Sin?

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Goodboy

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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!
 

aspen

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Good question. First, you might want to look at your definition of sin. Is sin a force? Or a lack of Good? I believe sin in relation to Good is like cold to heat - it is not a force or substance, it is a lack of Good. So like cold is dependent on heat, while heat is a force by itself; sin is dependent on Good, while Good is a force by itself.

So you can think of sin as a misuse of God's creation. God did not create sin, but He did give us freewill - some creations like Lucifer decided to use his freewill to misuse God's creation - and he taught us to do the same. We learned how to do it from our parents, as so it goes.....
 

Episkopos

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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!

God wanted to show His creation that it takes a proper character as well as gifting in order to stay righteous. So all God had to do was to continue to expose the devil to more and more glory until his humility was completely overthrown. We see the same thing today with ministers of religion.
 

Goodboy

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Aspen.. I understand what you mean.. My REAL QUESTION IS ''how can a 'lack of good' originate from a perfectly good jehova?
In my opinion of putting your answers together:
Heat and cold originated from jehova.
Therefore in the same way
Good and evil originated from jehova.

Espikopos.. So you agree with me that jehova created the sin/evil we suffer today?
What if jehova had an evil side to his good side?
Beacuase according to the bible everything originated from jehova..
 

aspen

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Aspen.. I understand what you mean.. My REAL QUESTION IS ''how can a 'lack of good' originate from a perfectly good jehova?
In my opinion of putting your answers together:
Heat and cold originated from jehova.
Therefore in the same way
Good and evil originated from jehova.

Espikopos.. So you agree with me that jehova created the sin/evil we suffer today?
What if jehova had an evil side to his good side?
Beacuase according to the bible everything originated from jehova..

God did create the option of misusing His creation. We were created with the ability to exalt ourselves over God in our own minds. We have the ability to act selfishly to our own detriment and demise. However, there is a big difference between creating something that cannot be misused by creatures with freewill and curious minds and creating sin/evil.

Unfortunately, a god that is evil is not worthy of praise, nor would he be interested in purging evil from us - why would he? We would be created good/evil in his image.

If sin is a force, God would be culpable for creating it, but it isn't. Sin is a misuse of creation or a lesser good.

God wanted to show His creation that it takes a proper character as well as gifting in order to stay righteous. So all God had to do was to continue to expose the devil to more and more glory until his humility was completely overthrown. We see the same thing today with ministers of religion.

Good is not dependent on evil. God cannot create sin to teach us what Good is. He is the definition of Good and Good stands by it's self as self-evident. Only sin relies on Good for it's definition.
 

elysian

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God created everything for his glory. He created the 'good' to show his kindness and mercy. But he also created, using Satan and fallen humanity, to 'create' evil so as to display his wrath and justice. Put simply, God does everything for his glory, to display his various attributes for us to adore.
 

Prentis

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If you say that 'jehova had an evil side to his good side' then you are judging what is right and wrong. But who are we to judge God? Do we see what he sees, and understand what he understands that we could say it's wrong? What if having the devil was the best way to teach men and to test men to see if they are upright, and to prepare them to rule and reign with Christ?

We must have faith and trust in the life of God. If we have difficulty doing this, we need a revelation of his heart, to see that he is love, and to the one that asks honestly and with faith, he will give it. :)
 

aspen

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God created everything for his glory. He created the 'good' to show his kindness and mercy. But he also created, using Satan and fallen humanity, to 'create' evil so as to display his wrath and justice. Put simply, God does everything for his glory, to display his various attributes for us to adore.

Here is an example of Good being dependent on evil - God's justice is demonstrated by inventing evil. This is incorrect! We can know God's justice without sin.
 

rockytopva

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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!

I have been meditating on a timeline on all of this...

1. Eternity - First we have eternity... Which we humans cannot understand.
2. Three groups of Angels led by three arch angels
--- Michael - Strong Angels
--- Gabriel - Wise Angels
--- Lucifer - Worshiping Angels
3. A rebellion in which Lucifer takes a third of the angels with him. - Revelation 12: 3, 4
4. A universe is created...
---The big bang - Gen 1:3
---The universe scatters - Gen 1:4
---I believe that billions of years passed until God called the light day and the darkness light.
---Five additional days of creation - In which we now have Adam.


It is of my beliefs that this universe was created in response to the fall of Lucifer. I believe that Lucifer and his angels grew accustomed to the Fathers light and energies and then began to hate it. When they fell I believe that they were stripped of their remaining light and energy in which they have substituted the true light and energy for the light called ego and arrogance.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. - Matt 19: 23,24

One of the reasons why so few people get the true Baptism of the Holy Ghost these days is because all that ego cannot make it through the eye of the needle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfOoN5Q6Jmc
 

NicholasMarks

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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!

According to my understanding, Heaven is a place not unlike planet Earth. It too had good and evil amongst its number. Then a man who was to become Almighty God stood up before these people and said I have looked at science and realise they have got it wrong. Follow righteousness and be saved. This led to an almighty war because evil, there, like here, wouldn't stop ruining their planet, whilst those who had a more caring attitude saw the merits of the man who had conquered the everlasting laws of nature. On this basis we can discover something quite amazing...That Almighty God was slain...in exactly the same way Jesus Christ was...at the hands of the evil, which...by virtue of God's eternal laws were quickly overcome by the righteous science of Almighty God which resurrected him and overpowered them.
 

Goodboy

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Jan 3, 2012
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Ok... I understand what you all said. What i don't get is this '' how can there be evil, if jehova is absolutely good?'' to me it means there shouldn't be any sin/evil for any reason whatsoever, since the origin(jehova) is perfectly good so there shouldn't be any aorta of evil anywhere, unless evil/sin is a part of his nature....
 

Prentis

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I think you might be looking at it too mathematically...

Sin begins in rebellion. God created everything perfectly... in glory. It was both good, as in in submission to him AND good in the sense that it was full of life and joy. But God gave the beings he created the choice to either remain submitted to him, or rebel. The enemy rebelled because he wanted to use good for himself.

When you see it from the point of view of relationship, it all makes sense. Sin is evil simply because it is in rebellion to God. God did not create rebellion... He IS the authority. But some of those under him CHOSE to rebel. Thus, they sinned.

Thus God is neither the author of sin nor sinful in anyway. He is simply loving, and desires his creation to serve him wilfully, thus giving free will.

I hope it makes more sense for you now! :) ... again, I think this has a lot to do with not seeing this as mathematics, but as relational. God is about relationships. Sin is rebellion in our relationship with God, and thus cuts us off.
 

aspen

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Focusing on yourself and nurturing your False Self (Old Man) rather than focusing on God is sin. It is a behavior we were never created to do - it is a clitch in the matrix :)

God did not create it. God did not create large muscle cramps either; they happen when our bodies are not being taken care of properly - often due to a lack of fluid.
 

JJsaint

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Jan 11, 2012
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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!

Is “Lucifer” Really Satan?
Let's examine the word “Lucifer” now.
Lucifer is mentioned in Isaiah:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O
Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which
didst weaken the nations! For thou
hast said in thine heart, I will ascend
into heaven, I will exalt my throne
above the stars of God: I will sit also
upon the mount of the congregation,
in the sides of the north: I wi!1 ascend
above the heights of the clouds; I will
be like the most High. Yet thou shalt
be brought down to hell, to the sides of
the pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15

This seems to be God talking to
Lucifer. In many cases, people call Satan,
this great archangel, by the name of
Lucifer. There are people who worship the
devil and call him by the name of Lucifer.
Amazingly enough, the only place you find
the name Lucifer in the Bible is in this
one passage you just read. Lucifer is a
Latin word replacing the Hebrew word
“heylel” which means “the morning star”
(in the sense of brightness). Lucifer is a
Latin word which means “bright” or “fire”
and it is equivalent to the Greek word
“phosphorus,” which means “light bearer.”
Some older people might remember that
the early matches, made with phosphorus,
were called “Lucifers.” You used to be able
to go into the store and buy a box of
“Lucifers.”
We have also a more sure word of
prophecy; whereunto ye do well that
ye take heed, as unto a light that
shineth in a dark place, until the day
dawn, and the day star arise in your
hearts:
2 Peter 1:19

The words “day star” come from the
Greek word “phosphoros” which means
“light-bearer” or “morning star.” It can
only refer to Jesus Christ, because, in
Revelation 22, Jesus says:
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify
unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of
David, and the bright and morning
star.
Revelation 22:16

The day star or the bright and morning
star in the New Testament refers only to
Jesus Christ. It is a title or a subtitle.
In Isaiah 14:12, if you'll look at the
margin in some Bibles, there is a number
by the word Lucifer and the margin reads
“day star.” So, Isaiah 14:12 should read:
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O day
star, son of the morning”!
Isaiah 14 — The True Story
You have to understand how God is
speaking to this “day star,” or “Lucifer,” in
order to understand what He means. This
whole thing is sarcasm. Let's go back to
verse four, where the Lord is speaking to
the prophet.
That thou shalt take up this proverb
(taunting speech) against the king of
Babylon, and say, How hath the
oppressor ceased! the golden city
ceased!
Isaiah 14:4
The king of Babylon is a man. He is not
a god or an archangel, he is a man. The
prophet was to use “taunting speech,” or
sarcasm, when speaking to this king of
Babylon.
The Lord hath broken the staff of the
wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
He who smote the people in wrath
with a continual stroke, he that ruled
the nations in anger, is persecuted,
and none hindereth. The whole earth
is at rest, and is quiet: they brake
forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees
rejoice at thee, and the cedars of
Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid
down, no feller is come up against us.
Isaiah 14:5-8
This is speaking of the destruction of
the empire of Babylon. The king of

Babylon is being told that the earth will
rejoice when he is destroyed.
Hell (the grave) from beneath is
moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming:
it stirreth up the dead for thee,
even all the chief ones of the earth; it
hath raised up from their thrones all
the kings of the nations. All they shall
speak and say unto thee, Art thou also
become weak as we? art thou become
like unto us?
Isaiah 14:9-10
The dead kings are asking this great
and mighty king of Babylon if he is going
to become a dead king like they are.
Thy pomp is brought down to the
grave, and the noise of thy viols: the
worm is spread under thee, and the
worms cover thee. How art thou fallen
from heaven, O Lucifer (day star), son
of the morning! how art thou cut
down to the ground, which didst
weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:11-12
What did the king of Babylon fall
from? He fell from world power. Heaven
does not always refer to the abode of God.
It sometimes refers to world power.
For thou hast said in thine heart, I
will ascend into heaven, I will exalt
my throne above the stars of God: I
will sit also upon the mount of the
congregation, in the sides of the
north: I will ascend above the heights
of the clouds; I will be like the most
High.
Isaiah 14:13-14
God is saying that this king of Babylon
wants to set himself up above God. This is
sarcasm or taunting. God is saying, in
essence, “you think you are the day star,
you think you are the Christ, you think

you are the great ruler and God of the
earth.” He is talking to a man. He is not
talking to some archangel at all.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell
(sheol or the grave), to the sides of the
pit. They that see thee shall narrowly
look upon thee, and consider thee,
saying, Is this the man that made the
earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms:
Isaiah 14:15-16
Even though Babylon ruled over all of
the known world at that time, God is
taunting this king and telling him that he
is not a christ, he is not a great ruler. God
says this king is a mortal man and he will
be brought down to death and to the
grave.
That made the world as a wilderness,
and destroyed the cities thereof; that
opened not the house of his prisoners?
All the kings of the nations, even all of
them, lie in glory, every one in his own
house. But thou art cast out of thy
grave like an abominable branch,
and as the raiment of those that are
slain, thrust through with a sword,
that go down to the stones of the pit;
as a carcass trodden under feet. Thou
shalt not be joined with them in burial,
because thou hast destroyed thy
land, and slain thy people: the seed of
evildoers shall never be renowned.
Prepare slaughter for his children for
the iniquity of their fathers (this king
had children); that they do not rise,
nor possess the land, nor fill the face
of the world with cities. For I will rise
up against them, saith the Lord of
hosts, and cut off from Babylon the
name, and remnant, and son, and
nephew, saith the Lord. I will also
make it a possession for the bittern,
and pools of water: and I will sweep it
with the besom of destruction, saith

the Lord of hosts. The Lord of hosts
hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have
thought, so shall it come to pass; and
as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isaiah 14:17-24
If you look at the context of this
prophecy, the probability is that it was fulfilled
in the destruction of Belshazer, king
of Babylon, when the Babylonian empire
was taken over by the Medes and
Persians. If you read on in Isaiah, you will
find that Assyria was the next empire
which was broken by God.
Again, Isaiah 14:4 is the only place in
the Bible where the word “Lucifer” is
used. Yet we have people who call themselves
“Luciferians,” who worship a nebulous,
angelic, supernatural being, which
they say is their god. The truth of the matter
is that the word “Lucifer” shouldn't
even be in the Bible, it is an error — a
mistranslation. So, what do we have?
Well, we have the same thing with Lucifer
that we had with “sawtan” or Satan.
When we examine the Bible passages
where these words are used, we are left
with nothing that cannot be fulfilled by a
mortal man or mortal men.
I am convinced that one of the major
reasons church-going people today are not
rising up in anger against the men who
are defiling and destroying our nation is
because ministers have convinced them to
look at an archangel or a spirit-being who
they say is causing all the trouble. They
are taught to be angry at the devil instead
of the men who are destroying us. This
weapon against us is one of the most iniquitous
and effective weapons the enemy
has ever devised. We are made to think
that our enemies are motivated by something
which is supernatural when the
truth of the matter is they are motivated
by anger and hatred against us,

http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devilchapter%205.pdf

http://www.sheldonemrylibrary.com/devildue.htm
 

Caffus

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God created Evil says so in the Bible somewhere. He did so for His purpose....and He knew satan would become evil before he made him. No I dont understand it all and I certianly do not understand eternal torment...I dont belive in that...but it maybe true and I just cant understand until I die....who could? But if there was no evil there would be no pain...how can we grow and learn become deep people with no pain.
 

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I ask this question with respect: According to the bible jehova created angel lucifer. If heaven was so perfect...How did the sin of pride enter lucifer? Where did sin/evil originate? What sin lurking around in heaven?
In john1:1, it states that all that exist originated from jehova so that means nothing existed aside jehova. Did sin originate from jehova? If it didn't, why should sin/evil originate from a perfect god-jehova?
Waiting for reply. Ciao!!

There is no such thing as evil.

In the same attitude, there is no such thing as cold or dark. Cold is the absence of heat and dark is the absence of light.

God created good. The good is absolute.

Lucifer PERVERTED the good, twisting good to make it into its own purposes.
The good that Lucifer perverted was love. Love as God intended is an expression of affection for another. Lucifer's sin was pride - self-love. It loved itself more than God and thus fell into sin.

Think about it. Even sin and rebellion in the world is a perversion of good - twisting and redefining good to one's own purpose - not God's purpose.

Evil, therefore, is not a created thing it is a perversion of a good thing.

God enters the picture and creates the GREATER GOOD. Redemption of the creation is the work at hand in a world sold to slavery and perversion.

God NEVER created evil for there is no such thing as created evil, only perverted good. God cannot lie and God cannot create perversion.
The unholy angels did that.
MAN DOES THAT.

But praise God that Christ Jesus has come into the world to pay the price for our sin and perversion and to create the ultimate greater good - salvation and righteousness in the name of God the Father and His son Jesus Christ through the glory revealed by the Holy Spirit.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

God created Evil says so in the Bible somewhere. He did so for His purpose....and He knew satan would become evil before he made him. No I dont understand it all and I certianly do not understand eternal torment...I dont belive in that...but it maybe true and I just cant understand until I die....who could? But if there was no evil there would be no pain...how can we grow and learn become deep people with no pain.

That which we call evil is perverted good. God didn't create that....WE did. The Bible tells how this perversion came to enter the world and what its consequences are. All bad. All death. All the time. Every time.

GOD DID NOT CREATE EVIL.

Get it right! Get it real. Get it now.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Dan57

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I think its important to distinguish the difference between sin and evil. God did not create sin, it originated with us. Imo, evil is the direct or indirect consequence of sin. A&E sinned when they were disobedient to God, evil was experienced as a result of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

All righteousness resides in God, He is did not create sin, but created entities with free choice who choose to sin. Satan was simply the first to defy God, he was a sinner from the beginning. The wages of sin is death, but Christ is the Tree of Life.
 

aspen

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Adam and Eve were duped. Eating the fruit made them suckers rather than giving them a new skill or ability - everyone knows that there is no need to know the difference between good and evil if evil is never introduced.....
 

Axehead

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Ok... I understand what you all said. What i don't get is this '' how can there be evil, if jehova is absolutely good?'' to me it means there shouldn't be any sin/evil for any reason whatsoever, since the origin(jehova) is perfectly good so there shouldn't be any aorta of evil anywhere, unless evil/sin is a part of his nature....

I think I understand what you are saying. Lucifer never knew evil and had no example of it or no one to tempt him like Adam and Eve did.

Adam and Eve were deriving their life and purity and righteousness from God who is life and purity and righteousness. But, in comes One who is evil and speaks lying words to Eve.

So, I think what you are saying is who spoke lying words to Lucifer? Something or someone evil had to introduce him to evil just as Adam and Eve were introduced to it. Or, did he just turn away from God on his own?

What you are talking about is the "origin of evil" and I have never read anyone that has a theological solution to it. This has been debated for centuries and in philosophical circles, the origin of evil is known as "Theodicy".

It all comes down to the origin of the Evil One. How did the Adversary, the devil, Satan, come into being? There are many opinions, but no real clear answers. We know what took place in his heart (PRIDE - COVETOUSNESS. He was lifted up with pride), but we don't know what caused that.

Would Adam and Eve have turned away from God if there was no Satan? If not, why did Lucifer turn away from God?

What we do know clearly from the Scriptures is that "evil" is contrary to the nature of God. It is the antithesis of His character. And we know that God is the creator of all things, yet we don't know how evil came into His creation.

It is perfectly OK not to know something especially if God has not made it known to us.

We cannot blame evil on God for it is contrary to His nature. If evil was part of God's character then it would not be impossible for Him to lie, right? And the following statement would be, well.........a lie.

Heb_6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Since Lucifer and man are created beings and thus derivative creatures and God gave His creatures freedom of choice, then is it possible that we could choose to not derive ALL from HIM? Is it possible that Lucifer could choose not to? We know that man chose to turn away from Him and turn towards Satan, but who did Lucifer turn to is the question?

We know Adam and Eve turned away from God's words and turned towards Satan's words. That is, they rejected God's commands and received Satan's words (and acted upon them). In so doing, they turned away from God and towards Satan. Adam and Eve stopped deriving ALL from God and began deriving from Satan.

But who did Lucifer turn toward? There was no one. He stopped deriving ALL from God and ______________? I don't know. Fill in the blanks.

Karl Barth called this the “impossible possibility.”

Where did Lucifer's rebellion come from? Adam and Eve's came from Satan.

Fortunately, not knowing the answer to the origin of evil should not keep one from trusting their eternal soul to Jesus Christ.

James Fowler says:

"But a LIE was born – “I will be like the Most High God” (Isa. 14:14) – “I will be an ‘independent self’; I will function ek autos (out of myself) as a self‐for‐self. How could that be? It’s an ultimate incongruity! Did the angelic choice of Lucifer create the Adversary,

Satan by his own self‐choice? It does not seem possible. But by some means the Evil One came into being – the necessary fixed negative of God’s positive – the enemy, the opponent, the adversary – forever cursed and irredeemable. NOT co‐equal with God; not a god of good vs. a god of evil, forever in a dualistic standoff. NOT merely the absence and privation of God’s good, for explanation by absence amounts to nothing. God and Satan. There is an essential constitutional difference between them, for one is the Creator and the other a creature; One has intrinsic Being, while the other has extrinsic being. They were polarized in an essential character dichotomy of good and evil. Satan remains a derivative creature of God. He cannot be an “independent self,” self‐generating character.

Apparently Satan takes that which is of God; His goodness, righteousness, loving character, and twists such around backwards into its negative antithesis. He short‐circuits the character of God in grotesque distortion. In Acts 13:10 Paul calls Elymas a “son of the devil,” who “makes crooked the straight ways of God.”

I don’t know that this is an airtight solution to the problem of evil in the world, but it is the most biblical, theological & philosophical tenable explanation that I have ever heard.


“God is the essential​
cause of all things,​
but He is not the​
blameworthy or culpable​
cause of evil –​
that is contrary​
to His character.​
James Fowler


If you figure it out, let me know. I've been thinking about it for a long time. :)

Axehead

P.S. Let's not get bogged down right now in whether Lucifer is Satan or not, otherwise you will get derailed in trying to figure out the origination of evil.