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Some basic Hebrew as it pertains to prophecy

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Retrobyter, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    It has been brought to my attention that many here have access to study helps that give us the basic vocabulary of Greek and Hebrew, but none of the study helps adequately explain how Hebrew works or give us enough grammatical help. Indeed, Hebrew grammar is a MAJOR hinderance to many who study prophecy. Oh, we can discover what a word means and we can even see how it might be used in a sentence, but there seems to be a mystery to Hebrew that isn't easily overcome, even if one is an avid student of Greek.

    Firstly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Hebrew language is an Oriental language. As such, it does not adhere to the left-to-right construction of Western languages. It is read from right to left, instead. Furthermore, all of the letters in the Hebrew alefbet are CONSONANTS! There are no true vowels although "vowel POINTING" was added later to accommodate Westerners attempting to learn Hebrew.

    Also, Hebrew book letters (which are really Aramaic letters) are foreign to Westerners as they little resemble their Western transliterations.

    Speaking of transliteration, which means to change each letter of one language into the letter of the target language that has the same phonetic sound, I will almost exclusively use such transliteration because (a) it makes the letters more readable to Westerners, (b) it puts the Hebrew language into a left-to-right structure, and (c) it negates the need to find a font that everyone can use. On point (c), not everyone has access to the same Hebrew fonts as do others. Various programs that make use of actual Hebrew text will often give the reader a chance to download a font they might suggest and encourage, but not all programs (apps) will use the same font! They had attempted to standardize the various fonts of the world by the Unicode system, but not all companies and their products will use Unicode.

    A major problem is that transliteration schemes are also not standardized. I use a transliteration scheme that is based on that of PC Study Bible 5, which seems to use the least special symbols to convey the same information, although it does use slightly more symbols. Furthermore, not everyone is consistent in their transliteration schemes since it is so arbitrary.

    Regarding the Hebrew letters in the alefbet (or alphabet), many listings of these letters can be found on the Internet. Obviously, I cannot recommend the theology of such a site, but Judaism 101 is an ideal source for background Hebrew. The link to it is http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm.

    Here's a quick listing of the Hebrew letters and how I transliterate them:

    alef = nothing at the beginning of a word, ' (a generic apostrophe) in the middle or at the end of a word
    beit = b
    veit (an undotted bet within a word) = V (I'm not always consistent with this and will frequently write a lowercase v.)
    gimel = g (ALWAYS pronounced as a hard g as in "girl," never a soft g as in "gel.")
    dalet = d
    hei = h
    vav = v (although also often pronounced as a w.)
    zayin = z
    cheit = ch (as in the Scottish word "loch," like "Loch Ness.")
    teit = T
    yod = y
    kaf = k
    khaf (an undotted kaf within a word) = kh (as the hard, guttural ch of the German word "reich.")
    lamed = l
    mem = m
    nun = n
    samekh = c (always a soft c as in "cedar.")
    `ayin = ` (the back apostrophe, usually found to the left of the number 1 on a keyboard.)
    pei = p
    fei (an undotted pei in the middle or at the end of a word) = f
    tsadday = ts
    quf = q
    reish = r (this is like the Spanish, rolled rr.)
    shin (has a dot over the right side of the letter) = sh
    sin (has a dot over the left side of the letter) = s
    tav = t

    I transliterate the vowel pointing also as does the PC Study Bible:

    Farther down on the Judaism 101 page on the Hebrew Alphabet, one will find a table of little dots and lines that are added below or above the alef in red.

    The first symbol, a line drawn under the alef, is a "patach." It sounds like the a in "father," and I transliterate it as "a."
    The second symbol, a "T" drawn under the alef, is a "qamets." It sounds like the "aw" in "saw." I transliterate it as "aa."
    The third symbol, two dots below the alef, is a "tsere." It sound like "ay" as in "hay," and I transliterate it as "ee."
    (Notice that sometimes the tsere is followed by a yod. This changes the pronunciation little, but I transliterate it as "eey.")
    The fourth symbol, three dots in a triangle, is a "segol." It sounds like "eh" in "bed," and I transliterate it as "e."
    The fifth symbol, a single dot under the alef, is a "chireq." It sounds like "ee" in "bee," and I transliterate it as "i."
    The sixth symbol, a dot above and to the left (after) the alef is a "cholem." It sounds like "o" in "row." I transliterate it as "o."
    (Notice that sometimes the vav is added with the dot above it. This is also a cholem with vav. It still sounds like the "o" in "row, and I will transliterate it as "ow.")
    The seventh symbol, three dots like a backslash under the alef is a "qibbuts." "oo" as in "moon." Transliterated "u."
    (The companion symbol, a vav with a dot in the middle of the letter, is a "shureq." It also sound like "oo" in "moon," and I transliterate it as "uw.")
    The eighth symbol, two dots like a colon under the alef is a "sheva," and sounds like a schwa if it's pronounced at all. I usually leave the sheva represented as nothing, but if it is in the middle of a syllable, I might use a dash "-". Very sparsely, I might use an "e" if the pronunciation of the word warrants it.

    The other three symbols in the table are combinations of sheva and a patach, a qamets, or a segol. And, I will represent them as the symbol with which the sheva is paired (a, aa, e).

    That's a start. NOW, for some basics in grammar:
  2. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    So basically what you are saying is that everyone here needs YOU to translate everything that needs to be "re-translated" because the various Bible Tools help sites are not good enough. Yet YOU are the primary one here "re-translating" everything that does not fit your own western mindset. Your very opening statement is false and misleading concerning the massive amount of information that is now available free online. There have already been not a few instances where your renderings have gone against the overwhelming majority of the translators who certainly knew and understood both Hebrew and Greek much in excess of what things you think you know. :)

    What is more important than my nephesh-soul? Is my spirit ever said to be in danger of hell fire? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his nephesh-soul? Perhaps you might begin here by explaining how it is that you came to the conclusion that my soul is nothing more than "a breather" in the following example, (red italics emphasis mine) which you posted in another thread which is linked below from the quote box:

    BDB - Strong's Hebrew Definition for #05315
    05315 // vpn // nephesh // neh'-fesh //
    from 05314 ; TWOT - 1395a; n f
    AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47; 753
    1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being,
    desire, emotion, passion
    1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
    1b) living being
    1c) living being (with life in the blood)
    1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
    1e) seat of the appetites
    1f) seat of emotions and passions
    1g) activity of mind
    1g1) dubious
    1h) activity of the will
    1h1) dubious
    1i) activity of the character
    1i1) dubious

    Can you show me anywhere that any translation or scholar has rendered "nephesh"-soul as "a breather"?
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    Every noun in Hebrew has a gender. It is ALWAYS either masculine or feminine. This has little to do with the gender of the creature or the person associated with the word; however, they may. This is common to some Romance languages, such as Spanish, but what ISN'T so common is that verbs, TOO, have gender, and this gender IS related to the gender of the person doing the action, or receiving the action in passive tense, or being described.

    For the following examples, I using Hebrew For Dummies, by Jill Suzanne Jacobs, MA, on pages 36 and 37. I would recommend this book to anyone who wants to learn Hebrew for both conversational situations and for literary studies. It's listed for $24.99 US, published by Wiley Publishing, Inc., New York:

    Ms. Jacobs writes under the heading "Pinpointing Hebrew verbs,"

    "The Hebrew verb is an amazing animal! Verbs are conjugated in the present tense according to gender (male and female) and number (singular and plural). In the future and past tenses, verbs have gender, number, and person (first, second, or third). In the imperative (command form), you only have three forms to choose from: masculine singular (MS), feminine singular (FS), and plural (P). When you conjugate a verb, it must match gender and number of the subject."

    As such, some pronouns don't need to be included since it is implied in the verb.

    Kotev = He writes.
    Kotevet = She writes.
    Kotviym = They (masculine) write.
    Kotvot = They (feminine) write.

    In the past tense,

    Katavtiy = I wrote.
    Katavta = You (masculine singular) wrote.
    Katavt = You (feminine singular) wrote.
    Katav = He wrote.
    Katvah = She wrote.
    Katavnuw = We (MP/FP) wrote.
    Ktavtem = You (MP) wrote.
    Ktavten = You (FP) wrote.
    Katvuw = They (MP/FP) wrote.

    In the future tense,
    Echtov = I will write.
    Tichtov = You (MS) will write.
    Ticht'viy = You (FS) will write.
    Yichtov = He will write.
    Tichtov = She will write.
    Nichtov = We (MP/FP) will write.
    Ticht'vuw = You (MP/FP) will write.
    Yicht'vuw = They (MP/FP) will write.

    Sometimes, however, personal pronouns are added for emphasis and used as subjects in the sentence. A list from the same book on page 32 can benefit in reading the Hebrew texts of the OT:

    Aniy (MS/FS) = I
    Atah (MS) = You (or Thou)
    At (FS) = You (or Thou)
    Huw' (MS) = He
    Hi' (FS) = She
    Anachnuw (MP/FP) = We
    Atem (MP) = You (or Ye)
    Aten (FP) = You (or Ye)
    Hem (MP) = They
    Hen (FP) = They

    The personal pronouns used as objects can also help:

    Otiy (MS/FS) = Me
    Otchah (MS) = You (or Thee)
    Otach (FS) = You (or Thee)
    Otoh (MS) = Him
    Otah (FS) = Her
    Otanuw (MP/FP) = Us
    Etchem (MP) = You
    Etchen (FP) = You
    Otam (MP) = Them
    Otan (FP) = Them

    And, one more thing: Prepositions

    In Hebrew, some prepositions are attached as prefixes to the words just as are some connectives (v- meaning "and") and articles (h- meaning "the"). Some will stand alone. The word "Al," meaning "on," stands alone. However, the preposition "B-," meaning "with" or "in," is a prefix that attaches to the word it modifies. For instance, the word "b-rit" means "in-cutting" and is the word usually translated as "covenant." "Im" also means "with" but stands alone.
    "Ehl" stands alone and means "to," but the "L-" prefix also means "to." Indeed, the infinitive form of a verb attaches the "L-" prefix to the basic verb.
    "Min" is the preposition meaning "from," and it stands alone, but it also has a "M-" prefix form that also means "from."

    Let's look at the word in Hebrew for "flesh" or "meat." It's the word "basaar." Remember, though, that Hebrew letters are JUST THE CONSONANTS,

    "B-S-R." It is spelled "beit-sin-reish," with a "patach" under the "beit," and a "qamets" under the "sin" for vowel pointing. So, when one wants to say "from flesh," he would attach the prefix "M-" to "BSR" and write "mibsaar" (MBSR), the vowel pointing changing to accommodate the added letter. The original word is pronounced "bah-SAWR" but the new word is pronounced "MEE-buh-SAWR," since the new vowel pointing is a "chireq" under the "meim," a "sheva" under the "beit," and a "qamets" under the sin.
  4. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    It is not just a prefix "M-" as you suggest but rather "M-" which is a form of the particle "min" as already stated:

    From a quick and simple Google search to show that the particle "min" is indeed what is in question here:

    1QS 9 4 [Qumran]
    From: Chazon Esther
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: "min" in 1QS 9,4
    Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 09:51:00 PST
    Encoding: 104 TEXT
    X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0
    Jacob Licht interprets "min" in 1QS 9 4 comparatively as "more advantageous
    than" sacrifices. His commentary to the Community Rule is still one of the
    best around and is now being reprinted by Bialik Press, Jerusalem.
    I have used Licht's commentary to prepare a small English anthology, "Prayers
    from Qumran: Issues and Methods" (SBL 1993 Seminar Papers).
    Esther Chazon
    Associate Director, Orion Center
    Hebrew University

    REPLY FROM: Chazon Esther
    Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:06:56 +0100
    To: [email protected]
    From: (Kaare Sigvald Fuglseth)
    Subject: "min" in 1QS 9,4
    Precedence: bulk
    Reply-To: [email protected]
    To the Orion DSS discussion list:
    I am interested in commentaries on 1QS 9:3-5, particularly the discussion
    concerning the min in mibbasar (line 4 b ). Recent literature as
    Charlesworth (1994) and Martinez (1994) think that the min is to be
    translated "without" indicating rejection of the temple of Jerusalem. Is
    this an accepted translation today? Why? Do you know if anyone has been
    commenting on this passage lately?
    min in mibbasar and mehelbe in 1 QS 9:4 is translated:
    a ) Source: "by means of", Wernberg-M=F8ller (1957:35) or "gr=E2ce =E0" Carm=
    and Guilbert (1961:60), "=E0 partir de", Milik cf. Carmignac (1956:524).

    b ) Rejection: "without" by Mart=EDnez (1994:13), Knibb (1987:138), Vermes
    (1987:74), Charlesworth (1994:39); Dupont-Sommer and Philonenko using
    "sans" (1987:34).
    c ) Comparison: "paa en bedre maate end" =3D "in a better way than",
    Nielsen/Otzen (1959:85), Lohse (1971:33), and Pouilly has "plus que"
    Carmignac (1956:524) points also to the following authors who understand
    the min as comparison: van der Ploeg, Lambert, Brownlee, Schubert, Bardtke,
    Molin, Dupont-Sommer, Verm=E8s and Burrows. Several of them must have change=
    their views, e.g. Verm=E8s and Dupont-Sommer.



    BDB - Strong's Hebrew Definition for # 04480
    04480 // Nm // min // min // or
    // ynm // minniy // min-nee' // or
    // ynm // minney (constructive pl.) // min-nay' // ( Isa 30:11 )
    from 04482 ; TWOT - 1212,1213e
    AV - among, with, from, that not, since, after, at, by, whether; 25
    1) from, out of, on account of, off, on the side of, since, above,
    than, so that not, more than
    1a) from (expressing separation), off, on the side of
    1b) out of
    1b1) (with verbs of proceeding, removing, expelling)
    1b2) (of material from which something is made)
    1b3) (of source or origin)
    1c) out of, some of, from (partitively)
    1d) from, since, after (of time)
    1e) than, more than (in comparison)
    1f) from...even to, both...and, either...or
    1g) than, more than, too much for (in comparisons)
    1h) from, on account of, through, because (with infinitive)
    2) that

    Original Strong's Ref. #4480
    Romanized min
    Pronounced min
    or minniy {min-nee'}; or minney (constructive plural) {min-nay'}; (Isa.30v11); for HSN4482; properly, a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses (as follows):
    KJV--above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

    The author of Job is simply not stating what you and others have attributed to him.
    And to base the resurrection of your flesh on such a questionable passage as this is "inventive" to say the least . . . :)
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, daq.

    Ahem. See above in blue.

    Furthermore, all of the following versions record that...

    (the man's body of dust) + (the LORD God's breath of life) --> (a living being/creature/person; a living NEFESH or NEPHESH!)

    If he breathed once, would that have been enough to call him living? Would he have been a person or a creature (a created being) or a being if he wasn't consistently breathing on his own?

    Genesis 2:7
    7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then Adonai, God, formed a person [Hebrew: adam] from the dust of the ground [Hebrew: adamah] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 The time came when the Lord God formed a man's body from the dust of the ground and breathed into it the breath of life. And man became a living person.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then the LORD God took dust from the ground and formed a man from it. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nose, and the man became a living person.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then the LORD God formed a man. He made him out of the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into him. And the man became a living person.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 Then the Lord God formed a mand from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    Genesis 2:7
    7 And Jehovah God formeth the man — dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

    Furthermore, animals, too, are said to be "creatures that breathe":

    Genesis 1:20-30
    20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature (NEPHESH) that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
    21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (NEPHESH) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
    23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (NEPHESH) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
    29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
    30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life (NEPHESH), I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

    Why is that such a hard thing for you to accept? Don't choke on the camel swatting at a gnat!

    Oh, and by the way, animals are also said to have "a spirit" (Hebrew: ruach). For instance, Ecclesiastes 3:21.
  6. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Why is it so hard for the natural man to believe that he is not his body? You are not your body Retrobyter. You are a treasure in an earthen vessel and your body is merely the earthen vessel in which your nephesh-soul resides, (in the blood which flows through the body). The Master clearly states this to be the case when he states the following:

    Luke 12:4-5 KJV
    4. And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, [GSN#4983 soma] and after that have no more that they can do.
    5. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    Matthew 10:28 KJV
    28. And fear not them which kill the body, [GSN#4983 soma] but are not able to kill the soul: [GSN#5590 psuche] but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul [GSN#5590 psuche] and body [GSN#4983 soma] in hell.

    GSN#5590 psuche-soul is the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew HSN#5315 nephesh-soul.

    Original Strong's Ref. #5590
    Romanized psuche
    Pronounced psoo-khay'
    from GSN5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from GSN4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from GSN2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew HSN5315, HSN7307 and HSN2416):
    KJV--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

    HSN#2416 chay-life = GSN#2198 zao-alive - GSN#2222-zoe-life
    HSN#5315 nephesh-soul = GSN#5590 psuche-soul
    HSN#7307 ruwach-spirit = GSN#4151 pneuma-spirit

    If one does not hold to these exact corresponding counterparts where they are found then he or she will create and suffer the consequences of unnecessary confusion when traversing between the Testaments. Paul clearly holds to these words with their meanings where he quotes from Genesis 2:7 and likewise if one investigates the Septuagint version of Genesis 2:7 the same will be found:

    1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
    45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living [GSN#2198 zao] soul; [GSN#5590 psuche] the last Adam was made a quickening spirit [GSN#4151 pneuma].

    Genesis 2:7 KJV
    7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living [HSN#2416 chay] soul [HSN#5315 nephesh].

    Genesis 2:7 TUA
    7. Wayiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adamlnepesh chayah.

    When you state that "nephesh" is merely "a breather" you are making the suggestion that a man is nothing more than his carnal body which does the breathing for him in the natural world, (whether you know it or not). However, the man created from the dust of the 'adamah is not his physical body but rather, according to the Scripture, he is a chay-nephesh, zao-psuche, living-soul made from dust taken "out from" (the particle HSN#4480 "min") the 'adamah. :)
  7. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    daq at the first resurrection our souls will be clothed upon with a new body, one like the Lord received at His resurrection.
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, gentlemen.

    Actually, neither of you are totally correct. A person is INCOMPLETE WITHOUT his body. The soul is not separate from the body as a spirit may be. We are NOT three parts in one; we are TWO parts into the ONE. We are the body (Hebrew: geviya'; Greek: sooma) combined with the Breath of God (Hebrew: ruach; Greek: pneuma). Together, they form the soul (Hebrew: nefesh; Greek: psuchee).

    When you see a passage of Scripture that talks about a man's "soul," realize that it is talking about the man's WHOLE BEING, body and spirit, as one! When you can see that, you will suddenly realize which verses are talking about AFTER THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST (JUSTIFIED). A person before the resurrection is just a disembodied spirit. AFTER the resurrection, he is COMPLETE again! He becomes a SOUL, a living, breathing (or blasting) being!

    Let's look at some examples:

    Exodus 1:5

    5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

    How can a soul that is defined as something immaterial as a spirit "come out of the loins" of someone? Does that make any sense?

    Leviticus 7:21
    21 Moreover the soul that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the Lord , even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

    How can a soul that is defined as being immaterial "touch ANY thing, let alone an unclean thing?"

    Leviticus 17:15
    15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.

    How can a soul EAT anything if it is immaterial? No, the soul is the combination of the spirit and the body, and the body eats what the spirit controls the body to eat.

    Hebrews 4:12
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    What this verse is saying is that the Word of God is able to separate the spirit from a person's soul, just like a two-edged sword may do!

    James 5:19-20
    19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    If one points out the error of a sinner's path and turns him around, he has saved that individual's life and diverted him from a path that would produce a multitude of sins or crimes!

    1 Peter 3:20
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The ark that Noach built was able to save only eight lives from the waters of the Flood!

    Revelation 16:3
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

    Every living creature in the sea will die from lack of oxygen, particularly those creatures which must surface to breathe!

    Revelation 18:13
    13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

    This is talking about both slavery and the trafficking of human lives!

    Revelation 20:4
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    This verse is showing that these persons who had been beheaded are LIVING AGAIN! They've already been RESURRECTED! Their bodies are back together with their spirits, even though those bodies are their new, supernatural bodies.

    When one gets a right perspective on what a "soul" is and how it relates to the "spirit" and the body, it makes all the difference in the world how passages should be understood! It makes them clearer, easier to understand, and MUCH simpler than all the gobbledegook that some people's theology tout.

    One can get the same clarity of thought about other matters as well, like when one understands that "heaven" is the "sky" and usually refers to just the air we breathe, the atmosphere in which the birds fly, or the lights we see in the sky at night because the light penetrates that atmosphere!
  9. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    I saw your post earlier and thought since it really was not on topic I would wait and see what the OP had to say. :)

    This is the main passage having to do with the comments from ENOCH2010 above because it is the only place where the term "first resurrection" is found. However, you have injected so much of your own theology into the passage it seems not even worth the attempt to address anyone who would do such a thing. "Their bodies are back together with their spirits"??? :huh: Honestly it is difficult to imagine how one thinks that he sees such things when they are nowhere to be found.

    ENOCH2010, yes indeed, the same GSN#5590 "psuche" is employed there:

    Revelation 20:4 TUA
    4. Kai eidon thronous kai ekathisan ep autous kaikrima edothe autois, kai tas psuchas ton pepelekismenon dia ten marturian Iesou kai dia ton logon tou Theou kai hoitines ou prosekunesan to therionoude ten eikona autou kai ouk elabon to charagma epito metopon kai epi ten cheira auton. Kai ezesankai ebasileusan meta tou Christou chilia ete.

    Original Strong's Ref. #1223
    Romanized dia
    Pronounced dee-ah'
    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):
    KJV--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause)...fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with(-in). In composition it retains the same general import. #Dia. See GSN2203.

    Revelation 20:4-6 KJV
    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls [GSN#5590 psuche] of them that were beheaded [pelekizo] for [GSN#1223 dia-through] the witness of Jesus, and for [GSN#1223 dia-through] the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    So then if you freely admit that you must necessarily be "beheaded" (pelekizo-truncated) dia-through the Testimony of Yeshua and dia-through the Word of God, (so as to put on the mind of Messiah and make him your new Head) the what are you waiting for? Get busy; for this is the will of God, even your sanctification, (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 KJV). Chop! Chop! :)
  10. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    daq I don't think it is necessary to be beheaded to be counted among the souls that surround the throne, that group are the ones that endure to their end and are beheaded for the word of God, not bowing to the antichrist. I think accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior gets me included in that number if I die before the end times. There is nothing I can do to add to the gift the Lord gave me, if I could live my life studying the torah and finish my life sinless, that still wouldn't add anything to what the Lord has already gave me. So this allegorical way you have of interpreting the Bible is useless.
  11. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Sorry for your left-handed-euonumos luck but that was not my interpretation:

    Matthew 5:29-30 KJV
    29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

    Matthew 18:7-9 KJV
    7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
    8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

    Mark 9:43-49 KJV
    43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    49. For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

    Zechariah 11:15-17 KJV
    15. And the Lord said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
    16. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land,
    [the man is the land] which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
    17. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

    Matthew 16:24-27 ~ Then said Yeshua unto his talmidim; If any man will come after me, let him utterly disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his psuche-soul shall apollumi-destroy it: and whosoever will apollumi-destroy his psuche-soul for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own psuche-soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his psuche-soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    The Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy . . . :)
  12. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    United States
    Shalom, daq

    I'm doing my best to reach through to you before you've entirely wandered away from the simple truths of the Bible. I love you and all my brothers and sisters who, like you, are so tied to analogy and the fictitious house of cards that has been built in the years leading up to our day.

    We never should have gotten so far afield. We never should have forgotten the simple message of a LITERAL RESURRECTION. Our Lord Yeshua` was raised from the dead and came back to life in His literal body - transformed, to be sure, but still His literal, physical body! Death is swallowed up in Victory!

    We who name the name of Christ or the Messiah should have NEVER started talking about "going to Heaven when we die." It's the wrong message. This was NEVER what we were to anticipate! We were told to anticipate the RESURRECTION of our bodies! We were told to anticipate the Lord's Return and His reign upon the earth! We were told to anticipate a New Earth that gets back to the First Earth and the Gan Eden before the Fall! We were told to anticipate a perfect reign forever and ever under the Sovereign Rule of YHWH Eloheinu haEl Elyon! Nothing else matters! Nothing else is reality!

    Matthew 6:31-33
    31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
    32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
    33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Genesis 15:5-6
    5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Deuteronomy 6:22-25
    22 And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes:
    23 And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers.
    24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
    25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

    Psalm 9:7-10
    7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: he hath prepared his throne for judgment.
    8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
    9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.
    10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

    Psalm 71:13-19
    13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
    14 But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.
    15 My mouth shall shew forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof.
    16 I will go in the strength of the Lord God: I will make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only.
    17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
    18 Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.
    19 Thy righteousness also, O God, is very high, who hast done great things: O God, who is like unto thee!

    Psalm 72:1-5
    1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
    2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
    3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
    4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
    5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

    Psalm 98:1-9
    1 O sing unto the Lord a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
    2 The Lord hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
    3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
    4 Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise.
    5 Sing unto the Lord with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
    6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the Lord, the King.
    7 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
    8 Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together
    9 Before the Lord; for he cometh to judge the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity.

    Isaiah 11:1-16
    1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
    10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
    13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
    14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
    15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
    16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

    Isaiah 51:1-8
    1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
    2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.
    3 For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.
    4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
    5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
    6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
    8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

    Jeremiah 23:5-8
    5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    6 In his days Judah shall be saved (rescued; delivered), and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (YHWH TSIDQEENUW).
    7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
    8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

    Jeremiah 33:14-18
    14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
    15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
    16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness (Hebrew: YHWH Tsidqeenuw).
    17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
    18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

    Micah 7:9
    9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.

    Zechariah 8:7-8
    7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
    8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

    Malachi 4:1-2
    1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

    Matthew 5:3-10
    3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
    6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
    7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
    8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
    9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
    10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Luke 1:67-79
    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
    76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
    77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
    78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
    79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

    Acts 17:29-32
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
    30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
    31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
    32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    1 Corinthians 15:35-54
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    2 Corinthians 5:1-21
    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
    12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
    13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
    14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
    15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
    16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Hebrews 1:8-9
    8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Hebrews 11:35
    35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

    2 Peter 3:10-13
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    John 5:19-34
    19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
    33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
    34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

    The resurrection of our bodies will be every bit as literal and as real as the resurrections that Yeshua` made for El`aazaar (Lazarus), Yaa'ir's (Jairus') daughter, and the son of the widow woman. They will be just as real as those resurrections that God made through the service of His prophets Eliyahu and Elishah. These were ALL literal, bodily resurrections demonstrating the POWER of God!

    Romans 8:12-39
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he (the Son) might be the firstborn among many brethren (US).
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
  13. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    This is irrelevant to the conversation and has nothing to do with me because the truth, having already been shown to you from the Scripture, is that Yeshua was IN HEAVEN even before going to the Cross; being BORN FROM ABOVE from the day of his immersion. You disagreed, stated that one of the passages I quoted, (among many) was controversial and does not say what it says, then advised me to "get your head out of the clouds". You do not understand because you are the one looking for a future resurrection of your flesh after physical death. Your "helpmate" is deceived; you are allowing her to do your thinking for you, and she is likewise deceiving you, (she can only be "saved" through child birth because that is the only way that the flesh can continue). Physical death is not even recognized in the New Covenant writings because Yeshua emphatically states that "the flesh profits nothing" and therefore all of the New Covenant authors adhere to the teaching of the Master. If you refuse to believe the Testimony of Yeshua then you cannot possibly understand those who do. Olam Haba occurs in this life because the Promise is given before physical death so that we may live it. The entire reason that we may enter Olam Haba now, as the days of heaven upon the earth, (once again see Deuteronomy 11:21 KJV which is fulfilled in Revelation 21) is because of the work of Messiah at the Cross. However, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God as you have quoted. There are prerequisites to receiving the Promise regardless of what the modern shepherds teach:

    Romans 12:1-2 KJV
    1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

    1 Thessalonians 4:1-7 KJV
    1. Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
    2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
    3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
    4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
    5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
    6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
    7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

    Hebrews 10:36-39 KJV
    36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
    37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
    38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

    39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    If you will not do the will of God to cut off sin and MORTIFY the deeds of the body then you cannot receive the Promise.

    How then is it true that Messiah is the firstborn of every creature and firstborn from the dead?

    Colossians 1:15-18 KJV
    15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    How is it that Messiah is the firstfruits of them that slept?

    1 Corinthians 15:20-23 KJV
    20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    Even if someone else told you the answer to this again you would still not believe it because it destroys your fleshly paradigm. It has already been explained more than once even down to the six hours of the crucifixion of Messiah which are the same six hours of the new creation accomplished in the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world:

    The first Adam of Genesis 2 is of the dust of the 'adamah and became a LIVING SOUL.
    The second Adam of Genesis 1 is from heaven and a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT.
    But why should one repeat this to you? The watchers are watching! :lol:
  14. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Lo' shalom, daq.

    Sorry, but there's just too much on which we disagree not to break this up; therefore, my words are in light purple:

  15. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    So that everyone else is on the same page when you say "Lo' shalom, daq" it means "No peace, daq" and though we both know this it should be known to all since it is so offensive. Secondly who gave you the right to control not only your own threads but the threads of everyone else in the eschatology board? You can obviously "dish it out" but apparently you cannot receive what you are willing to continually give out to others. You are neither God, nor the owner of this site, neither even are you a moderator. Your elitist thinking of your high and mighty self is bursting through your thin veneer of a false and feigned love of the brethren:

    And how many times have I asked you to leave me alone in my own threads since we obviously come from two different perspectives? But you cannot because your gigantic inflated ego simply will not allow you to leave the last word to anyone who disagrees with you. Therefore I feel no compulsion whatsoever to allow you to continue spreading lies in the name of Scripture as well as lies against myself or anyone else. I have every right to be here just as much as you or anyone else so long as we follow the rules and the owner of this site allows us to be here.

    John 3:13 KJV
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    The Scripture is not a lie but you are an offense to the Scripture for saying such a thing.

    I do not speak from the flesh as you do. Whether you are married in the physical or not you have a wife-helpmate which is your flesh and she is deceived just as was Eve. There is neither male nor female in Messiah so then if you have a physical wife in the natural world then she is in the same condition as all the rest of mankind and likewise has been given the opportunity to become a son. I owe her no apology because I spoke according to the Scripture to you and you alone. Again, the man is not his body but a living soul. :)

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    What a sight to see a man who fancies himself to be so wise reduce himself to comic strip buffoonery and "Du-du-du"-ery!

    Isaiah 14:16-19 KJV
    16. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17. That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
    18. All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
    19. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

    Isaiah 66:22-24 KJV
    22. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
    24. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

    You yourself have not rightly divided the word. Paul clearly teaches that there are different kinds of "flesh" and you clearly have fallen in love with the wrong genos-kind. Likewise the Master already told you that the flesh profits nothing. So much for that stinking carcass of the Cherub of the flesh which you love so much; she will not be going with you: for they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; neither can they die any more: for they are equal to the messengers; and are the sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection. :)

    That "awesome simplicity and frank truthfulness of the Bible" is absolutely true and exactly where I was about thirty years ago. Everything I have shared since coming here to this forum is built upon that same foundation though I do not feel compelled to redress all of those things for the next thirty years. However, in the place where you are with this now you are still more blind than I was thirty years ago. I honestly did not think that was possible because I sure was a double blind Bartimaeus son of Timaeus and a son of Talmai the son of Anak. Thank you heavenly Father for putting that part of me to death! :)
  16. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    Roy I don't think daq believes any of the Bible as it was written, a person can make the Bible say anything they want, if they change what it says to some mystical writing that only certain people can decipher. He thinks he is one of the group that has some kind of special knowledge that enables him to decipher scripture correctly while everybody else is wrong.
  17. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Enoch.

    Yes, I agree. He wearies me with his CONSTANT harangue and allegorical teaching and put-downs; he's angered me for the last time, though. I've enjoyed this forum, but I'm in the process of getting a book written and don't really have time for all the rebuttals necessary in trying to deal with him. HE WASTES MY TIME because he doesn't listen, and I have nothing left to say to him. The only real reason I have butted heads with him is to help others who might be duped by his "special glasses that help him to read the golden tablets." I don't want them to get hooked on his eisegesis.

    I feel like IF I have the time to post on one of these forums again, it'll have to be some place new. I'm not going to be insane anymore. You know the definition of insanity, right? It's "doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results?" Well, I'll admit that I've been insane to cross swords with him. "Jesus' body dissolved on the wind." Really.

    If he was really like us 30 years ago, then he's had 30 years to MIRE himself in this ... MUCK he calls teaching. And, people BELIEVE him and think he's a "great teacher!" "Oooh! I'll have to think about that one!" Gimme a break! I'll keep my link open to this site and I'll stay in touch and let you know what I'm doing and where I've gone for other places actually to DISCUSS the Scriptures instead of the ENDLESS DEBATES, but I'm weary of this place because of this constant battle with the allegorical method of interpretation, the eisegetical attack on the Scriptures, and the constant NONSENSE of it all.

    Good luck to you, or rather, Good Providence to you. I hope that the Ruach haQodesh Eloheinu (the Holy Spirit of our God) gets a hold on him, but I'm not holding my breath.
  18. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Hypocrites! :lol:

    It is you who has constantly attacked me since I first arrived here, beginning with my first thread posted in this Eschatology Board called "Desolating Abomination" where you and your friends including "one of the two witnesses" ganged up to destroy the thread by turning it into an argument pitting brethren against brethren, opinion against opinion, and ego against ego. You did the same in "Harpazo-Rapture Saulos-Paulos" and likewise again you have now done the same in the thread called "Yeshua Says" out of nothing but sheer spite and bitterness. I only have one other thread here in Eschatology but how many of your threads have I even entered into aside from this one? Your father has taught you to make your points in the same way that Islam proves its case; which is by lifting your hand with a hatchet, a machete, or a sword, and destroying your opposition by cutting off his voice.

    ... and now soon to be peddling your new book full of food sacrificed to idols . . . :lol:
  19. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    Instead of Mormonism, it sounds like the Gnostics to me, didn't they claim some kind of special knowledge, that only they knew the true Word of God?
  20. daq

    daq HSN#1851

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    Whatever label fits for the moment so long as you can use it to mark your enemy and single him out from the herd for destruction, (your forefathers from WWII appear to have taught you well). However, one of the most notable Gnostic adherents was a man by the name of Marcion that held in his private "canon" all of the Epistles of Paul and the Gospel of Luke. He believed in the "Old Testament God" but believed that he was the Creator of all evil and therefore not to be trusted. Marcion rejected all of Torah and Tanak and held only to a "New Testament Canon", (obviously) and likewise cut out every reference or Scripture quote from Tanak found in the Epistles of Paul. He was much like you and your friend here which apparently do not accept any of Torah or Tanak as applying to yourselves; likewise I suspect that you also, as Marcion the Gnostic heretic, do not believe that the Epistles of Peter, James, or Hebrews apply to you either. If anyone here is a Gnostic it is you. Retrobyter appears to consider himself a partial Preterist who thinks that this means he is somehow not a Dispensationalist. However, the only difference between Preterism and Dispensationalism is timing: the flesh-minded "Futurist" puts the end of Torah at the cross whereas the flesh-minded "Preterist" prefers to place the end of Torah in 70AD with the destructing of physical Jerusalem; yet anyone who does such things, regardless of timing, ignores the warnings and clear statements of Messiah concerning Torah. :)