Soulwinning vs Proselytizing

[robert derrick]

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Winning souls to Christ is by two ways:

Living for Christ blamelessly and harmlessly, and having the ready answer for when any should ask you why: Jesus.

Being ready to help a sinner in time of need, to be delivered from their sins, and help restore one that is fallen that desires to repent.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Proselytizing is the secretive art of hypocrisy: putting on a show of friendship, neighborliness, and care for a person, with the sole purpose of trying to get them converted to your way of thinking.

There is nothing genuine about it, and it is only for hope of 'reward'.

The former is a winning life with a helpful hand in time of the need.

The other is a mechanism of recruitment for profit.

The wolves in sheep's clothing are the proselytizers who come with a smile on the face and a dagger in the heart:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

One can always tell the spirit of a hypocrite. There is always a greasiness to their 'winning' ways. They just ooze care for you out their pores.

Honest and sincere people don't try to hide their true agenda for affecting you to themselves:

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Winning souls to Christ is by two ways:

Living for Christ blamelessly and harmlessly, and having the ready answer for when any should ask you why: Jesus.

Being ready to help a sinner in time of need, to be delivered from their sins, and help restore one that is fallen that desires to repent.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Proselytizing is the secretive art of hypocrisy: putting on a show of friendship, neighborliness, and care for a person, with the sole purpose of trying to get them converted to your way of thinking.

There is nothing genuine about it, and it is only for hope of 'reward'.

The former is a winning life with a helpful hand in time of the need.

The other is a mechanism of recruitment for profit.

The wolves in sheep's clothing are the proselytizers who come with a smile on the face and a dagger in the heart:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

One can always tell the spirit of a hypocrite. There is always a greasiness to their 'winning' ways. They just ooze care for you out their pores.

Honest and sincere people don't try to hide their true agenda for affecting you to themselves:

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

Jesus' disciples are basically seed planters Rob. Our assignment is to go and make disciples by teaching them all the things Jesus commanded. Mat 8:19,20. It is the word that they accept or reject. That is why the remainder of what Paul said was that God makes it grow. That is not to say that He accepts or rejects others prejudicedly rather by their heart. The Bible uses the term "rightly disposed" and we have many examples of those who are, as well as those who aren't. Clearly the Ethiopian of Acts 8 was rightly disposed, whereas herod the great (Bible withholds his name) certainly was not. While we pray and greatly desire that all of our seeds fall on good soil, we sadly are aware that most will not take root. But until Jehovah says the work is through, we never give up hope for those individuals. We have many brothers who we would have sworn would never be our brother. The evolution of new ones to mature ones is certainly a beautiful thing to behold sir.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus' disciples are basically seed planters Rob. Our assignment is to go and make disciples by teaching them all the things Jesus commanded. Mat 8:19,20. It is the word that they accept or reject. That is why the remainder of what Paul said was that God makes it grow. That is not to say that He accepts or rejects others prejudicedly rather by their heart. The Bible uses the term "rightly disposed" and we have many examples of those who are, as well as those who aren't. Clearly the Ethiopian of Acts 8 was rightly disposed, whereas herod the great (Bible withholds his name) certainly was not. While we pray and greatly desire that all of our seeds fall on good soil, we sadly are aware that most will not take root. But until Jehovah says the work is through, we never give up hope for those individuals. We have many brothers who we would have sworn would never be our brother. The evolution of new ones to mature ones is certainly a beautiful thing to behold sir.

You are speaking of the honesty and sincerity of ministry. I am showing the darker side of recruitment for personal motives: those who only show themselves neighborly for purpose of conversion. It is not sincere and honest. It is proselytizing vs ministering.

When I first began to go to church willingly, it was by such a group as that. It was run as a business for profit. The preaching was true and sincere, but the 'program' was not. They would 'cover the newcomer with love', to try and get them 'all the way in', until they became workers themselves to do the same with others.

It was called 'soulwinning', but quickly degraded into the 'people business'. The Father's business is not the people business, but the loving people business.

Most ministers seeking full time ministry are not called of God to be His preachers to send into the world, because they have yet to fully succeed in their own lives as commanded in Gen 1: to be fruitful and multiply. That is the first commandment given to man and is in the heart of every person, and ought be accomplished as Christians in the world.

Those who prematurely attempt full time ministry most often then try to satisfy that urge to succeed through ministry, and so are seeking their success in this world at the wrong place and time. They turn the ministry of Christ into a business venture for success.

The beast is a minister who is all about numbers, and wants his number planted on the foreheads of all he comes into contact with.

He is a recruiter into his own business ministry, not a fisher or men and ambassador of God in Christ's stead. He makes himself the head of the body instead of Christ: a personal cult leader.

These are the false christs who say "Come over here with me. This is where you need to be. I'm the one you've been looking for."

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are speaking of the honesty and sincerity of ministry. I am showing the darker side of recruitment for personal motives: those who only show themselves neighborly for purpose of conversion. It is not sincere and honest. It is proselytizing vs ministering.

When I first began to go to church willingly, it was by such a group as that. It was run as a business for profit. The preaching was true and sincere, but the 'program' was not. They would 'cover the newcomer with love', to try and get them 'all the way in', until they became workers themselves to do the same with others.

It was called 'soulwinning', but quickly degraded into the 'people business'. The Father's business is not the people business, but the loving people business.

Most ministers seeking full time ministry are not called of God to be His preachers to send into the world, because they have yet to fully succeed in their own lives as commanded in Gen 1: to be fruitful and multiply. That is the first commandment given to man and is in the heart of every person, and ought be accomplished as Christians in the world.

Those who prematurely attempt full time ministry most often then try to satisfy that urge to succeed through ministry, and so are seeking their success in this world at the wrong place and time. They turn the ministry of Christ into a business venture for success.

The beast is a minister who is all about numbers, and wants his number planted on the foreheads of all he comes into contact with.

He is a recruiter into his own business ministry, not a fisher or men and ambassador of God in Christ's stead. He makes himself the head of the body instead of Christ: a personal cult leader.

These are the false christs who say "Come over here with me. This is where you need to be. I'm the one you've been looking for."

I would agree that virtually everyone who bears testimony to you would desire you to become a spiritual brother in their faith. In fact it is scriptural reasoning. Jehovah chose to include in His word Isa 2:2,3 which you may agree is for our time period, the final part of the days. What that means is, that after the period of apostasy, and Jesus receiving the crown Mat 24:3 we entered into the last days. Those who came to the house of the God of Jacob, would definitely go and say to others come let us go to the house of Jehovah, and we will be instructed in His ways, and walk in His paths. That of course is the goal of every sincere person of God, and although worded differently by Jesus at Mat 28:19 and 20 it is actually the assignment and responsibility of every Christian.

 

[robert derrick]

I would agree that virtually everyone who bears testimony to you would desire you to become a spiritual brother in their faith. In fact it is scriptural reasoning. Jehovah chose to include in His word Isa 2:2,3 which you may agree is for our time period, the final part of the days. What that means is, that after the period of apostasy, and Jesus receiving the crown Mat 24:3 we entered into the last days. Those who came to the house of the God of Jacob, would definitely go and say to others come let us go to the house of Jehovah, and we will be instructed in His ways, and walk in His paths. That of course is the goal of every sincere person of God, and although worded differently by Jesus at Mat 28:19 and 20 it is actually the assignment and responsibility of every Christian.

The problem of course is you appear to be hoping to attain to something, that we today have no access to.

The natural seed of Abraham and natural born children of Israel have no place in the house of God today, except through Jesus Christ.

After His return, and smiting of the nations, including the one called Israel, He will then reign with a rod of iron on the earth, and the generation following His return, like that after the generation falling in the wilderness, will then have opportunity to believe and worship Him face to face.

And them naturally born of Abraham who believe on Him by faith from the heart to obey Him as Lord, will be both circumcised outwardly of flesh and inwardly of Christ, and they will be them serving Him personally on this earth as priests for the nations. That is how Ezek 40-48 will be fulfilled.

It will not include the generation of His return, who are left in unbelief and angry towards Him after the first resurrection of the church, because no man will ever be saved of Him by sight.

Jesus will not be returning to earth and coming down out of heaven with power to 'rescue' the unbelieving and angrily disobedient, who will remain even as their fathers who demanded He come down from the cross, that they might 'believe'.

And so, no man has any such hope in Christ pertaining to the natural seed at this time, nor do they in any generation to come, until the one following His coming again.

And so, we either are saved by Jesus as saints in Christ Jesus, and await His resurrection, or we are lost in sins with every other disobedient unbeliever, whether outwardly circumcised or not.

I.e. our only one hope at this time pertaining to His millennial reign on this earth, is to be resurrected into the air to meet with Him, and then descend with Him in power to smite the nations of the earth, and to reign with Him with rod of iron over them not smitten to death.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Winning souls to Christ is by two ways:

Living for Christ blamelessly and harmlessly, and having the ready answer for when any should ask you why: Jesus.

Being ready to help a sinner in time of need, to be delivered from their sins, and help restore one that is fallen that desires to repent.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Proselytizing is the secretive art of hypocrisy: putting on a show of friendship, neighborliness, and care for a person, with the sole purpose of trying to get them converted to your way of thinking.

There is nothing genuine about it, and it is only for hope of 'reward'.

The former is a winning life with a helpful hand in time of the need.

The other is a mechanism of recruitment for profit.

The wolves in sheep's clothing are the proselytizers who come with a smile on the face and a dagger in the heart:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

One can always tell the spirit of a hypocrite. There is always a greasiness to their 'winning' ways. They just ooze care for you out their pores.

Honest and sincere people don't try to hide their true agenda for affecting you to themselves:

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

I think there are extremes to proselytizing as you presented. Some forms are not really evil though, with good intentions but may be somewhat corrupt.
The flesh gets in the way and wars against the spirit. Our efforts in life towards good are not always pure.

Proselytizing people to Christ can be viewed sometimes as a corrupted form of evangelism where efforts to exploit the vulnerability of the poor to win them over exist.

Evangelism (a more pure form) involves spreading the message of the gospel by any means WITHOUT "strings" attached to their charity. Food, clothing and other help are given with love, not as "bait" to draw people away from their traditional church or religion.
Evangelism should not take advantage of the poor but treat them with respect and dignity.
People can't be manipulated, cohersed or forced to convert. Only God can convert and so they need to respond, make a choice about Christ freely and spiritually from the heart.

Understanding the Gospel Truth is key, otherwise you could be just like the Pharesees.

We see Christians on this forum who are proselytizing each other. "Come join our religion ... our doctrines are sound - our church is orthodox and yours are evil, bla, bla, bla."

 

[robert derrick]

I think there are extremes to proselytizing as you presented. Some forms are not really evil though, with good intentions but may be somewhat corrupt.
The flesh gets in the way and wars against the spirit. Our efforts in life towards good are not always pure.

Proselytizing people to Christ can be viewed sometimes as a corrupted form of evangelism where efforts to exploit the vulnerability of the poor to win them over exist.

Evangelism (a more pure form) involves spreading the message of the gospel by any means WITHOUT "strings" attached to their charity. Food, clothing and other help are given with love, not as "bait" to draw people away from their traditional church or religion.
Evangelism should not take advantage of the poor but treat them with respect and dignity.
People can't be manipulated, cohersed or forced to convert. Only God can convert and so they need to respond, make a choice about Christ freely and spiritually from the heart.

Understanding the Gospel Truth is key, otherwise you could be just like the Pharesees.

We see Christians on this forum who are proselytizing each other. "Come join our religion ... our doctrines are sound - our church is orthodox and yours are evil, bla, bla, bla."

True charity is desire from the heart with no strings attached, nor expectation of reward.

Ezekiel preached out of nothing but love for God and charity to souls, because God told him beforehand they weren't going to listen to His words.

We see Christians on this forum who are proselytizing each other. "Come join our religion ... our doctrines are sound - our church is orthodox and yours are evil, bla, bla, bla.

These are the people who have special rules to themselves, that are required for salvation, so that if someone does not 'convert' to their way of thinking, then they are lost. Sabbath keepers, Acts 2:38 baptizers, Mariologists, etc...

Otherwise, everything is just doctrinal dispute of the Scriptures between believers.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are speaking of the honesty and sincerity of ministry. I am showing the darker side of recruitment for personal motives: those who only show themselves neighborly for purpose of conversion. It is not sincere and honest. It is proselytizing vs ministering.

Well this is true. There are those who seek to gain souls to bring them into their own sect, not so much to Christ alone. But I fear you are attempting to judge the secret motives of peoples hearts. No human can accurately do that.

We see Christians on this forum who are proselytizing each other. "Come join our religion ... our doctrines are sound - our church is orthodox and yours are evil, bla, bla, bla.

And I am convinced based on their learning they may sincerely believe that and are seeking good for those they converse with here. Xome may not- but we cannot know unless God gives us specific revelation. Then our first task is to go to them directly in love and ascertain if our special reevelation was indeed from God or not. and if it was, then our next task is in love and not judgmentalism to show them why this is a wrong way of doing things.

It is always an attempt to reconcile- not to judge and condemn as you are wont to do.

 

[GEN2REV]

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear.

Winning souls to Christ is by two ways:

Living for Christ blamelessly and harmlessly, and having the ready answer for when any should ask you why: Jesus.

Being ready to help a sinner in time of need, to be delivered from their sins, and help restore one that is fallen that desires to repent.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Proselytizing is the secretive art of hypocrisy: putting on a show of friendship, neighborliness, and care for a person, with the sole purpose of trying to get them converted to your way of thinking.

There is nothing genuine about it, and it is only for hope of 'reward'.

The former is a winning life with a helpful hand in time of the need.

The other is a mechanism of recruitment for profit.

The wolves in sheep's clothing are the proselytizers who come with a smile on the face and a dagger in the heart:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

One can always tell the spirit of a hypocrite. There is always a greasiness to their 'winning' ways. They just ooze care for you out their pores.

Honest and sincere people don't try to hide their true agenda for affecting you to themselves:

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

I completely agree.

Also, those who beat people over the head with the Bible that aren't interested in it, or those who go door-to-door, cause the vast majority of the unsaved world to despise Christians and give the faith a really bad name.

They please the enemy greatly.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The problem of course is you appear to be hoping to attain to something, that we today have no access to.

The natural seed of Abraham and natural born children of Israel have no place in the house of God today, except through Jesus Christ.

After His return, and smiting of the nations, including the one called Israel, He will then reign with a rod of iron on the earth, and the generation following His return, like that after the generation falling in the wilderness, will then have opportunity to believe and worship Him face to face.

And them naturally born of Abraham who believe on Him by faith from the heart to obey Him as Lord, will be both circumcised outwardly of flesh and inwardly of Christ, and they will be them serving Him personally on this earth as priests for the nations. That is how Ezek 40-48 will be fulfilled.

It will not include the generation of His return, who are left in unbelief and angry towards Him after the first resurrection of the church, because no man will ever be saved of Him by sight.

Jesus will not be returning to earth and coming down out of heaven with power to 'rescue' the unbelieving and angrily disobedient, who will remain even as their fathers who demanded He come down from the cross, that they might 'believe'.

And so, no man has any such hope in Christ pertaining to the natural seed at this time, nor do they in any generation to come, until the one following His coming again.

And so, we either are saved by Jesus as saints in Christ Jesus, and await His resurrection, or we are lost in sins with every other disobedient unbeliever, whether outwardly circumcised or not.

I.e. our only one hope at this time pertaining to His millennial reign on this earth, is to be resurrected into the air to meet with Him, and then descend with Him in power to smite the nations of the earth, and to reign with Him with rod of iron over them not smitten to death.

Very true sir, all will enter into life through the new covenant, from all tribes nations peoples and tongues. One thing you are not mentioning however is the majority of Christians are the other sheep not of the saintly fold. Those inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. Ps 37:29; Mat 5:5

 

[Wynona]

I think my husband and I were trying to have this discussion the other day.

Better to live a great Godly life and be ready to give an answer for the hope that you have as the primary witness.

I just wonder if that excludes missionary work and street evangelism. Didn't Jesus tell us to go and make disciples of all nations?

 

[GEN2REV]

I think my husband and I were trying to have this discussion the other day.

Better to live a great Godly life and be ready to give an answer for the hope that you have as the primary witness.

I just wonder if that excludes missionary work and street evangelism. Didn't Jesus tell us to go and make disciples of all nations?

Ya know, I've been torn about that for many years.

Most of the Bible, I believe, is written to all Bible readers. But the Great Commission has often seemed like it was more to the Apostles than to every Christian who would ever live. There are verses that show Jesus telling them not to go door to door.

Luke 10:7

And then there's verses stating that nobody can come to God/Jesus anyway without being called.

John 6:44
John 14:6

And of course we are told to be always ready and willing to speak to those who God sends to us about Him. NOT going up to complete strangers to harass them about our religious/spiritual opinions, etc.

1 Peter 3:15

And we're told to strive to live quietly, minding our own business in peace.

1 Thessalonians 4:11

So many verses seem to contradict the modern mainstream christian trend to evangelize everybody and go door to door, etc. But see, here's the problem with that. The enemy loves overzealous christians bugging and offending people everywhere they go. It causes people to hate Christianity and assume God must be ridiculous. And, to be honest, the churches that send people out door-to-door are more concerned with growing their congregation and bringing more money into their church.

In fact, the church has become like a cult in the sense that it's all about THAT particular church. How much are you doing for THIS church? How much of your money are you donating to THIS church? Are you committing yourself and your time to THIS church? Are you falling in line with what we all do here at THIS church? When is it ever about God anymore and when do any of them encourage people to get passionate about their Bibles? Most of them give out modern translation, completely corrupted nonsense version, Bibles as well. There's no real emphasis on God, it's more about the church and fellowshipping with the members of the church, etc.

Evangelism just has a very fraudulent air to it these days. I just really don't see Jesus doing the things many of them do. Would Jesus go around begging people to listen to and believe Him? He knows who His sheep are. And some are Wheat and some are Tares.

 

[robert derrick]

I completely agree.

Also, those who beat people over the head with the Bible that aren't interested in it, or those who go door-to-door, cause the vast majority of the unsaved world to despise Christians and give the faith a really bad name.

They please the enemy greatly.

Like all things complicated by zealous people, God's Word always remains simple:

The main difference between winning souls to Christ and proselytizing is having a good answer to them who ask us vs. going at others with an answer you say they must hear.

The only households Jesus ever went to were the ones He was invited to come to.

 

[robert derrick]

Very true sir, all will enter into life through the new covenant, from all tribes nations peoples and tongues. One thing you are not mentioning however is the majority of Christians are the other sheep not of the saintly fold. Those inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. Ps 37:29; Mat 5:5

The problem of course is that the Psalm you quote is speaking of righteous saints.

The sheep divided from goats are not knowing believers, because they don't know why the Lord is choosing to place them on His right hand.

But I want to hear more of this from you on another thread, or in private.

 

[robert derrick]

Ya know, I've been torn about that for many years.

Most of the Bible, I believe, is written to all Bible readers. But the Great Commission has often seemed like it was more to the Apostles than to every Christian who would ever live. There are verses that show Jesus telling them not to go door to door.

Luke 10:7

And then there's verses stating that nobody can come to God/Jesus anyway without being called.

John 6:44
John 14:6

And of course we are told to be always ready and willing to speak to those who God sends to us about Him. NOT going up to complete strangers to harass them about our religious/spiritual opinions, etc.

1 Peter 3:15

And we're told to strive to live quietly, minding our own business in peace.

1 Thessalonians 4:11

So many verses seem to contradict the modern mainstream christian trend to evangelize everybody and go door to door, etc. But see, here's the problem with that. The enemy loves overzealous christians bugging and offending people everywhere they go. It causes people to hate Christianity and assume God must be ridiculous. And, to be honest, the churches that send people out door-to-door are more concerned with growing their congregation and bringing more money into their church.

In fact, the church has become like a cult in the sense that it's all about THAT particular church. How much are you doing for THIS church? How much of your money are you donating to THIS church? Are you committing yourself and your time to THIS church? Are you falling in line with what we all do here at THIS church? When is it ever about God anymore and when do any of them encourage people to get passionate about their Bibles? Most of them give out modern translation, completely corrupted nonsense version, Bibles as well. There's no real emphasis on God, it's more about the church and fellowshipping with the members of the church, etc.

Evangelism just has a very fraudulent air to it these days. I just really don't see Jesus doing the things many of them do. Would Jesus go around begging people to listen to and believe Him? He knows who His sheep are. And some are Wheat and some are Tares.

And, to be honest, the churches that send people out door-to-door are more concerned with growing their congregation and bringing more money into their church.

The nail you hit on the head is the 'Pastor': the one doing all the sending, not Jesus.

There is a definite line that is crossed in the ministry between the Father's Business and the Pastor's Business.

But the Great Commission has often seemed like it was more to the Apostles than to every Christian who would ever live.

And this is the second head you nail rightly.

The question is: who is called and sent of God by Jesus Christ, and who is called and sent of themselves by man?

The line is between all Christians ministering to one another, and being a witness to all, vs those called of God to full-time ministry.

I believe Scripture shows us a clear line between the two, and it is seen in the answer why Jesus returned with His parents from the temple. Why did He?

And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (Luke 2:40)

He was Christ come in the flesh. He was the Word made flesh. He was the One who made the covenant with Abraham and from Mt Sinai. His Spirit inspired all Scripture of God to ever be written by the prophets of old. He was God that is love in the flesh.

What did He lack? And who sent Him with His parents? He had already rejected Mary's pleadings.

The Father commanded Him to return, and not to go on to full ministry. Why?

And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (Luke 2:51-52)

The answer is simple: Jesus was in full favor with God and wisdom while in that temple showing them as much; however, Jesus the youth had not yet obtained such stature with man.

He had not yet done what every male child of Israel was promised to do like Joshua: by keeping the commandments of the Lord, He would bless them in their business.

What self-respecting working, providing, householding, adult family man and woman want to have some young 'spiritual' upstart try to tell them how to live life for God in an adult world? What would he know about living for God by faith and building a career by work of the hands and mind? Having a job and balancing a checkbook does not a called man of God make.

I.e. Jesus had not yet done what all mankind was first commanded to do on this earth: Be fruitful and multiply. Go and prosper in your business. All people are born with that same commandment of God in their souls, like DNA, which is why mankind does so in a manner that the beasts of the field do not. Whether for evil or good is not the point.

And so, if Jesus needed to go and gain stature and favor with man in order to be prepared to fully minister to man, then certainly so must anyone else.

God calls no person to send into full time ministry that has not yet succeeded to the full in their own lives as Christians: full time ministry is only for them that are ready to retire from their business.

Premature preachers are them that still have the first commandment in their souls to succeed in business, and being Christians, they certainly want to prove God's Word of prospering them. However, they have not yet done so in the business of this life in the world, and obtained such stature among people as an example of success.

Whether by business, trade, skill, market, sports, artistry, politics, is of no matter. A successfully retired garbage collector is more qualified to be called of full time ministry by God, than some thirty something professional go-getter and rising star of business.

Some such zealous Christian with all the sincerity in the world will take that unfulfilled natural yearning with them into ministry, and voila': The Father's business becomes a man's means of business success.

They turn the Father's business into the people business. The Father's business is the loving people business.

Only them that retire from the business of the world, and so have no more yearning need to succeed in business are truly fit for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus: they no longer have anything to prove to themselves, nor to others. They no longer seek any material success. They are not in it for what they can get out of it successfully.

They are not preaching and teaching and ministering with the sole desire of the heart to simply seek people becoming a child of God and blessed Christians in their own lives:

Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your for by faith ye stand.

Ministerial 'success' seekers will inevitably try to dominate and push people into 'helping' grow the church, aka their ministry, while truly called and sent ministers have no axe to grind and only want to help the peoples' joy, as they stand on their own faith.

What the church needs is to be spared of, is them that come at them for successful ministry, rather come to them for their own soul's sake:

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

God's ministers win souls to Christ for their own good. Self-called ministers proselytize souls to their church for their own success.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The problem of course is that the Psalm you quote is speaking of righteous saints.

The sheep divided from goats are not knowing believers, because they don't know why the Lord is choosing to place them on His right hand.

But I want to hear more of this from you on another thread, or in private.

That is an easy understanding Rob, sheep are righteous and will enter into everlasting life, and goats are unrighteous and will enter into an everlasting cutting off. Mat 25:46

Always glad to discuss it in private if you choose, anything, and I will keep it in confidence sir.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You are speaking of the honesty and sincerity of ministry. I am showing the darker side of recruitment for personal motives: those who only show themselves neighborly for purpose of conversion. It is not sincere and honest. It is proselytizing vs ministering.

When I first began to go to church willingly, it was by such a group as that. It was run as a business for profit. The preaching was true and sincere, but the 'program' was not. They would 'cover the newcomer with love', to try and get them 'all the way in', until they became workers themselves to do the same with others.

It was called 'soulwinning', but quickly degraded into the 'people business'. The Father's business is not the people business, but the loving people business.

Most ministers seeking full time ministry are not called of God to be His preachers to send into the world, because they have yet to fully succeed in their own lives as commanded in Gen 1: to be fruitful and multiply. That is the first commandment given to man and is in the heart of every person, and ought be accomplished as Christians in the world.

Those who prematurely attempt full time ministry most often then try to satisfy that urge to succeed through ministry, and so are seeking their success in this world at the wrong place and time. They turn the ministry of Christ into a business venture for success.

The beast is a minister who is all about numbers, and wants his number planted on the foreheads of all he comes into contact with.

He is a recruiter into his own business ministry, not a fisher or men and ambassador of God in Christ's stead. He makes himself the head of the body instead of Christ: a personal cult leader.

These are the false christs who say "Come over here with me. This is where you need to be. I'm the one you've been looking for."

Oh my gosh, I just saw the strangest thing…I probably can’t explain it.
It was a connection between Revelation 18 and no man being able to buy or sell unless he received the mark.
It was…is, not being able to trade…men, souls, unless you are approved to do so by taking the mark and committing to Babylon…
Oh it’s no use, I can’t believe anyone else will see it.

 

[Cassandra]

Oh my gosh, I just saw the strangest thing…I probably can’t explain it.
It was a connection between Revelation 18 and no man being able to buy or sell unless he received the mark.
It was…is, not being able to trade…men, souls, unless you are approved to do so by taking the mark and committing to Babylon…
Oh it’s no use, I can’t believe anyone else will see it.

What do you see,SBG?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What do you see,SBG?

I see that Babylon is already built. Men have built a huge structure of doctrines to try to reach God. All that really remains is for the man of lawlessness to seize Babylon and refuse to allow anyone to buy and sell men, souls, unless they take the mark of allegiance. There will be such a famine of the word…

 

[Cassandra]

Me too. and I believe it is a both a religious and political power.