moment, I am wearied of bantering theology.
"Convert a person against his will. and he remains unconverted still"
So the bantering serves no good purpose.
Yes, it's a discussion forum, but every member wants to 'convert' to his own understanding, which leaves no one to be 'converted'
Trouble is that most of us have 'heard it all before'.
Indeed...

2Ti 4:1, I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2, Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3, For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4, And they shall turn away their ears from the truth...
 

marks

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But what about Hebrews 10:26 ?
"if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more (other) sacrifice for sins".
I incline towards the view that sins that we "keep on committing" are classified as "works of wood, hay and stubble" and are burned; leaving the doer to suffer loss, with he himself being "saved yet so as through fire" (provided that such a person does at least have some "works of faith" that constitute "works of gold, silver, and precious stones").
You can't return to the temple and offer another goat, or lamb. As if Jesus' blood was no better than theirs!