Spiritual/Earthly Israel

[Heb 13:8]

I've had Rom 11 on my mind a bit, so bare with me while I slowly muddle through this. If we take 1-4 literally, then we now have a format for Rom 11:25-32 and 1-10 below as example.

1. Born again Gentiles and born again Jews = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12
3. Spiritual Israel, #1 above = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
4. Earthly Israel, #2 above = the woman in Rev 12

I do see spiritual Israel being separated from earthly Israel upon rapture in Rev 12:5, but God will protect earthly Israel until the end, Rev 12:6, 14.

1. Isa 27:6, 12 - Spiritual Israel
2. Jer 30:3 - Earthly Israel
3. Ez 33-39 - Earthly Israel
4. Dan 9:7-11, 20 - Earthly Israel
5. Hos 1-12 - Earthly Israel
6. Joel 2:27, Joel 3:16 - Spiritual Israel
7. Joel 3:1-2 - Earthly Israel
8. Amos 1-4, Amos 5:25 - Earthly Israel
9. Amos 9:14-15 - Spiritual Israel
10. Micah 5:3 (SI), Nah 2:2 (SI), Zech 11:14 (EI), Mal 1:1 (EI)

Rom 11:25/Luke 21:24/Isa 27:6, 12, Amos 9:14-15 example - full # of Gentiles end of 70th week (Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:25 - Speaking of Earthly Israel
Rom 11:26 - Speaking of Spiritual Israel (Earthly Israel now becomes one with Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:28 - The enemies here are Earthly Israel for now
Rom 11:28 / Rom 11:5-7 / Rom 11:1 - The elect here are believing Jews (via Paul's Jewish name was Saul)
Rom 11:30-32 - The struggle between Jews and Gentiles

Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this is my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God bless.

 

[farouk]

Interesting points; I guess also the NT's frequent use of the word 'church' is also relevant; and 1 Cor. 10.32 seems strongly to suggest that the church is distinct from Israel.

 

[Episkopos]

All Israel is a reference to the Gentiles coming into the commonwealth of Israel as Ephraim.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Interesting points; I guess also the NT's frequent use of the word 'church' is also relevant; and 1 Cor. 10.32 seems strongly to suggest that the church is distinct from Israel.

Yes, the church of God in 1 Cor 10 is "Spiritual Israel", and the "Jews" are Earthly Israel.

 

[farouk]

Yes, the church of God in 1 Cor 10 is "Spiritual Israel"....

Do you have a verse for this?

 

[Heb 13:8]

All Israel is a reference to the Gentiles coming into the commonwealth of Israel as Ephraim.

Yes, it will be Spiritual Israel extended. There will be more saved by the end of the 70th week.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Do you have a verse for this?

Yes, in Isa 65:9, Rom 9:4, Rom 11 Olive Tree, Gal 3:7, Gal 3:29, Gal 6:16, Rev 21:12..

 

[farouk]

Thanks for the response.

Yes, in Isa 65:9 (I don't see the church in the Old Testament.), Rom 9:4 (Here Paul is referring to his Israelite kinsmen), Rom 11 Olive Tree (I don't see here 'the fulness of the Gentiles' or the church referred to as spiritual Israel), Gal 3:7 (Abraham wasn't Israel and it doesn't say that Abraham or his seed are Israel), Gal 3:29 (ditto), Gal 6:16 (it doesn't say the church is Israel), Rev 21:12..(ditto)

 

[Heb 13:8]

Thanks for the response.

Yes, in Isa 65:9 (I don't see the church in the Old Testament.), Rom 9:4 (Here Paul is referring to his Israelite kinsmen), Rom 11 Olive Tree (I don't see here 'the fulness of the Gentiles' or the church referred to as spiritual Israel), Gal 3:7 (Abraham wasn't Israel and it doesn't say that Abraham or his seed are Israel), Gal 3:29 (ditto), Gal 6:16 (it doesn't say the church is Israel), Rev 21:12..(ditto)

Ok, so if the church isn't Spiritual Israel which they clearly are, then who are they?

 

[Heb 13:8]

Thanks for the response.

The Genealogy of Jesus is in Matt 1. If His spirit is in us, and we serve the God of Israel then 2+2=4.

Matt 1:1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

 

[Jay Ross]

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved.

This is a very bad translation of what Paul has written, where "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved." is better understood if translated in this manner, "until the fullness in time of the heathen gentiles is complete after which all of Israel will be saved."

But to come to this understanding, needs careful study of the Greek text and the meanings of individual Greek words.

Israel has not been rejected by God, but the full measure of the visitation of their iniquities on them must first be served in full before, God will hear their cries and turn once more towards them. The fullness in time of the heathen gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is 2,300 years and this time period will not be completed until the end of this present age when the Armageddon Event will occur and the Heavens and the Earth are shaken up by God and the fallen wicked heavenly hosts are judged in the heavens and the kings of the earth are judged on the earth.

Shalom

 

[Keraz]

Ethnic Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, is not a body of God's people in addition to the Church, as if God had two separate bodies of saints. The non-Christian Jewish people, are not at present a people of God at all.

On the other hand, God is not forever done with them, and does not treat or view the ethnic, unbelieving Jews, as He does all other ungodly peoples. He treats them much more severely, because they have the Law and the Prophets, while rejecting the Messiah. Yet at the end of this age, God will take some of the Jews and bring them into the one Body of Christ, with subsequent special blessings to them and their children for one thousand years.

We can view true believers as Israelites while not supporting Replacement Theology.
Pre-tribbers making the RT accusation, do so to protect their Two People, Two Promises position, vital for supporting their pre-trib rapture theory.

That is: when God’s holy people are depicted in the Bible as living on earth during the final 7 years of this era; Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7, pre-tribbers must see them as ethnic Israel, rather than Church saints. Why? In order to believe that Church saints are not on earth during the final 7 years.

It is not enough for pre-tribbers to prove what we already know, that the Jewish people will be dealt with by God in the last days, and that Jesus will then set up a Kingdom of Israel on earth that He will rule for 1000 years. That being true, it doesn't make the ethnic Jews a Body of God's people between the Crucifixion and the Return of Jesus. Jews not joining the Church by faith in Jesus, are not to be viewed as a second Body of God, and ethnic Jews destined to be saved are now and will be, incorporated into the one Body of God: the true Christian Church.

I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will survive. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, +

The wrong and unscriptural belief in a rapture removal to heaven before the wrath of God comes, teaches the Christian people not to prepare for life in the last few years of this age, so the rapture lie will be responsible for much suffering in the Church.

Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament Church are one, and have always been one. It was the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross, given to the Apostles when taken away from the Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that Jesus started a new Body called the "Church." Old-Testament Israel was the Church, Acts 7:38

Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...but usually translated into our English Bibles as "congregation or assembly of Israel"
The simple and obvious truth, is that the Christian Church is the one, true Israel of God and they remain on earth to fulfil their God given tasks and destiny.

Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected ethnic Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed them on hold so as to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age" instead, then until the 70th Week, at which time He would again focus solely on Israel. A false and unscriptural teaching.

As this Old Testament Church was eventually cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh body, it's clear that the ancient Israel of God became the New Testament Church, and did not replace it. Same Body, yet cleansed by Blood and Grace. Same Israel, but with a New Covenant:
I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers...which they broke... Jeremiah 31:31-32

Clearly, the New Covenant in the Blood was made for no other Body of God but for the Old Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her with a second Body called the "Church." And certainly the New Covenant was not given to Old Testament Israel to temporarily reject or suspend her in limbo until the 70th Week, but was provided to make Her alive and active immediately via the authority and teachings of the 12 Apostles.

TRUE JEWS MAKE THE TRUE ISRAEL - Romans 2:29
Precisely because the Israeli Woman of Revelation 12 is living within the tribulation period, pre-tribulationists resort to changing her identity to bloodline Israel. But any Biblical symbol of Israel in the tribulation period cannot include bloodline Jews, for they are no longer Jews in the eyes of God. They are Jews only in the eyes of man, for the Bible teaches that a Jew in the eyes of God is one only in the Spirit.

There is indelible Biblical support for the idea that non-Jewish Christians are citizens of God's Israel. They are Jews in a very real sense, by the Spirit. Since the Spirit counts for more than blood, Gentile saints are Jews more than the Jews who are such by blood but not through the King of the Jews. Paul, a Jew who once held a lofty position in the "synagogue of Satan," maintained this very principle without any gray area at all when he became a citizen of Christ's Israel: "A Jew is not one outwardly, but is a Jew in the hidden parts [of the spirit]..." (Romans 2:28,29). In other words, Israelites are Israelites only if they are part of the elect Christian Church.

Thus, while Jews of Old-Testament times were born into the Israel of God from their natural births, a Jew in New-Testament times has to be born into the Israel of God by a second birth. If a person born into Abraham's stock by their natural birth now rebels against Jesus and does not become born again in the Spirit, such a one would not technically be cut off from Israel, because such a person would never have been a part of Israel in the first place. And so the means by becoming an Israelite citizen has changed, but this does not require a new Israel.

Peter said, while repeating Moses, "And it shall be that every soul which does not listen to that prophet [Messiah] will be utterly destroyed from the people" (Acts 3:23). Thus, the Old-Testament Jews (e.g. the 12 Apostles prior to the Crucifixion) who did devote themselves to "that prophet" simply retained their citizenship in Israel.

Try reading Revelation 12 by viewing the Woman as the one Israel of God covering both Covenants, and we can see why it's Christians that are called her "offspring" in verse 17. This picture is no different than Paul's picture of the tree of Israel with its Christian "branches" (Romans 11), where Jews who do not put on Christ are branches that fall off the Tree. Yes, this woman of Revelation 12 is that same tree of Israel with Gentile saints grafted in; she is the "all Israel" mentioned by Paul, both the bloodline Jews in Christ, and the Gentiles-come-Jews in Christ.
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children."

"It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise [made to Abraham]" (vs 8).
This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.

The writer of Hebrews confirms that one House of Israel covers two covenants:
"Moses on the one hand was faithful in all His household [singular, not plural]...Christ on the other hand is a Son over His [same] household; of whom we [Christians] are [now] the household" Hebrews 3:5,6

Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and the New Testament Body are one and the same Household? In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament times, "the church:"

"church" is not exclusively the New Testament Church? See how Stephen viewed the Christian people as an integral part of the old Church of Israel? "Church" used in New-Testament times was a Greek short-form for "Church of Israel" to distinguish from the nation of bloodline Israel. The Elect Jews of New-Testament times were not often called "Israel" by the early leaders of Christianity because there existed the bloodline Israel with geographical borders known to all the world as "Israel." To eliminate confusion, the leaders referred to the true Israel as "the church."
All the Elect from Adam to the Christian Church to the very advent of the New Earth are the ONE Israel of God -- this is the Israel which is the woman of Revelation 12.

 

[Episkopos]

...and if God was a respecter of persons then the DNA salvation scheme could have some validity.

But it is written...Gal. 3:22 “But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.”

All Gentiles? Or all people?

The word says FIRST the Jews THEN the Gentiles...but many have this the other way around. First the Gentiles...and then the Jews????

Why diminish faith?

And the proper rendering of the verse is like this

And when the fullness of the nations (melo hagoyim) has come in.....then all Israel will have been saved. IOW. Once the Gentile time is over....Israel is made complete.

Of course if individual Jews believe and are grafted in during this time...so much the better.

 

[farouk]

Ethnic Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, is not a body of God's people in addition to the Church, as if God had two separate bodies of saints. The non-Christian Jewish people, are not at present a people of God at all.

On the other hand, God is not forever done with them, and does not treat or view the ethnic, unbelieving Jews, as He does all other ungodly peoples. He treats them much more severely, because they have the Law and the Prophets, while rejecting the Messiah. Yet at the end of this age, God will take some of the Jews and bring them into the one Body of Christ, with subsequent special blessings to them and their children for one thousand years.

We can view true believers as Israelites while not supporting Replacement Theology.
Pre-tribbers making the RT accusation, do so to protect their Two People, Two Promises position, vital for supporting their pre-trib rapture theory.

That is: when God’s holy people are depicted in the Bible as living on earth during the final 7 years of this era; Daniel 7:25 & Revelation 13:7, pre-tribbers must see them as ethnic Israel, rather than Church saints. Why? In order to believe that Church saints are not on earth during the final 7 years.

It is not enough for pre-tribbers to prove what we already know, that the Jewish people will be dealt with by God in the last days, and that Jesus will then set up a Kingdom of Israel on earth that He will rule for 1000 years. That being true, it doesn't make the ethnic Jews a Body of God's people between the Crucifixion and the Return of Jesus. Jews not joining the Church by faith in Jesus, are not to be viewed as a second Body of God, and ethnic Jews destined to be saved are now and will be, incorporated into the one Body of God: the true Christian Church.

I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will survive. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, +

The wrong and unscriptural belief in a rapture removal to heaven before the wrath of God comes, teaches the Christian people not to prepare for life in the last few years of this age, so the rapture lie will be responsible for much suffering in the Church.

Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament Church are one, and have always been one. It was the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross, given to the Apostles when taken away from the Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that Jesus started a new Body called the "Church." Old-Testament Israel was the Church, Acts 7:38

Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...but usually translated into our English Bibles as "congregation or assembly of Israel"
The simple and obvious truth, is that the Christian Church is the one, true Israel of God and they remain on earth to fulfil their God given tasks and destiny.

Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected ethnic Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed them on hold so as to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age" instead, then until the 70th Week, at which time He would again focus solely on Israel. A false and unscriptural teaching.

As this Old Testament Church was eventually cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh body, it's clear that the ancient Israel of God became the New Testament Church, and did not replace it. Same Body, yet cleansed by Blood and Grace. Same Israel, but with a New Covenant:
I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers...which they broke... Jeremiah 31:31-32

Clearly, the New Covenant in the Blood was made for no other Body of God but for the Old Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her with a second Body called the "Church." And certainly the New Covenant was not given to Old Testament Israel to temporarily reject or suspend her in limbo until the 70th Week, but was provided to make Her alive and active immediately via the authority and teachings of the 12 Apostles.

TRUE JEWS MAKE THE TRUE ISRAEL - Romans 2:29
Precisely because the Israeli Woman of Revelation 12 is living within the tribulation period, pre-tribulationists resort to changing her identity to bloodline Israel. But any Biblical symbol of Israel in the tribulation period cannot include bloodline Jews, for they are no longer Jews in the eyes of God. They are Jews only in the eyes of man, for the Bible teaches that a Jew in the eyes of God is one only in the Spirit.

There is indelible Biblical support for the idea that non-Jewish Christians are citizens of God's Israel. They are Jews in a very real sense, by the Spirit. Since the Spirit counts for more than blood, Gentile saints are Jews more than the Jews who are such by blood but not through the King of the Jews. Paul, a Jew who once held a lofty position in the "synagogue of Satan," maintained this very principle without any gray area at all when he became a citizen of Christ's Israel: "A Jew is not one outwardly, but is a Jew in the hidden parts [of the spirit]..." (Romans 2:28,29). In other words, Israelites are Israelites only if they are part of the elect Christian Church.

Thus, while Jews of Old-Testament times were born into the Israel of God from their natural births, a Jew in New-Testament times has to be born into the Israel of God by a second birth. If a person born into Abraham's stock by their natural birth now rebels against Jesus and does not become born again in the Spirit, such a one would not technically be cut off from Israel, because such a person would never have been a part of Israel in the first place. And so the means by becoming an Israelite citizen has changed, but this does not require a new Israel.

Peter said, while repeating Moses, "And it shall be that every soul which does not listen to that prophet [Messiah] will be utterly destroyed from the people" (Acts 3:23). Thus, the Old-Testament Jews (e.g. the 12 Apostles prior to the Crucifixion) who did devote themselves to "that prophet" simply retained their citizenship in Israel.

Try reading Revelation 12 by viewing the Woman as the one Israel of God covering both Covenants, and we can see why it's Christians that are called her "offspring" in verse 17. This picture is no different than Paul's picture of the tree of Israel with its Christian "branches" (Romans 11), where Jews who do not put on Christ are branches that fall off the Tree. Yes, this woman of Revelation 12 is that same tree of Israel with Gentile saints grafted in; she is the "all Israel" mentioned by Paul, both the bloodline Jews in Christ, and the Gentiles-come-Jews in Christ.
When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6). There you have it; two distinct Israels in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children."

"It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise [made to Abraham]" (vs 8).
This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.

The writer of Hebrews confirms that one House of Israel covers two covenants:
"Moses on the one hand was faithful in all His household [singular, not plural]...Christ on the other hand is a Son over His [same] household; of whom we [Christians] are [now] the household" Hebrews 3:5,6

Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and the New Testament Body are one and the same Household? In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament times, "the church:"

"church" is not exclusively the New Testament Church? See how Stephen viewed the Christian people as an integral part of the old Church of Israel? "Church" used in New-Testament times was a Greek short-form for "Church of Israel" to distinguish from the nation of bloodline Israel. The Elect Jews of New-Testament times were not often called "Israel" by the early leaders of Christianity because there existed the bloodline Israel with geographical borders known to all the world as "Israel." To eliminate confusion, the leaders referred to the true Israel as "the church."
All the Elect from Adam to the Christian Church to the very advent of the New Earth are the ONE Israel of God -- this is the Israel which is the woman of Revelation 12.

I don't understand the term 'Old Testament church'. The church began at Pentecost; it is a revealed mystery, as Ephesians says.

 

[Dave L]

I've had Rom 11 on my mind a bit, so bare with me while I slowly muddle through this. If we take 1-4 literally, then we now have a format for Rom 11:25-32 and 1-10 below as example.

1. Born again Gentiles and born again Jews = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
2. Non believing Jews = the woman in Rev 12
3. Spiritual Israel, #1 above = the body of Christ, the child in Rev 12
4. Earthly Israel, #2 above = the woman in Rev 12

I do see spiritual Israel being separated from earthly Israel upon rapture in Rev 12:5, but God will protect earthly Israel until the end, Rev 12:6, 14.

1. Isa 27:6, 12 - Spiritual Israel
2. Jer 30:3 - Earthly Israel
3. Ez 33-39 - Earthly Israel
4. Dan 9:7-11, 20 - Earthly Israel
5. Hos 1-12 - Earthly Israel
6. Joel 2:27, Joel 3:16 - Spiritual Israel
7. Joel 3:1-2 - Earthly Israel
8. Amos 1-4, Amos 5:25 - Earthly Israel
9. Amos 9:14-15 - Spiritual Israel
10. Micah 5:3 (SI), Nah 2:2 (SI), Zech 11:14 (EI), Mal 1:1 (EI)

Rom 11:25/Luke 21:24/Isa 27:6, 12, Amos 9:14-15 example - full # of Gentiles end of 70th week (Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:25 - Speaking of Earthly Israel
Rom 11:26 - Speaking of Spiritual Israel (Earthly Israel now becomes one with Spiritual Israel)
Rom 11:28 - The enemies here are Earthly Israel for now
Rom 11:28 / Rom 11:5-7 / Rom 11:1 - The elect here are believing Jews (via Paul's Jewish name was Saul)
Rom 11:30-32 - The struggle between Jews and Gentiles

Rom 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

All Israel Will Be Saved

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;

he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

27And this is my covenant with them

when I take away their sins.”

28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God bless.

When God abolished circumcision, he removed unbelievers from Israel forever. Only through faith in Christ will he reattach any: “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

Remember;
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) So the promises to Abraham apply only to those who accept Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When God abolished circumcision, he removed unbelievers from Israel forever. Only through faith in Christ will he reattach any: “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23)

Remember;
“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20) So the promises to Abraham apply only to those who accept Christ.

Mark 11:8-9
[8] And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way. [9] And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

Matthew 23:38-39
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. [39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Enoch111]

All Israel is a reference to the Gentiles coming into the commonwealth of Israel as Ephraim.

This idea was pulled out of thin air. Very inventive, but totally false.

Ephraim was -- and will remain -- as one of the twelve tribes of Israel in future. So why are people reluctant to believe the Word of God? UNBELIEF.

...Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand... (Rev 7:8)

"Joseph" is used for "Ephraim" here since Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph (Manasseh being the other son). That is clarified in Ezekiel 48:1,5,6, which speaks of the future land of Israel with all twelve tribes placed there by God:

Now these are the names of the tribes... And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

 

[Episkopos]

This idea was pulled out of thin air. Very inventive, but totally false.

Ephraim was -- and will remain -- as one of the twelve tribes of Israel in future. So why are people reluctant to believe the Word of God? UNBELIEF.

...Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand... (Rev 7:8)

"Joseph" is used for "Ephraim" here since Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph (Manasseh being the other son). That is clarified in Ezekiel 48:1,5,6, which speaks of the future land of Israel with all twelve tribes placed there by God:

Now these are the names of the tribes... And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim. And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

LOL You are just using one verse...which you are not understanding...to refute others which don't line up with...you guessed it...a faulty understanding.

We see this kind of error all the time.

By taking everything literally concerning Israel...you are actually selling out your own birthright. Unless you are Jewish of course...then you are just preferring good sounding verses over bad sounding ones. (and people do this all the time as well)

The Israel of old is finished...as in "It is finished". A new covenant has been cut with Israel and Judah...and the Israel here and NOW is a spiritual entity that are grafted into Israel by the operation of the living God. So it is against this that you are posturing.It is not a good thing to resist what God has done.

Judah is the Jews.

Israel are they who overcome with God...by Jesus Christ. Israel has always been such.

The name Israel comes from God who changed the name of a man (Jacob) who prevailed with God. Israel are all of they who prevail with God.

God is a Spirit....not a man. As such we are moving closer and closer to a spiritual ending...to live with a spiritual God.

Those who have no understanding of spiritual things are FORCED to put a literal and natural spin on what they read in the bible. So it is no surprise that men would have come with a whole system of belief that denies the true spiritual nature of the word of God.

Jesus came to bring a new kind of life...an eternal kind of life in the Spirit. Salvation is to enter into THAT kind of life. This is something that natural Israel (actually Judah) will never do. I can be confident of this because very few Christians will enter in either.

Follow the words of Jesus.

 

[Keraz]

I don't understand the term 'Old Testament church'. The church began at Pentecost; it is a revealed mystery, as Ephesians says.

Call the people of God what you like; church, congregation, ekkelasia…...they are the one body of faithful believers in God. From the beginning until now, it is only those people who have true faith and who keep the Commandments, who belong God's holy people.
What began at Pentecost, was the Gospel becoming available to all who would receive it.

Good post Episkopos; Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16

 

[Enoch111]

LOL You are just using one verse...which you are not understanding...to refute others which don't line up with...you guessed it...a faulty understanding.

That one verse is to tell you that there is a book of prophecy (Ezekiel) to confirm that God has an eternal plan and purpose for Israel on earth. And Ezekiel is backed up from Genesis to Revelation. So let's get rid of your fallacies right now (and hopefully you will believe God).

CHAPTER 11
16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

CHAPTER 20
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD...
42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.

CHAPTER 36
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do betterunto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men...
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.