Sola Scriptura 2

[robert derrick]

They stopped the first thread as 'unedifying'. I asked them for their definition of 'unedifying', so that we could avoid being 'unedifying' in their eyes, so that a good thread does not get shut down.

But I have not gotten a response yet. Therefore, to avoid being shut down, I plead with people to do three things:
1. Keep to topic.
2. No personal attacks
3. No cursing.

I normally keep 1 & 3, but I admit I have my own problem with 3, but will nevertheless try to lead the way in not doing so. And I will report others doing so, only so that the thread will not be shut down again. Why? Because it is a very profitable and necessary subject to the gospel of the cross being preached according to the scriptures.

There are two main arguments against Sola Scriptura:

1. Humans are flawed, and so the writers of the Bible were flawed, and so the Bible is flawed.

This is only saying that we all have flawed thinking of God, and so we are only able to flawingly grope around in darkness to find Him, and anyone's flawed perceptions of Him are equally flawed as any others.

I.e. Meaninglessly flawed reasonings and imaginations about God. To each his own. All are flawed and none are true, unless we want to believe it is true. Though flawed.

The Bible is flawingly true. Sometimes.

2. The original manuscripts are not with us anymore, and therefore there is no Sola Scriptura to trust in anymore.

This is the only serious response against Sola Scriptura.

Such people are saying that if the original manuscripts written by the prophets and apostles of God were still with us, then they would believe in Sola Scriptura, as them that did when the original manuscripts existed.

I.e. They believe the writings of the prophets and apostles of God were indeed all Scripture of truth, but those writings are not with us today, as they were truly and originally written.

A. This is walking by sight and not by faith. Except I have the original manuscripts in my hands, so that I can feel them and read them with my own eyes, I will not believe any book as being all Scripture of God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

B. This is a lack of trust in the God of the Bible to have His Word written in paper originally, and then does not ensure that written Word remains on paper today. It is a demand that God have His Word written on paper made into incorruptible tables of stone, so that cannot return to the dust from which they were made.

This is akin to relic worship and seeking after a physical sign to believe in. Desiring to see fire fall from heaven in their sight. (Rev 13)

C. The writings of the Bible, that we have today, prove themselves to be all Scripture of God. They have no self-contradiction, nor error of fact, nor righteousness commanded that is not righteous and true altogether.

Therefore, reducing Scripture of God to debates about manuscripts is an untrustworthy accusation against the God of the Bible, and that His Bible writings, as we have them today, are not truly all Scripture from Him: the writings we have in the Bible today cannot possibly be the written words of His prophets and apostles, because they are not written on the pen and paper they wrote with.

I.e. The God of the Scriptures of old is not the God of the Bible today.

The challenge therefore is to show a true contradiction of the writings in the Bible against themselves, in order to prove that they are not all Scripture of God.

 

[robert derrick]

Sola Scriptura begins with believing the Bible is all Scripture of God.

Once that is confessed, then the confessor knows that all other writings must conform to the writings of the Bible, to be believed as Scripturally true of God.

And so, them that reject Sola Scriptura are rejecting the Bible as being Sola Scriptura.

They therefore reject the Bible as being the sole and final source of authority for Scripture of God.

They separate all Scripture of God given to His prophets and apostles, from the Bible today, by separating the original manuscripts from the paper of today. They claim faith in the God of Scripture, but not in the God of the Bible.

And so, the prophets and apostles of God were Scripture writers indeed, but the copies made by flawed man are not.

I.e. they proclaim faith in the God of Scripture of old manuscripts, but not faith in the God of the Bible on new paper: Sola Scriptura.

However, the only writings of the God of Scripture, by which we believe, are in the Bible. But since the God of the Bible is not the God of Scripture, then we are believing in a God of Scripture, that is not the God of the Bible.

If the God of Scripture of old is not the God of the Bible today, then the beginning of our faith, that begins in the Bible, is not the end of our faith, that concludes elsewhere in traditions believed as from the God of scripture, but not written as such by the God of the Bible:

Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

Even if there were the original manuscripts today, these rejectors of the Bible being Sola Scriptura would be demanding God produce the dead bodies of the prophets and apostles that wrote them: No wonder the devil fought with Michael about the body of Moses.


And yet if the dead body of Moses were produced, they would demand the God of Scripture make them speak and tell us the writings of the Bible are indeed the words they wrote on old manuscripts long ago returned to dust:

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

If any will not hear the truth from the Bible writings, as being Sola Scriptura, then causing the corpse of Moses to tell them so, will not help.

But they certainly do believe the corpse of false tradition speaking to them as an image of the God of Scripture, that is not the God of the Bible:

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The Sola Scriptura response to them that reject the Bible as Sola Scriptura, and the God of the Bible as the God of Scripture is: The Lord rebuke thee.

Mystery Babylon:

How can one claim faith in the God of Scripture as true, and reject the God of the Bible as being all true, while believing the God of Scripture from the Bible?

Sola Scriptura believes the Bible is Sola Scriptura.

Any that reject Sola Scriptura, reject the God of the Bible as the only true God and Saviour of our souls: Jesus Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

God is in control . He inspired the other languages to write the truth . The bible is still and always has been the INSPIRED words of GOD .
The only reason folks want to believe it is flawed , Is cause it warns against sin . And if ones sin is in that book
THEN for sure they want to believe what anyone says , who says its flawed . They need a false peace .
BUT I TELL US ALL before heaven and before earth . THE KJV BIBLE IS accurate. Let all read those bibles
and test all men who do speak .

 

[Heart2Soul]

They stopped the first thread as 'unedifying'. I asked them for their definition of 'unedifying', so that we could avoid being 'unedifying' in their eyes, so that a good thread does not get shut down.

But I have not gotten a response yet. Therefore, to avoid being shut down, I plead with people to do three things:
1. Keep to topic.
2. No personal attacks
3. No cursing.

I normally keep 1 & 3, but I admit I have my own problem with 3, but will nevertheless try to lead the way in not doing so. And I will report others doing so, only so that the thread will not be shut down again. Why? Because it is a very profitable and necessary subject to the gospel of the cross being preached according to the scriptures.

There are two main arguments against Sola Scriptura:

1. Humans are flawed, and so the writers of the Bible were flawed, and so the Bible is flawed.

This is only saying that we all have flawed thinking of God, and so we are only able to flawingly grope around in darkness to find Him, and anyone's flawed perceptions of Him are equally flawed as any others.

I.e. Meaninglessly flawed reasonings and imaginations about God. To each his own. All are flawed and none are true, unless we want to believe it is true. Though flawed.

The Bible is flawingly true. Sometimes.

2. The original manuscripts are not with us anymore, and therefore there is no Sola Scriptura to trust in anymore.

This is the only serious response against Sola Scriptura.

Such people are saying that if the original manuscripts written by the prophets and apostles of God were still with us, then they would believe in Sola Scriptura, as them that did when the original manuscripts existed.

I.e. They believe the writings of the prophets and apostles of God were indeed all Scripture of truth, but those writings are not with us today, as they were truly and originally written.

A. This is walking by sight and not by faith. Except I have the original manuscripts in my hands, so that I can feel them and read them with my own eyes, I will not believe any book as being all Scripture of God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

B. This is a lack of trust in the God of the Bible to have His Word written in paper originally, and then does not ensure that written Word remains on paper today. It is a demand that God have His Word written on paper made into incorruptible tables of stone, so that cannot return to the dust from which they were made.

This is akin to relic worship and seeking after a physical sign to believe in. Desiring to see fire fall from heaven in their sight. (Rev 13)

C. The writings of the Bible, that we have today, prove themselves to be all Scripture of God. They have no self-contradiction, nor error of fact, nor righteousness commanded that is not righteous and true altogether.

Therefore, reducing Scripture of God to debates about manuscripts is an untrustworthy accusation against the God of the Bible, and that His Bible writings, as we have them today, are not truly all Scripture from Him: the writings we have in the Bible today cannot possibly be the written words of His prophets and apostles, because they are not written on the pen and paper they wrote with.

I.e. The God of the Scriptures of old is not the God of the Bible today.

The challenge therefore is to show a true contradiction of the writings in the Bible against themselves, in order to prove that they are not all Scripture of God.

I responded to you in a PM....but I will explain here.
The thread became a Catholic bashing thread and there were 3 or 4 ganged up on Mungo...I put it on lock down because it had been steadily growing worse and worse....and it had been going on for awhile.

 

[Mungo]

@robert derrick
The main arguments against Sola Scriptura are:

1. It is a man made doctrine invented by Protestants in the 16th century and is not found in The Bible.

2. The Bible shows examples of God's word being passed on orally, i.e. not in scripture. Examples were given in the other thread by BreadOfLife.

You and others consistently failed to address these two issues.

Until you address them you are wasting everyone's time.

 

[Addy]

I still maintain that there would be absolutely NO STRIFE if the Catholics would agree NOT to argue
their beliefs with protestants... and vice versa... The strife comes because of the arrogance of one over the other.

It's a free world... BE Catholic.... BE free... we all have the right to choose... but this topic is not only futile...
it is absolutely NON negotiable.... and there will never be resolution.... Catholic theology and protestant theology
are NOT meant to mix... they are oil and water. I do not understand WHY there continues to be this unrealistic idea
that THIS time... things will go better.

Make a nice meal... and invite a Catholic for supper.... Share recipes... share family stories... but keep your beliefs to yourself.
That is how we come together in UNITY. By learning to live and let live.

Mungo... you are one of the FEW people who speak with RESPECT... and I am just returning after some time away... so I have not
seen you get attacked... I am sorry if this has occurred...

I will simply never understand... outside of TRYING to convert and correct us... WHY the CATHOLICS think it is wise or even permissible to "defend their faith" with protestants... YOU might as well pick a Muslim... and see how that goes... It's the exact same thing.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I still maintain that there would be absolutely NO STRIFE if the Catholics would agree NOT to argue
their beliefs with protestants... and vice versa... The strife comes because of the arrogance of one over the other.

It's a free world... BE Catholic.... BE free... we all have the right to choose... but this topic is not only futile...
it is absolutely NON negotiable.... and there will never be resolution.... Catholic theology and protestant theology
are NOT meant to mix... they are oil and water. I do not understand WHY there continues to be this unrealistic idea
that THIS time... things will go better.

Make a nice meal... and invite a Catholic for supper.... Share recipes... share family stories... but keep your beliefs to yourself.
That is how we come together in UNITY. By learning to live and let live.

Mungo... you are one of the FEW people who speak with RESPECT... and I am just returning after some time away... so I have not
seen you get attacked... I am sorry if this has occurred...

I will simply never understand... outside of TRYING to convert and correct us... WHY the CATHOLICS think it is wise or even permissible to "defend their faith" with protestants... YOU might as well pick a Muslim... and see how that goes... It's the exact same thing.

I vote do away with theological doctrines and just share Bible Truths....
When you see a thread title targeting a specific doctrine by whatever denominations you can expect it to become a battle between the different beliefs.

 

[Mungo]

I still maintain that there would be absolutely NO STRIFE if the Catholics would agree NOT to argue
their beliefs with protestants... and vice versa... The strife comes because of the arrogance of one over the other.

It's a free world... BE Catholic.... BE free... we all have the right to choose... but this topic is not only futile...
it is absolutely NON negotiable.... and there will never be resolution.... Catholic theology and protestant theology
are NOT meant to mix... they are oil and water. I do not understand WHY there continues to be this unrealistic idea
that THIS time... things will go better.

Make a nice meal... and invite a Catholic for supper.... Share recipes... share family stories... but keep your beliefs to yourself.
That is how we come together in UNITY. By learning to live and let live.

Mungo... you are one of the FEW people who speak with RESPECT... and I am just returning after some time away... so I have not
seen you get attacked... I am sorry if this has occurred...

I will simply never understand... outside of TRYING to convert and correct us... WHY the CATHOLICS think it is wise or even permissible to "defend their faith" with protestants... YOU might as well pick a Muslim... and see how that goes... It's the exact same thing.

Why not tell Protestants not to argue with Catholics?
Surely one of the purposes of this forum is discuss doctrinal and other issues in which we differ, whether between Protestants and Catholics (or Orthodox) or between various Protestants denominations.
We should be able to do this in a respectful manner

 

[Addy]

I vote do away with theological doctrines and just share Bible Truths....
When you see a thread title targeting a specific doctrine by whatever denominations you can expect it to become a battle between the different beliefs.

In all honesty... I have totally given up on finding any kind of fellowship here... The atmosphere of the forums ( and I say this generally of all forums )... is TOXIC in so many ways.... Christians seem no different than the secular world with how they communicate with one another... and I don't know how NOT to find this offensive. I have returned with NO expectations.. but with this statement comes the reality that I just don't care... I don't care what people believe... I don't care what they think... and I don't care what they say... Perhaps this is the mindset I need to survive in a place like this.

I see all kinds of excuses... to "FIGHT FOR and DEFEND".... but the methods that a large number of people are resorting to makes them no different than a non-believer. There lacks RESPECT... there lacks CONSIDERATION... and there lacks HUMILITY.

Sorry for the UNPLEASANT and NEGATIVE response towards the forums... but it is what it is.

 

[Addy]

Why not tell Protestants not to argue with Catholics?

Did you not see the word VICE VERSA???

 

[Addy]

Surely one of the purposes of this forum is discuss doctrinal and other issues in which we differ, whether between Protestants and Catholics (or Orthodox) or between various Protestants denominations.

This has been going on for the entire year that I have been here... and all that EVER comes of it is STRIFE.... WHY the need to fight about your sacraments and beliefs... with those who have walked away from them??? PRACTICE your faith... LIVE your faith... STOP arguing about it...

You want to think you are the ONE true CHURCH because you were first on the scene then by golly... ENJOY the elevated view of status.
This is all about ARROGANCE.... and sorry but it comes from the Catholic side of things.

Anyways... I really don't CARE... that is my new ATTITUDE.... Have a lovely day... I said my peace... and I stand by my opinion that Catholics and Protestant doctrines should NOT be allowed to happen in NON denominational forums.

 

[Heart2Soul]

In all honesty... I have totally given up on finding any kind of fellowship here... The atmosphere of the forums ( and I say this generally of all forums )... is TOXIC in so many ways.... Christians seem no different than the secular world with how they communicate with one another... and I don't know how NOT to find this offensive. I have returned with NO expectations.. but with this statement comes the reality that I just don't care... I don't care what people believe... I don't care what they think... and I don't care what they say... Perhaps this is the mindset I need to survive in a place like this.

I see all kinds of excuses... to "FIGHT FOR and DEFEND".... but the methods that a large number of people are resorting to makes them no different than a non-believer. There lacks RESPECT... there lacks CONSIDERATION... and there lacks HUMILITY.

Sorry for the UNPLEASANT and NEGATIVE response towards the forums... but it is what it is.

Look in the praise forum, testimony forum, fellowship forum.
The debate forums are open for debate....if only they would debate and not fight.

 

[Mungo]

Did you not see the word VICE VERSA???

Yes I did miss it. Please accept my apologies for that Addy.

 

[Addy]

Yes I did miss it. Please accept my apologies for that Addy.

I don't have an issue with you Mungo... NONE... I suspect in real life... we would be able to sit and break bread together... YOU do not come across as arrogant to me... or I would not continue in corresponding with you... There are others here who are most aggressive... and they seem to justify their bad behaviour with the excuse that they are DEFENDING their faith... This is plain insanity... Like I said... you guys would be more productive sharing your beliefs... and rituals with the Muslims... they might be more receptive.

I am going out for a few hours... a little road trip.... Have a beautiful day...

 

[Truman]

I love it when we talk things through! Lol

 

[Taken]

In all honesty... I have totally given up on finding any kind of fellowship here... The atmosphere of the forums ( and I say this generally of all forums )... is TOXIC in so many ways.... Christians seem no different than the secular world with how they communicate with one another... and I don't know how NOT to find this offensive. I have returned with NO expectations.. but with this statement comes the reality that I just don't care... I don't care what people believe... I don't care what they think... and I don't care what they say... Perhaps this is the mindset I need to survive in a place like this.

I see all kinds of excuses... to "FIGHT FOR and DEFEND".... but the methods that a large number of people are resorting to makes them no different than a non-believer. There lacks RESPECT... there lacks CONSIDERATION... and there lacks HUMILITY.

Sorry for the UNPLEASANT and NEGATIVE response towards the forums... but it is what it is.

True, it is what it is....rooted in history.

TRADITIONS - Have long set the standard FOR; doctrines, the necessities, the directions, the inclusions of vows;
TO: ADHERE TO THE TRADITIONS;
OR: BE Excluded.

Scripture itself speaks
TO TRADITIONS of men: WARNING

Col 2:
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you{/B] through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Scripture itself speaks
TO TRADITIONS of men: ACCEPTABLE

2 Thes 2:
[15] Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Brethren...?
Our...?
Brethren AND Our...ARE;
....JEWS speaking to Jews
Brethren AND Our...ARE:
.....JEWS speaking to NON-Jews, committed
IN Christ.

By word...?
BY Jews IN CHRIST epistle...?

What "WORD" ?
...IS always BASED UPON Gods Word
What "Epistle" ?
...IS Letters always BASED UPON Gods Word.

POINT BEING
TRADITION of men... IS ACCEPTABLE
....WHEN it IS based on Gods Word
TRADITION of men ... NOT ACCEPTABLE
....WHEN it IS based on a WORD other than CHRIST


The "Catholic church" SPLIT...10 hundreds
OVER, multiple issues. Primarily;
Leadership and Philosophical TRADITIONS.
Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics.

Another "Catholic Church" SPLIT..15 hundreds
Charges leveled Toward the "Catholic Church"...Request for Scriptural validation to answer Charges.
NONE then, NONE today. Agree with Catholic Church Position, Acts, Traditions;
or be booted out.

THE "SPLITS" -
Catholics from Catholics.
Protestants from Catholics.

THE "WHYS" inanutshell..."TRADITIONS"!
* Our Philosophy, Our Tradition, We said so.
Agree or "be gone".
* Gods Word, First hand Teachers of Gods Word...God said so, Good enough for me.

* Make your allegience to Christ, rather than man-made Churches and man-made Traditions....

****and the Temple, built by mens hands came Tumbling Down****

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

This has been going on for the entire year that I have been here... and all that EVER comes of it is STRIFE.... WHY the need to fight about your sacraments and beliefs... with those who have walked away from them??? PRACTICE your faith... LIVE your faith... STOP arguing about it...

You want to think you are the ONE true CHURCH because you were first on the scene then by golly... ENJOY the elevated view of status.
This is all about ARROGANCE.... and sorry but it comes from the Catholic side of things.

Anyways... I really don't CARE... that is my new ATTITUDE.... Have a lovely day... I said my peace... and I stand by my opinion that Catholics and Protestant doctrines should NOT be allowed to happen in NON denominational forums.

Only God gives any really profitable increases, but unfortunately too many people are certain they are speaking for God and insist on it too strongly against any opposition. We all need to go back and read and take to heart some of the proverbs God inspired Solomon to write such as...

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger." Prov 15:1

 

[Wrangler]

There are two main arguments against Sola Scriptura:

1. Humans are flawed, and so the writers of the Bible were flawed, and so the Bible is flawed.

Hmmm. I don't think that is an argument against Sola Scriptura. Any argument about Sola Scriptura must juxtapose the corruptions of the Catholic Church.

For instance, there is not this passion that the authors of the Iliad are flawless. This is because no group is claiming superiority to the written version of the story.

Protestants have teachers, those who explain doctrine to the young and newly acquainted. And even most Protestants get information about the Bible from what they hear in sermons. The difference is that one or 2 denominations claim inerrancy - over God's Word.

IMO, one cannot understand the dispute of Sola Scriptura without understanding that.

 

[Mungo]

Hmmm. I don't think that is an argument against Sola Scriptura. Any argument about Sola Scriptura must juxtapose the corruptions of the Catholic Church.

For instance, there is not this passion that the authors of the Iliad are flawless. This is because no group is claiming superiority to the written version of the story.

Protestants have teachers, those who explain doctrine to the young and newly acquainted. And even most Protestants get information about the Bible from what they hear in sermons. The difference is that one or 2 denominations claim inerrancy - over God's Word.

IMO, one cannot understand the dispute of Sola Scriptura without understanding that.

If by claiming "inerrancy - over God's Word" you mean that it contradicts God's word then the Catholic Church does not claim that.

Nor does the Catholic Church claim superiority to God written word, rather the opposite.
Yet this Magisterium [of the Catholic Church] is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant."
(Catechism of The Catholic Church, para 86)

 

[robert derrick]

If by claiming "inerrancy - over God's Word" you mean that it contradicts God's word then the Catholic Church does not claim that.

Nor does the Catholic Church claim superiority to God written word, rather the opposite.
Yet this Magisterium [of the Catholic Church] is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant."
(Catechism of The Catholic Church, para 86)

We are servants to whom we give ourselves to obey, And if we are obeying any traditions, commandment, rule of law, etc...taught for Word of God, and is not supported by Scripture, then we are serving false teachers, who are not servants themselves to the Word of God.

Anyone can make any claim they want as to whom they serve or not, but Scripture is the final authority of just what and who we are serving.

By your words I do not believe you don't care about Scripture, nor do you purposely believe that which plainly contradicts Scripture.

I responded to you in a PM....but I will explain here.
The thread became a Catholic bashing thread and there were 3 or 4 ganged up on Mungo...I put it on lock down because it had been steadily growing worse and worse....and it had been going on for awhile.

Fair enough. I ceased using any term of religion to describe anyone. I don't have any gripe with anyone's religion.

I only care about Scripture and disputing the truth of Scripture. And so, if I see anyone on this thread Protestant-Baptist-Catholic-bashing, then I will report them, so you can move them away from here and not have to shut down this thread too.

It's the same as moving things completely off topic. It serves no good purpose.