Slaying the two witnesses

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Istreanu Kalifrey

New Member
Jul 18, 2021
6
0
1
42
Mesa, Arizona
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They are Moses and Elijah but more importantly they are the law and the prophets. The two lampstands.

Find this teaching someone online as it is foundation for all else.

Christ said the law cannot pass until all is fulfilled not the least big of it and whoever teaches others to break the least of these commandments shall be called least in heaven.

Your beloved chief of sinners saul of tarsus does just that. All verses in job 41 are about paul. Tell me sheep: if I came as a killer of christians would you easily welcome me as one of your own? If I said I had a thorn of satan in my flesh would you appoint me your leader over christ himself?

Then how justify you in not keeping the law? Christ will reject them for lawlessness after all. Whom do you follow the commander or the sargeant? This is a test for christians to see if they can keep the chain of command. God then jesus then apostles.

So if Paul says you can eat food blessed to idols and christ says no in revelation letters to churchs what will do with this lovely cake consecrated to baal I just baked you?

Good you are learning.

Paul or rather leviathan within him does away with the law of moses.

Did you know that in part paul and jesus were based on one person apollonius of tyana. It's only partly true but look at this:

Paul said the thorn of days. In his flesh was received as an angel called jesus christ. Thorns choke the word of Yeshua. Seeds that fall on thorny soil who have not a heart for seeking truth.

Salome, woman who asked for John the baptist elijahs head was a follower of jesus. When it was done and they got the body jesus fled town so as not to be arrested.

Gospels give us two jesus. From nathan and from Solomon. Perhaps one of them was yeshua and the other was judas.

Zech 11 give to ME MY price is judas turning himself in?

Apostle said about christ "cursed is he who hangs on a tree."

Paulus means little as in little horn if the beast.

Saul of Tarsus fulfills all tenets if antichrist by the way.

The saints will not be fooled into following some new upstart antichrist.

This doesn't mean nothing paul said us inspired. Remember the chain of command. Paul and the other apostles are still superior officers but we must first prioritize the orders from Yeshua the Messiah.

The old oil burns out at midnight. Don't be a foolish virgin who thinks it will last and does not look for new better oil.
 
Last edited:

forever

Member
Jul 7, 2021
162
12
18
51
Kampen
Faith
Christian
Country
Netherlands
no.

the both witnesses - in prophets- are the house judah ad the house ishral .
they represent 'the company of the sons of God',
and more specified :
a group of sons [-and daughters] who could have become complete during history
but never have --------- until now .

These witnesses - 144,000 sons and daughters -
will be taken from earth when Christ resturns ,
and will be SENT BACK to this dark earth
to witness to the souls who stayed behind .
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
They are Moses and Elijah but more importantly they are the law and the prophets. The two lampstands.

Find this teaching someone online as it is foundation for all else.

Christ said the law cannot pass until all is fulfilled not the least big of it and whoever teaches others to break the least of these commandments shall be called least in heaven.

Your beloved chief of sinners saul of tarsus does just that. All verses in job 41 are about paul. Tell me sheep: if I came as a killer of christians would you easily welcome me as one of your own? If I said I had a thorn of satan in my flesh would you appoint me your leader over christ himself?

Then how justify you in not keeping the law? Christ will reject them for lawlessness after all. Whom do you follow the commander or the sargeant? This is a test for christians to see if they can keep the chain of command. God then jesus then apostles.

So if Paul says you can eat food blessed to idols and christ says no in revelation letters to churchs what will do with this lovely cake consecrated to baal I just baked you?

Good you are learning.

Paul or rather leviathan within him does away with the law of moses.

Did you know that in part paul and jesus were based on one person apollonius of tyana. It's only partly true but look at this:

Paul said the thorn of days. In his flesh was received as an angel called jesus christ. Thorns choke the word of Yeshua. Seeds that fall on thorny soil who have not a heart for seeking truth.

Salome, woman who asked for John the baptist elijahs head was a follower of jesus. When it was done and they got the body jesus fled town so as not to be arrested.

Gospels give us two jesus. From nathan and from Solomon. Perhaps one of them was yeshua and the other was judas.

Psalm 55 christ calls judas a man equal to himself and his guide.

Zech 11 give to ME MY price is judas turning himself in?

Apostle said about christ "cursed is he who hangs on a tree."

Therefore I wonder if judas tried to save yeshua but in so doing stole his glory and became the man on the cross.

You have judas to thank you for the whole crucifixion yet judas is damned. What if judas had not? What if no one would kill christ? Would he then be forced to commit suicide? Peter tried to stop him and us called satan for it.

Judas peter snc paul three shepherds cut off in one month. Daniels bear raised himself up on one side. Go and find peter in the book of acts. See the bear written all over him.

Paulus means little as in little horn if the beast. Here are the 8 kings.

Matthew.
Mark.
Like.
John.
James.
Peter.
Jude.
Paul.

Here are the ten:

Philemon titus timothy.
Romans ephesians galatians.
Thessalonians collisions.
Corinthians phillipines.

Saul of Tarsus fulfills all tenets if antichrist by the way. The saints are given into his hands for a time times to the dividing of time itself which is he rapture.

The saints will not be fooled into following some new upstart antichrist.

This doesn't mean nothing paul said us inspired. Remember the chain of command. Paul and the other apostles are still superior officers but we must first prioritize the orders from Yeshua the Messiah.

The old oil burns out at midnight. Don't be a foolish virgin who thinks it will last and does not look for new better oil.
Very rarely have I come across such a poorly laid out thought. You jump from idea to idea, accusation to assumption.
None of them… thought or accusation, has the requisite grounding or proof…either biblical or historic, to be taken seriously.
Thus, you appear here, on a Christian board, as nothing more than someone trying their best to undermine people’s faith with nothing more than a grudge.
Please read the forum rules before continuing…and keep such posts to the non-Christian section.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,231
113
North America
Very rarely have I come across such a poorly laid out thought. You jump from idea to idea, accusation to assumption.
None of them… thought or accusation, has the requisite grounding or proof…either biblical or historic, to be taken seriously.
Thus, you appear here, on a Christian board, as nothing more than someone trying their best to undermine people’s faith with nothing more than a grudge.
Please read the forum rules before continuing…and keep such posts to the non-Christian section.
@Naomi25 In the end it's good to read Scripture and accept a balance of plain statements; rather than theorize in too abstract a manner - which might seem attractive to those schooled in logic, but does not necessarily accord with the plain statements of Scripture.
 

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@Naomi25 In the end it's good to read Scripture and accept a balance of plain statements; rather than theorize in too abstract a manner - which might seem attractive to those schooled in logic, but does not necessarily accord with the plain statements of Scripture.
Abstract and logic can be fine in context. Asking radical ideas is even fine. But the above claims seemed to be little more than opinion and a clumsy attempt to discredit Christianity. If Istreanu doesn’t want to be a Christian, that’s fine, it’s their choice. But this board, in particular this section, is for Christians to discuss Christian things. Not for people attempting to discredit it or tear it down.
 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,231
113
North America
Abstract and logic can be fine in context. Asking radical ideas is even fine. But the above claims seemed to be little more than opinion and a clumsy attempt to discredit Christianity. If Istreanu doesn’t want to be a Christian, that’s fine, it’s their choice. But this board, in particular this section, is for Christians to discuss Christian things. Not for people attempting to discredit it or tear it down.
@Naomi25 It may be said that Reformed theology has a combination of the order of logic and the fire of Scripture. True to an extent; in the end, I'm not really Reformed, but appreciate Biblically based Reformed theology.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Naomi25

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2016
3,199
1,801
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@Naomi25 It may be said that Reformed theology has a combination of the order of logic and the fire of Scripture. True to an extent; in the end, I'm not really Reformed, but appreciate Biblically based Reformed theology.
Lol! Labels are crazy! I suppose they are helpful when trying to explain to others what we believe…but so often I find that that just don’t…quite…fit. Nearly…but not quite.
 

Desire Of All Nations

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2021
748
408
63
Troy
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible never identifies who the 2 witnesses are or even gives a clue about their identities. If someone tries to act like they know, they are lying and being presumptuous. Moses and Elijah are in their graves waiting for Christ's return, so it's definitely not them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

6 Stories

Active Member
Aug 1, 2021
252
30
28
65
Chapin
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible never identifies who the 2 witnesses are or even gives a clue about their identities. If someone tries to act like they know, they are lying and being presumptuous. Moses and Elijah are in their graves waiting for Christ's return, so it's definitely not them.

The bible identifies the 2 witnesses as 2 candlesticks and candlesticks are identified as churches. Rev 11:4, Rev 1:20.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches.

These 2 witnesses/churches are also resurrected and raptured (Rev 11:11-12) before the first resurrection of Rev 20:4. This would make them the first fruits of the first resurrection.
The 144,000 are also the first fruits of the first resurrection as mentioned in Rev 14:1-5.
These are the only 2 references of first fruits that will be resurrected and raptured just before the first resurrection.
Jesus is first fruits of the Spring harvest. (Unleavened Bread)
Christians are the first fruits of the Summer harvest. (Pentacost)
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are the 144,000 who will be the first fruits of the Fall harvest. (Tabernacles)

The 2 witnesses are also 2 olive trees. Rev 11:4. Olive trees are symbolic of the houses of Israel and Judah in Jer 11:16-17 and as the nation of Israel in Romans 11:24-25. The 144,000 consists entirely of the 12 tribes of Israel. Rev 7:4-8.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches comprised of these 144,000 Israeli members.
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The bible identifies the 2 witnesses as 2 candlesticks and candlesticks are identified as churches. Rev 11:4, Rev 1:20.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches.

These 2 witnesses/churches are also resurrected and raptured (Rev 11:11-12) before the first resurrection of Rev 20:4. This would make them the first fruits of the first resurrection.
The 144,000 are also the first fruits of the first resurrection as mentioned in Rev 14:1-5.
These are the only 2 references of first fruits that will be resurrected and raptured just before the first resurrection.
Jesus is first fruits of the Spring harvest. (Unleavened Bread)
Christians are the first fruits of the Summer harvest. (Pentacost)
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are the 144,000 who will be the first fruits of the Fall harvest. (Tabernacles)

The 2 witnesses are also 2 olive trees. Rev 11:4. Olive trees are symbolic of the houses of Israel and Judah in Jer 11:16-17 and as the nation of Israel in Romans 11:24-25. The 144,000 consists entirely of the 12 tribes of Israel. Rev 7:4-8.

Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches comprised of these 144,000 Israeli members.

Okay, let me get this straight:

Two churches are clothed in sackcloth - like the OT prophet John the Baptist wore - and kill those who attack them by fire preceding out of their mouths, and two churches can stop it from raining, and two churches are killed, and lie dead in the streets for 3.5 days, and are resurrected then taken up to heaven?

Or, 144,000 Jews who, btw, follow Jesus everywhere He goes, do the same thing? Burn those attacking them by fire? All 144,000 are killed, though Jesus is right there with them - lie dead in the streets 3.5 days, then resurrected and are taken up to heaven- and this after Jesus already resurrected them once already?

Really?

And did you miss that both Elijah and Enoch were taken alive up into the heavens?

It would seem very likely that the only two people who were ever taken to heaven without dying, weren’t just taken to make an interesting Sunday school story. but to be the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Allow me to introduce you to David Guzik, who explains why the two witnesses are men who the symbols of the two candlesticks and two olive trees are applied to, by using and citing, scholarship on the issue:

The ministry of the two witnesses.

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

a. My two witnesses: This introduces two of the more interesting characters of Revelation, the two witnesses. The character of their ministry is prophetic (they will prophesy); they preach and demonstrate repentance (clothed in sackcloth), and they have an effective ministry (I will give power).

i. The two witnesses indeed ministry with power. “Such power, in fact, that they are able to witness for 1,260 days in spite of the antagonism of the world.” (Walvoord)

b. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands: The witnesses have an unique, continual empowering from the Holy Spirit, as shown in Zechariah’s olive trees and oil lamps picture (Zec 4:2-3; Zec 4:14).

i. The passage from Zechariah had its first application to two men in Zechariah’s day: Joshua and Zerubbabel. “Just as these two witnesses were raised up to be lampstands or witnesses for God and were empowered by olive oil representing the power of the Holy Spirit, so the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will likewise execute their prophetic office.” (Walvoord)

ii. In the picture from Zechariah, oil lamps are filled directly from olive trees which “pipe” oil right to the lamps. This is a picture of continual, abundant supply. If we will be witnesses, we must first have something to witness - our own personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then, we must have the power of the Holy Spirit to bring forth the story of what we have witnessed effectively.

iii. “In this book of the Revelation the Holy Ghost borrows all the elegancies and flowers in the story of the Old Testament, thereby to set out the story of the New in succeeding ages.” (Trapp)

c. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies: The two witnesses have special protection from God, similar to Elijah’s in 2 Kings 1.

d. These have power to shut heaven . . . they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire: The two witnesses have the power to bring both drought and plague, similar to the power Elijah (Jas 5:17-18) and Moses (Exodus 7-12) had.

e. In the ancient Greek grammar, all the nouns used to speak of the two witnesses in this passage are in the masculine gender. The two witnesses are definitely two men.

2. (Rev 11:7-10) The death of the two witnesses.

When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Maranatha
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Bible never identifies who the 2 witnesses are or even gives a clue about their identities. If someone tries to act like they know, they are lying and being presumptuous. Moses and Elijah are in their graves waiting for Christ's return, so it's definitely not them.

Elijah was translated alive into the heavens on a chariot of fire - so was Enoch.

See post number 11 on who the two witnesses most likely are.

BTW Moses’ body died, but he’s not taking a dirt nap with his body - because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration - but having died physically already, he is disqualified from being one of the two witnesses, who both die

Shalom Aleichem
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

David H.

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
2,465
1,893
113
55
michigan
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Elijah was translated alive into the heavens on a chariot of fire - so was Enoch.

See post number 11 on who the two witnesses most likely are.

The two witnesses are the last two saints of the church age left alive. The word Witnesses is Martys in the Greek, the same word used to describe the saints who overcome Satan, The same ones who are persecuted in the fifth seal..... We are all witnesses, in that respect, but the two witnesses are the last two saints left standing in the end.

Like John the Baptist, who was just first century man, so too will the two witnesses be. And like John they will be empowered by the spirits of the Prophets of Old, With John the Baptist being empowered by the spirit of Elijah.

Of the Original apostles, Only John did not suffer a martyrs death, dying in His Old Age. His spirit will be one that empowers one of the two witnesses. The Other is likely Elijah, Or Zerubbabel As Per Scripture. The transition from Revelation 10 to Revelation 11 will tell you John Is one of the two witnesses. Scripture also tells us Elijah will precede the coming of the King, and Zerubbabel is also said to the Signet of His coming. (Malachi 4:5-6, Haggai 2:22-23). All that aside, the two witnesses will be humans who are alive during the end time not reincarnated historical figures, and these men will be empowered by the Spirit of John, Zerubbabel, and Elijah. It is my Opinion that the coming of Elijah is specific for the Jewish People and He is not one of the two witnesses for this reason as his ministry comes after the church age ends.
 

6 Stories

Active Member
Aug 1, 2021
252
30
28
65
Chapin
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay, let me get this straight:

Two churches are clothed in sackcloth - like the OT prophet John the Baptist wore - and kill those who attack them by fire preceding out of their mouths, and two churches can stop it from raining, and two churches are killed, and lie dead in the streets for 3.5 days, and are resurrected then taken up to heaven?

Exactly. Did you think I was referring to buildings?

Or, 144,000 Jews who, btw, follow Jesus everywhere He goes, do the same thing? Burn those attacking them by fire? All 144,000 are killed, though Jesus is right there with them - lie dead in the streets 3.5 days, then resurrected and are taken up to heaven- and this after Jesus already resurrected them once already?

Really?

Your timing of being with Jesus and following Jesus are different from my timing.

In Rev 7, the 144,000 Jews become Christians. Rev 7:1 - 8:5) is the second of 6 stories told from Rev chapters 6 - 19. They become Christians (sealed) before the 4 winds blow in the final world empire. See Dan 7:2-3.

In Rev 11, the 144,000 reveal their God given power for 3.5 years until they are killed. This is the time of the great tribulation, from the abomination of desolation until their death. Rev 8:6 - 11:19 is the third of 6 stories told from Rev chapters 6 - 19.

In Rev 14, the 144,000 have been caught up into heaven to be with Jesus. Rev 11 pictured them going up and Rev 14 pictures their arrival. It is only after they have gone from earth to heaven that they are literally with Jesus and move wherever he goes. I am not sure why you think I said they would be resurrected twice. Rev 12:7 - 14:20 is the fourth of 6 stories told from Rev chapters 6 - 19.

And did you miss that both Elijah and Enoch were taken alive up into the heavens?

It would seem very likely that the only two people who were ever taken to heaven without dying, weren’t just taken to make an interesting Sunday school story. but to be the two witnesses during the tribulation.

Which heavens were they taken into? John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Had heaven been prepared for any man? John 14:2-3 "
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Allow me to introduce you to David Guzik, who explains why the two witnesses are men who the symbols of the two candlesticks and two olive trees are applied to, by using and citing, scholarship on the issue:

The ministry of the two witnesses.

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

a. My two witnesses: This introduces two of the more interesting characters of Revelation, the two witnesses. The character of their ministry is prophetic (they will prophesy); they preach and demonstrate repentance (clothed in sackcloth), and they have an effective ministry (I will give power).

i. The two witnesses indeed ministry with power. “Such power, in fact, that they are able to witness for 1,260 days in spite of the antagonism of the world.” (Walvoord)

b. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands: The witnesses have an unique, continual empowering from the Holy Spirit, as shown in Zechariah’s olive trees and oil lamps picture (Zec 4:2-3; Zec 4:14).

i. The passage from Zechariah had its first application to two men in Zechariah’s day: Joshua and Zerubbabel. “Just as these two witnesses were raised up to be lampstands or witnesses for God and were empowered by olive oil representing the power of the Holy Spirit, so the two witnesses of Revelation 11 will likewise execute their prophetic office.” (Walvoord)

ii. In the picture from Zechariah, oil lamps are filled directly from olive trees which “pipe” oil right to the lamps. This is a picture of continual, abundant supply. If we will be witnesses, we must first have something to witness - our own personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then, we must have the power of the Holy Spirit to bring forth the story of what we have witnessed effectively.

iii. “In this book of the Revelation the Holy Ghost borrows all the elegancies and flowers in the story of the Old Testament, thereby to set out the story of the New in succeeding ages.” (Trapp)

c. And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies: The two witnesses have special protection from God, similar to Elijah’s in 2 Kings 1.

d. These have power to shut heaven . . . they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire: The two witnesses have the power to bring both drought and plague, similar to the power Elijah (Jas 5:17-18) and Moses (Exodus 7-12) had.

e. In the ancient Greek grammar, all the nouns used to speak of the two witnesses in this passage are in the masculine gender. The two witnesses are definitely two men.

2. (Rev 11:7-10) The death of the two witnesses.

When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Maranatha

I agree with everything from these scholars except that they are only 2 men. If the book of Revelation has revealed that 7 candlesticks are symbolic of 7 churches, to me, it naturally follows that 2 candlesticks are symbolic of 2 churches.

I would also add that they are likely young men since they are called virgins in Rev 14:4. In 1948, only 3 Jewish Christians were in Israel. Today, I have heard that there are 30,000. It won't be long before these prophesied 144,000 are found in Israel!
 

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Dec 22, 2019
1,280
160
63
87
Joinville
Faith
Christian
Country
Brazil
2 candlesticks - two Churches ; The Church of the Gentile believers /true Christians, and the Jewish Church-Heb.12:v.18-29

The plagues are underway, the earth is and will be smited with strong and severe plagues, and the waters - peoples, and nations, and multitudes of all tongues - is and will be turned to blood, the heaven is shut, he that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still, no more salvation but GOD's wrath will fall upon all the nations.

Isaiah 26:v.21-22

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 

6 Stories

Active Member
Aug 1, 2021
252
30
28
65
Chapin
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Oseas,

Heb 12:18-21 describes God coming to Mt Sinai in Ex 19. If you read my post about the 6 stories in the book of Revelation, God is shown with lightnings and thunderings and voices and an earthquake just as is found in Ex 19. This Exodus 19 type of event will be experienced by the nations that will gather together against God. See Rev 16:13-21. The gathering of the nations is found in Rev 16:14. The Mt Sinai type of event is found in Rev 16:18. This is the last plague that will occur while "heaven is shut." (Rev 15:8) Other than the time that heaven is shut, God's dead will experience Heb 12:22-24.

Although God's wrath is not poured out on God's people, God's people will still die during this period of God's wrath, but since heaven is shut, they will not be able to go to heaven as is normally the case. In Is 26:20, the chambers are burial chambers. They won't rise until after the Ex 19 type of event has occurred as stated in Is 26:21. Then God's people will rise with Isaiah as stated in Is 26:19. The godless dead of Is 26:21 are so numerous that they won't be buried until after the birds and beasts have eaten their flesh in Ez 39:4.
 

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Which heavens were they taken into? John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Had heaven been prepared for any man? John 14:2-3 "
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Actually, since time is the fourth dimension, and almighty God can fully control all the dimensions and transcend time, God could easily remove them from their timeline, and drop them right into the tribulation timeline.
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Curtis

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2021
3,268
1,573
113
70
KC
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All that aside, the two witnesses will be humans who are alive during the end time not reincarnated historical figures, and these men will be empowered by the Spirit of John, Zerubbabel, and Elijah

Neither Elijah or Enoch have died yet.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The bible identifies the 2 witnesses as 2 candlesticks and candlesticks are identified as churches. Rev 11:4, Rev 1:20.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches.

These 2 witnesses/churches are also resurrected and raptured (Rev 11:11-12) before the first resurrection of Rev 20:4. This would make them the first fruits of the first resurrection.
The 144,000 are also the first fruits of the first resurrection as mentioned in Rev 14:1-5.
These are the only 2 references of first fruits that will be resurrected and raptured just before the first resurrection.
Jesus is first fruits of the Spring harvest. (Unleavened Bread)
Christians are the first fruits of the Summer harvest. (Pentacost)
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are the 144,000 who will be the first fruits of the Fall harvest. (Tabernacles)

The 2 witnesses are also 2 olive trees. Rev 11:4. Olive trees are symbolic of the houses of Israel and Judah in Jer 11:16-17 and as the nation of Israel in Romans 11:24-25. The 144,000 consists entirely of the 12 tribes of Israel. Rev 7:4-8.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses are 2 churches comprised of these 144,000 Israeli members.
Two different time frames. The 144k are on earth at a different time the 2 witnesses are. The 2 witnesses may be present during the final harvest, but the 144k are in the final harvest with Jesus Christ. The 2 witnesses are in Jerusalem for 42 months, while the 144k are on Holy mount Zion. The 144k are literal and explained. The 2 witnesses are literal and described with symbolism. They are not the symbolism itself. John did not say 2 candlesticks are the two witnesses. Then go on to explain what the two candlesticks are. John never explains the symbolism. Many try to explain the symbolism. Since obviously many add to the thoughts John does give, and none of them agree with each other, only when it actually happens will it make sense, why the symbolism was not explained.

Even in the OT the 2 olive trees and the 1 candlestick, could be 2 Israelites, but not 1 church member. It was Christ Himself. It could be there are 4 witnesses. The candlesticks are still 2 church members in Christ. But 2 or 4 does not symbolize the entire church body, nor Israelite nation. Still only 2 or 4 total witnesses as relates to either reference. And the two witnesses in the OT reference were named. It was not the split kingdom. Still trying to turn the number into a multitude. The 2 witnesses were taken out of the multitude for a particular purpose. Even John, the author of the book of Revelation was a literal witness throughout the book, and was also, both from the OT as an Israelite, and part of the NT church. He was both an olive tree, and a candlestick as you pointed out.

The candlesticks did represent the 7 churches, so there is some explanation. Still does not mean 2 should indicate an undefined amount. That is the issue with 1000 in Revelation 20. Making 2 and 1000 anything other than 2 and 1000, is a private interpretation.
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,284
581
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
BTW Moses’ body died, but he’s not taking a dirt nap with his body - because he visited Jesus on the mount of transfiguration - but having died physically already, he is disqualified from being one of the two witnesses, who both die
Just because Moses wrote his own epitaph, does not mean he died. He also told them to not go looking for any body. Since no body was given to Satan to place in sheol, Moses could have been translated just like Enoch, or rode to heaven in the same chariot Elijah did. We were never told, "the rest of the story". It also states Moses was in perfect health. He was punished, unable to go any further into the blessings of the Promised land. He was never sentenced to die. His body was already changing on Mt. Sinai. They had to cover his face to hide the brilliance from being with God. IMO, I think Enoch and Elijah are the same person. Elijah was named as a tishbite. The word means sojourner. I think it was Enoch sent back to earth as Elijah. In fact that Elijah would come more than once. Now Jesus claimed John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, and the disciples seemed to stop wondering. We know John the Baptist was not literally Elijah.

Could it be similar in Revelation to the OT scenario given? Could John have come to this time like Enoch came as Elijah, and could the church have a similar spokesperson like Moses? Who knows? Then there was Joshua and Zerubbabel, 2 totally different named witnesses.