Slaying Sacred Cows-- examining pet beliefs

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Mr E

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The purpose of this thread is to provide a place to discuss favorite ideas from scriptures. One poster in another thread made a comment surrounding the tendency for believers to form denominations based on their particular affinity to one idea or another- and he made a good observation in this. That's the core of denominational difference. I hold to this idea, while you hold to that... and each of us of course present scriptural argument to support our ideas and confront theirs. This thread contains no denominational bias. I don't care if you are Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, Muslim or Jew. I just don't care.

Let's look at beliefs for what they really are-- they are ideas. Concepts you accept. Sometimes containing even concepts you don't really understand, but you accept. --Sometimes people accept certain ideas not recognizing the unintended consequences of those beliefs. This thread is intended to be an open discussion of ideas like that-- what we believe and what it then means. It's not designed to be a proving ground for who is right and who is wrong, rather it will be a laboratory where we dissect beliefs to better understand the substance of them, what makes them what they are, and what that then means... how that understanding informs and shapes our beliefs. It's an effort to embrace a logical, well-founded faith in Christ.

We can make a list of such ideas and if necessary spin out threads like the one discussing Mary and Joseph's "coming together" (uniting in marriage) when he takes her as his wife before they "come together" (cohabit) and they begin living together as newly married couples do. If anyone has new ideas that haven't already been addressed in that thread-- add them to the list here.

Another sacred cow surrounds the humanity of the baby they had. I've heard some here argue emphatically that Jesus was not human. He was something more like super-human, only appearing to be a man. We can look at that. If you believe that, your beliefs have certain repercussions. A hot button issue is the belief in the trinity-- a topic considered out of bounds, so beyond this mention here we'll carefully avoid discussing it in this thread to abide by Forum wishes. It's just too upsetting for some to discuss. Some hold it so tightly and some oppose it so strongly. I could argue that for those reasons it should be discussed, but it won't be here. How about 'the rapture?' For some it's a deal-breaker belief-- You must believe it, while others dismiss it. -But there have to be a few dozen rapture discussions already. I'd like to look at bigger, more foundational ideas.

If anyone has an idea they'd like to raise, the floor is open. Otherwise-- I'll dive into something from my own heart.
 

Wrangler

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Let's look at beliefs for what they really are-- they are ideas. Concepts you accept.
A challenge in having such conversations is agreeing on a set of facts one then forms beliefs and opinions. One non-religious example is evolution. Opponents trivialize it as merely a theory, pointing out that it is called the Theory of Evolution.

However, proponents point out that evidence is a fact of reality. Speciation has been observed many times. The theory involves the mechanisms to explain the reality we observe. Darwin identified 1 mechanism, the survival of the fittest. Now, I beleive 5 distinct mechanisms have been identified. Do you believe there are more mechanisms or have we got our mind around it? And why?

Another example I used to demonstrate this phenomena of the line between facts and opinions or beliefs is the Theory of Shadows. That shadow's exist is a fact of reality. We can delve into our beliefs of what causes shadows. Point being, I suspect some people's sacred cows involve confounding what are facts and what are opinions or beliefs.
 

Mr E

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A challenge in having such conversations is agreeing on a set of facts one then forms beliefs and opinions. One non-religious example is evolution. Opponents trivialize it as merely a theory, pointing out that it is called the Theory of Evolution.

However, proponents point out that evidence is a fact of reality. Speciation has been observed many times. The theory involves the mechanisms to explain the reality we observe. Darwin identified 1 mechanism, the survival of the fittest. Now, I beleive 5 distinct mechanisms have been identified. Do you believe there are more mechanisms or have we got our mind around it? And why?

Another example I used to demonstrate this phenomena of the line between facts and opinions or beliefs is the Theory of Shadows. That shadow's exist is a fact of reality. We can delve into our beliefs of what causes shadows. Point being, I suspect some people's sacred cows involve confounding what are facts and what are opinions or beliefs.

I like this a lot! You are right in that when it comes to closely-held beliefs sometimes opponents are using the same words while meaning entirely different concepts. Also right in your mention of theory--- while most people don't consider their own beliefs to be theory at all, but fact. Only the opinions of others are theories! :no 1:

This is an attempt to have folks acknowledge that even their own beliefs (most of them) exist in the same realm of everyone else's. The world of beliefs. It's an attempt to take down the temperature in the room and invite humble consideration and examination apart from ideological prejudice and the typical foot stomping that goes with territory when those beliefs are challenged in any way.

We don't need Joe Biden threatening to take on Corn Pop in this thread.

While I'm not specifically familiar with the theory of shadows that you mention-- Darwin's theories are well-known and understood by most people to the degree that they can be discussed. I'm would want to look at the implications of such beliefs in particular. How it shapes your worldview and your understanding of God if you hold those ideas surrounding origins and evolution. It might mean you don't believe in a young earth-- the 6000 year old model that some Christians consider pivotal..... as one such repercussion.

I suppose that if it requires a definition of a shadow in order to discuss shadow theory, then such a conversation should start there by stipulating that -they exist- and what they are. I think common ground always exists and should be sought as the basis for any discussion where beliefs, opinions, and theories are shared.
 

Mr E

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As @Wrangler beautifully expressed--- sometimes different opinions are a result of different terminology, or even when precise terminology is used, but understood in different ways. We say the same things but mean different things. Sometimes we say different things, but think them to automatically mean what we mean them to, without considering the idea that it means something quite different to another person.

A poignant example of how easily division like this is created....

 
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Wrangler

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I'm would want to look at the implications of such beliefs in particular.
In another thread, an atheist could not separate my conception of God from the existence of God.

To show how confused his argument was, he asserted that many in the world have a different conception of God than I do. While this may be true, it does not affect the existence of God.

Now I know this is not exactly the comparison of fact and belief or opinion in my previous post. It still goes to show how quickly a tangent to the subject can crop up.

To an atheist, I consider conceptions of God secondary. The primary point is to tackle existence. In my study of atheism, it is a belief in nihilism, the belief of nil, nothing, naught for it does not posit a positive belief. Therefore, it remains forever God-centered. Many atheists have found it easier to defend Agnosticism, uncertainty, for they know their nihilistic beliefs are intellectually undefensible; they know one cannot prove a negative.

However, this is just word play on the part of our Atheist friends. In one thread, one victim of the disorder suffered greatly with my simple question of what is the purpose to his life. He ultimately had no answer. They are nihilists and advocate a void, non-existence - which contradicts there own existence. They claim to be guided by science and objective evidence but nothing could be further from the truth for these poor souls. Therefore, nihilism is the sacred cow of Atheists.


nihilism
noun
ni·hil·ism ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm ˈnē-
1
a
: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
Nihilism is a condition in which all ultimate values lose their value.
—Ronald H. Nash
b
: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2
a
: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility
 
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Mr E

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In another thread, an atheist could not separate my conception of God from the existence of God.

To show how confused his argument was, he asserted that many in the world have a different conception of God than I do. While this may be true, it does not affect the existence of God.

Now I know this is not exactly the comparison of fact and belief or opinion in my previous post. It still goes to show how quickly a tangent to the subject can crop up.

To an atheist, I consider conceptions of God secondary. The primary point is to tackle existence. In my study of atheism, it is a belief in nihilism, the belief of nil, nothing, naught for it does not posit a positive belief. Therefore, it remains forever God-centered. Many atheists have found it easier to defend Agnosticism, uncertainty, for they know their nihilistic beliefs are intellectually undefensible; they know one cannot prove a negative.

However, this is just word play on the part of our Atheist friends. In one thread, one victim of the disorder suffered greatly with my simple question of what is the purpose to his life. He ultimately had no answer. They are nihilists and advocate a void, non-existence - which contradicts there own existence. They claim to be guided by science and objective evidence but nothing could be further from the truth for these poor souls. Therefore, nihilism is the sacred cow of Atheists.


nihilism
noun
ni·hil·ism ˈnī-(h)ə-ˌli-zəm ˈnē-
1
a
: a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless
Nihilism is a condition in which all ultimate values lose their value.
—Ronald H. Nash
b
: a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths
2
a
: a doctrine or belief that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake independent of any constructive program or possibility

Here too, I would try to find some common ground. In conversations about God with atheists I sometimes pose the question like this saying— I know you don’t believe in God, but IF there is one, what would you imagine him to be like?

Often I’ll get some version of what they think God must be like based upon their experiences with people who describe themselves as believers— particularly Christians. They might see God as angry, or petty, or hateful, vindictive, scary- and so on.

I’ll agree with them— Oh, I don’t believe in a God like that either.

If you are so easily able and eager to slay their sacred cows, are you as willing to talk about any of your own? Does your model allow for diversity of a kind?

I’m trying to encourage an open dialogue and an honest examination. A kind of holy reality check Batman. Not all atheists are absolute nihilists, nor are all Christians shining examples of what Christians ought to be.
 
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St. SteVen

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A poignant example of how easily division like this is created....

LOL
That video is hilarious. Thanks.

Illustrates well the tribalism created between some denominations.
Fueds as petty as to sprinkle, or immerse.
 
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St. SteVen

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Another example I used to demonstrate this phenomena of the line between facts and opinions or beliefs is the Theory of Shadows. That shadow's exist is a fact of reality. We can delve into our beliefs of what causes shadows. Point being, I suspect some people's sacred cows involve confounding what are facts and what are opinions or beliefs.
In a brief discussion recently about this very thing, I formulated a question.
Darkness is the absence of light; what do we call the absence of darkness? And...
Is there anywhere in the open expanses of space where we would find complete darkness?

On a more spiritual level. Was there darkness before the creation of the KNOWN universe?
 
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Mr E

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In a brief discussion recently about this very thing, I formulated a question.
Darkness is the absence of light; what do we call the absence of darkness? And...
Is there anywhere in the open expanses of space where we would find complete darkness?

On a more spiritual level. Was there darkness before the creation of the KNOWN universe?

Is this a trick question? 'What do we call the absence of darkness?' It's like-- What do you call a dog with no legs? --it doesn't matter, it won't come.

I'm glad you are interested in the spiritual level... it's what matters. The physical renderings are mere images presented to give you a better understanding of that spiritual reality. Looking at the physical, trying to understand the spiritual- is a bit like what @Wrangler might recognize as looking at a shadow of a man-- really studying it closely, carefully observing and with only that shadow trying to understand the thoughts and feelings of the man who casts that shadow.

In that spiritual sense, the darkness is simply a 'not knowing,' -or if you prefer- an absence of knowing. To answer your teased question, an absence of not knowing (darkness) might simply be an absence of curiosity. An absence of inquiry.

And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not comprehended it.

The beginning, naturally is a great starting point. It's where I'd like to start as well. If we are going to examine our beliefs, where else should we start?
 

St. SteVen

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Darwin's theories are well-known and understood by most people to the degree that they can be discussed. I'm would want to look at the implications of such beliefs in particular. How it shapes your worldview and your understanding of God if you hold those ideas surrounding origins and evolution. It might mean you don't believe in a young earth-- the 6000 year old model that some Christians consider pivotal..... as one such repercussion.
I'll have to admit that I face some challenges in this area.
I was raised on the evangelical "biblical" view of creation. (young earth)
But I know some fine Christian folk that defend the "science" of origins. (Darwin)
Some even claiming he was a believer. Say what? (news to me)

Left with many questions concerning the biblical text, science, genealogies...
Questions of biblical authorship from an ancient texts POV, and the apparent support
for the traditional view in the NT. (new testament) The books of Moses were claimed to
have been written by Moses. No questions there.
 
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St. SteVen

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Is this a trick question? 'What do we call the absence of darkness?' It's like-- What do you call a dog with no legs? --it doesn't matter, it won't come.
If a dog that won't come isn't a dog, we have problems well beyond a lack of legs. - LOL
 

Wrangler

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Sticking with the non-religious; their sacred cow is "Science" with a capital-S. The evil woke agenda, including 57 genders goes against the science of biology.
 
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Mr E

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Sticking with the non-religious; their sacred cow is "Science" with a capital-S. The evil woke agenda, including 57 genders goes against the science of biology.

Science "used to be" a field of inquiry. An investigative process without a predetermined outcome. It's no longer that. "Science" has been redefined and commandeered to the extent that it is no longer science, but an actual religion wherein one isn't really interested in observable facts, or serious inquiry. Instead 'scientific sounding' doctrine and dogma replace and remove any evidence that might contradict the set of "facts" as the scientists present them. They don't want to examine anything to the contrary.

That might sound like a condemnation of science and scientists alike-- but if you really think about it, it's actually a harsh condemnation of religion and the religionists who practice the same ridiculous approach. Saying that the scientists have become like religionists is at least an honest admission as to what religionists are like.
 

St. SteVen

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Looking at the physical, trying to understand the spiritual- is a bit like what @Wrangler might recognize as looking at a shadow of a man-- really studying it closely, carefully observing and with only that shadow trying to understand the thoughts and feelings of the man who casts that shadow.
I would say that in some cases we might learn quite a bit from a man's shadow.
Body language is still evident in a shadow. The silhouette being a representative shape that may give us clues.
In our example we have not spoken to the man to ask the important questions. However...

We are observing a slice of a more complex happening.
The shadow being but one clue among many.
- Where is the man?
- How did we come to observe his shadow?
- Who else is present?
- What are the relationships of those present?
- Do their shadows give us more clues?
- Are they close together, or far apart?
- Coming toward each other, or going away from each other?
- Is there an ongoing discussion among those present?
- Are they responding to something that has just taken place?

With all this in mind, what does the shadow tell us?

Maybe I'm off the rails here. LOL
 
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Mr E

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I would say that in some cases we might learn quite a bit from a man's shadow.
Body language is still evident in a shadow. The silhouette being a representative shape that may give us clues.
In our example we have not spoken to the man to ask the important questions. However...

We are observing a slice of a more complex happening.
The shadow being but one clue among many.
- Where is the man?
- How did we come to observe his shadow?
- Who else is present?
- What are the relationships of those present?
- Do their shadows give us more clues?
- Are they close together, or far apart?
- Coming toward each other, or going away from each other?
- Is there an ongoing discussion among those present?
- Are they responding to something that has just taken place?

With all this in mind, what does the shadow tell us?

Maybe I'm off the rails here. LOL

Good questions! I stipulated with 'only' the shadow to examine.... could you know the thoughts and emotions? The motives and intentions?

Maybe (at best) - you could take a stab at understanding. BUT, you might also interpret a dancing shadow as one that could only have been cast by an insane man. Or a shadow seen hopping up and down you might interpret as angry, when that unseen man is just exercising.

The shadow only presents a one dimensional "likeness" of the one casting it. Like your reflection in a mirror is a representation of you-- an exact likeness, yet nothing like you in your totality. Your reflection or image is only that-- not your 'person' -instead just a resemblance of but one aspect of you-- your physical presence.


And in this way-- man was created in the image or likeness of......
 

Wrangler

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no longer science, but an actual religion wherein one isn't really interested in observable facts, or serious inquiry. Instead 'scientific sounding' doctrine and dogma replace and remove any evidence that might contradict the set of "facts" as the scientists present them.
What you wrote above is missing quotes around "scientists" who are as easily bought as politicians.

Capital-S is used as an appeal to authority by politicians attempting to advance a political agenda. Hence, claims like "99.7% of climate scientists say ..." reveal the attempt to thwart true science, which does NOT work by majority; politics works by majority.

Another dead give away of the politicization of science is to qualify opposing evidence by Poisoning The Well - as IF only someone with the credentials they cite - like PhD in climatology - or publishing in journals that don't meet their high standards - like only "peer reviewed". The ancient War of Good and Evil is clearly showing itself in restrictions on speech and free flow of information. The J6 vids are case in point.
 

Mr E

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What you wrote above is missing quotes around "scientists" who are as easily bought as politicians.

Capital-S is used as an appeal to authority by politicians attempting to advance a political agenda. Hence, claims like "99.7% of climate scientists say ..." reveal the attempt to thwart true science, which does NOT work by majority; politics works by majority.

Another dead give away of the politicization of science is to qualify opposing evidence by Poisoning The Well - as IF only someone with the credentials they cite - like PhD in climatology - or publishing in journals that don't meet their high standards - like only "peer reviewed". The ancient War of Good and Evil is clearly showing itself in restrictions on speech and free flow of information. The J6 vids are case in point.

You are eager to hold those Scientists' feet to the fire and while I agree with all you've said concerning them, the same holds true for Religionists (Christians) who employ the same political tactics. Consensus isn't a worthy goal of science nor religion. What I mean is-- as you point out-- majority opinion has no claim to truth as if we are ruled by the mob who can be persuaded of one thing or another despite evidence to the contrary. Just because everybody goes along with an opinion or belief, that consensus agreement means nothing if there is no inquiry undertaken and particularly if there is no opportunity to present observable facts that contest those beliefs. This is true of both science and religion, and science as becoming more and more like religion, controlled by zealots and those they convince to go along with their 'truth' (beliefs) and/or their agenda which drives them.
 
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Wrangler

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This is true of both science and religion, and science as becoming more and more like religion, controlled by zealots and those they convince to go along with their 'truth' (beliefs) and/or their agenda which drives them.
The dichotomy is not religion and science. The proper pairing is politics and religion. The reason many say to avoid these topics in polite company is they have the same genus; ethics.

To study anything is what a prudent person does to improve his life. Uneducated are indoctrinated into falsely equating technological breakthroughs by magic called capital-S, science. In logic, the fallacy is Appeal to Authority. Just because somebody has esoteric knowledge - in fields of science or religion - does not qualify them to be our political masters. This is true, no matter how many times the political class attempt to use any authority to lord tyranny over the people.
 
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Mr E

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The dichotomy is not religion and science. The proper pairing is politics and religion. The reason many say to avoid these topics in polite company is they have the same genus; ethics.

To study anything is what a prudent person does to improve his life. Uneducated are indoctrinated into falsely equating technological breakthroughs by magic called capital-S, science. In logic, the fallacy is Appeal to Authority. Just because somebody has esoteric knowledge - in fields of science or religion - does not qualify them to be our political masters. This is true, no matter how many times the political class attempt to use any authority to lord tyranny over the people.

True that. Few recognize that however. "Theologians do exactly what Scientists do." They present their beliefs as fact, then shout down anyone who endeavors to examine those facts as presented. The impetus for this thread.
 

Mr E

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In the olden days, a scientific inquiry might start with a "What if?" postulation. A theory, or idea to be tested. The one place I see this referenced directly in scripture was in Paul's commendation of the Bereans- who would listen to his ideas and then go study to see if it was true. This is the direct opposite approach most people would take. When they hear new ideas most people tend to disagree immediately and set out to disprove what they've been told.

And now, instead of a "what if" we are presented ideas not as concepts to be tested, but statements of fact that must be accepted as fact, repeated as fact, and never contested- because, they are fact. Global warming, COVID Vaccines, War in Ukraine, Integrity of elections, and so on. I could give as many examples within a religious setting- The Trinity and God-Man Jesus, the Rapture, Young Earth-- and so on.

Sacred cows all-- that must be humbly accepted and never spoken against. Even here, in a simple, silly discussion forum-- the discussion of one these can get you banned. We can't even talk about it.... in a forum made for talking. Sacred Cow.

And there are many, even here who will stand up and defend the idea that such Sacred Cows must at all costs be protected. Perhaps.... maybe because they are endangered animals. Because-- What if?

What if many of those things we are told we dare not challenge and must not ever speak against or even question-- What if we got a lot of it wrong? Right from the start.