Spiritual Shepherding

[Episkopos]

The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith (Titus 1:4) and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ (Phil.3:14). Some might suggest that this smacks of the “clergy-laity” split that has afflicted the church throughout history. However, the clergy system is both artificial and a usurpation of God’s order of
spiritual shepherding.


In the church of God, there is to be a spiritual and holy oversight by men who are led by the Spirit. Few indeed will enter into the resurrection power of eternal life while in these mortal bodies. In the church of God, we come together to flow in eternal unity. We gather together in order to fulfill the requirement of actually being the church of God, that is, to be ruled over by the Lord. We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence. The prophets that God has gifted to be in a given city must come to an agreement together. They are not to form different cliques based on personal ministries, as we see in the popular sectarian denominations. It is wrong to label the entities that are based on personal ministries as churches. Ministries are there to support the church, not the other way around. In the end, there is but one ministry, the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Under whose authority are we truly committing ourselves in what we call the church? What is bringing people together? Is it certain teachings that tickle the ears, or the presence and power of God?

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

What John is describing in the above verse is an invitation to fellowship with people who are already in fellowship with God. The early church was a place that formed disciples. There was an apprenticeship tradition established in the younger believers towards the deeper fellowship of a direct connection with God. The leadership of the church walked with God and nurtured that walk in the lives of others. At least, it did so in earlier times. But a man can’t lead another into a relationship that he doesn’t have himself.

The Nicolaitans, on the other hand, rule by the will of men through the carnal and religious power of the outer man (Rev. 2:15). The clergy system is a counterfeit to the legitimate rule in the church by holy men who are approved and empowered by God.

God doesn’t choose what men choose. We must determine whose church it will be. If it is to be the church of God, then it must be by the direction of God. Men can have no say in it. Christ is the Head of every man individually, but He is also the Head of His church corporately. The divine order is for men to stand in a place of authority in His name. But this requires the approval and anointing of God. No amount of education nor training from men can qualify a man to have authority over the faith of another (2 Cor. 1:24). In any case, spiritual leadership is by example not by lording it over others in the church. The love of God is what nurtures faith and faithfulness in all its members.

The people of God are brought together in an eternal moment by the living word. If we receive the prophet in the name of a prophet, then we will get the same consideration from God as the prophet does (Matt. 10:41). If we disregard the work of the Lord in any member of His body, then we are disregarding Him. If we don’t recognize those who are led by His Spirit then we will suffer spiritual famine.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:” (Amos 8:11)

If we wish to partake of the life and power that is afforded to the church, then we need to turn towards God once again in deep repentance. But even before that, we will need to consider the distance that the modern church has strayed from the apostolic tradition and authority that comes from abiding in the risen Christ.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith (Titus 1:4) and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ (Phil.3:14). Some might suggest that this smacks of the “clergy-laity” split that has afflicted the church throughout history. However, the clergy system is both artificial and a usurpation of God’s order of
spiritual shepherding.


In the church of God, there is to be a spiritual and holy oversight by men who are led by the Spirit. Few indeed will enter into the resurrection power of eternal life while in these mortal bodies. In the church of God, we come together to flow in eternal unity. We gather together in order to fulfill the requirement of actually being the church of God, that is, to be ruled over by the Lord. We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence. The prophets that God has gifted to be in a given city must come to an agreement together. They are not to form different cliques based on personal ministries, as we see in the popular sectarian denominations. It is wrong to label the entities that are based on personal ministries as churches. Ministries are there to support the church, not the other way around. In the end, there is but one ministry, the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Under whose authority are we truly committing ourselves in what we call the church? What is bringing people together? Is it certain teachings that tickle the ears, or the presence and power of God?

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

What John is describing in the above verse is an invitation to fellowship with people who are already in fellowship with God. The early church was a place that formed disciples. There was an apprenticeship tradition established in the younger believers towards the deeper fellowship of a direct connection with God. The leadership of the church walked with God and nurtured that walk in the lives of others. At least, it did so in earlier times. But a man can’t lead another into a relationship that he doesn’t have himself.

The Nicolaitans, on the other hand, rule by the will of men through the carnal and religious power of the outer man (Rev. 2:15). The clergy system is a counterfeit to the legitimate rule in the church by holy men who are approved and empowered by God.

God doesn’t choose what men choose. We must determine whose church it will be. If it is to be the church of God, then it must be by the direction of God. Men can have no say in it. Christ is the Head of every man individually, but He is also the Head of His church corporately. The divine order is for men to stand in a place of authority in His name. But this requires the approval and anointing of God. No amount of education nor training from men can qualify a man to have authority over the faith of another (2 Cor. 1:24). In any case, spiritual leadership is by example not by lording it over others in the church. The love of God is what nurtures faith and faithfulness in all its members.

The people of God are brought together in an eternal moment by the living word. If we receive the prophet in the name of a prophet, then we will get the same consideration from God as the prophet does (Matt. 10:41). If we disregard the work of the Lord in any member of His body, then we are disregarding Him. If we don’t recognize those who are led by His Spirit then we will suffer spiritual famine.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:” (Amos 8:11)

If we wish to partake of the life and power that is afforded to the church, then we need to turn towards God once again in deep repentance. But even before that, we will need to consider the distance that the modern church has strayed from the apostolic tradition and authority that comes from abiding in the risen Christ.

Titus 1:4 Lexicon: To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
“In a common Faith” Sounds different then “on” in: The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith …and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ. Then is “my true child in a common faith” lesser than, and not the “high calling” which is in Christ whereby “they had all things in common”?

2839 koinós – properly, common, referring to what is defiled (stripped of specialness) because treated as ordinary ("common"). 2839 /koinós ("defiled") describes the result of a person reducing what God calls special (holy, set apart) – to what is mundane, i.e. stripping it of its sacredness.

2839 /koinós ("defiled because treated as common") is always used negatively, i.e. for what is profaned – except in Jude 1:3 where it refers to the gift of salvation shared (held in common) by all true believers.

[2839 /koinós ("common") typically refers to spiritual desecration. This happens when a person treats what is sacred (set apart to God) as ordinary ("not special").]

(Acts 11:5-10), (Acts 10:28) And he said unto them, You know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Titus 1:4 Lexicon: To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
“In a common Faith” Sounds different then “on” in: The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith …and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ. Then is “my true child in a common faith” lesser than, and not the “high calling” which is in Christ whereby “they had all things in common”?

2839 koinós – properly, common, referring to what is defiled (stripped of specialness) because treated as ordinary ("common"). 2839 /koinós ("defiled") describes the result of a person reducing what God calls special (holy, set apart) – to what is mundane, i.e. stripping it of its sacredness.

2839 /koinós ("defiled because treated as common") is always used negatively, i.e. for what is profaned – except in Jude 1:3 where it refers to the gift of salvation shared (held in common) by all true believers.

[2839 /koinós ("common") typically refers to spiritual desecration. This happens when a person treats what is sacred (set apart to God) as ordinary ("not special").]

(Acts 11:5-10), (Acts 10:28) And he said unto them, You know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
?

I think the word common there means shared, the faith they share.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think the word common there means shared, the faith they share.

makes me smile thinking of what my youngest granddaughter (she is four) repeats from her daycare all the time: caring is sharing.

 

[amadeus]

@Episkopos Yes, there are people, who try to lead without the Spirit of God leading them at the one extreme, while at the other end are people leading who are both in the Spirit and led by the Spirit in their calling from God.

It may appear as absolute chaos for unbelievers not attracted in the moment by God at all. It is easy to see why some people live like atheists whether they confess themselves to be or not.

The Body of Christ is growing more like Him all of the time, but who are they which are, or are to be, parts of that growing Body? Who are they that have been called and sent by God to accomplish the work of Eph. 4:12-16? In 4:11 of that chapter, they were named for the work they supposed to do by the Apostle Paul. But..., how many people can truly identify who is really included among the specified ministries even if some claim to hold a title or position such as apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher?

People who are truly hungry and thirsty for God's righteousness will be filled. Perhaps such hungry and thirsty ones will know when they have real ministers of God nourishing them properly. I would hazard to say that while there are those working in those ministries truly to fulfill their duties, there are others with different assignments, who fill in gaps at times like Stephen [Acts chapters 6 & 7]. They may spend most of their time engaged in secular work in order to accomplish other very necessary tasks.

God uses people who are available to fill in the gaps because sometimes people who should have been available, for the wrong reasons, were not. God will keep His promises, one way or the other, using one minister or another. He may at times use a restaurant waiter to feed people something more important than beef and potatoes because that waiter loves God enough to be available.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith (Titus 1:4) and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ (Phil.3:14). Some might suggest that this smacks of the “clergy-laity” split that has afflicted the church throughout history. However, the clergy system is both artificial and a usurpation of God’s order of
spiritual shepherding.


In the church of God, there is to be a spiritual and holy oversight by men who are led by the Spirit. Few indeed will enter into the resurrection power of eternal life while in these mortal bodies. In the church of God, we come together to flow in eternal unity. We gather together in order to fulfill the requirement of actually being the church of God, that is, to be ruled over by the Lord. We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence. The prophets that God has gifted to be in a given city must come to an agreement together. They are not to form different cliques based on personal ministries, as we see in the popular sectarian denominations. It is wrong to label the entities that are based on personal ministries as churches. Ministries are there to support the church, not the other way around. In the end, there is but one ministry, the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Under whose authority are we truly committing ourselves in what we call the church? What is bringing people together? Is it certain teachings that tickle the ears, or the presence and power of God?

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

What John is describing in the above verse is an invitation to fellowship with people who are already in fellowship with God. The early church was a place that formed disciples. There was an apprenticeship tradition established in the younger believers towards the deeper fellowship of a direct connection with God. The leadership of the church walked with God and nurtured that walk in the lives of others. At least, it did so in earlier times. But a man can’t lead another into a relationship that he doesn’t have himself.

The Nicolaitans, on the other hand, rule by the will of men through the carnal and religious power of the outer man (Rev. 2:15). The clergy system is a counterfeit to the legitimate rule in the church by holy men who are approved and empowered by God.

God doesn’t choose what men choose. We must determine whose church it will be. If it is to be the church of God, then it must be by the direction of God. Men can have no say in it. Christ is the Head of every man individually, but He is also the Head of His church corporately. The divine order is for men to stand in a place of authority in His name. But this requires the approval and anointing of God. No amount of education nor training from men can qualify a man to have authority over the faith of another (2 Cor. 1:24). In any case, spiritual leadership is by example not by lording it over others in the church. The love of God is what nurtures faith and faithfulness in all its members.

The people of God are brought together in an eternal moment by the living word. If we receive the prophet in the name of a prophet, then we will get the same consideration from God as the prophet does (Matt. 10:41). If we disregard the work of the Lord in any member of His body, then we are disregarding Him. If we don’t recognize those who are led by His Spirit then we will suffer spiritual famine.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:” (Amos 8:11)

If we wish to partake of the life and power that is afforded to the church, then we need to turn towards God once again in deep repentance. But even before that, we will need to consider the distance that the modern church has strayed from the apostolic tradition and authority that comes from abiding in the risen Christ.

You have spoken the truth here. It is utterly true.
I just don’t think it’s going to be fixed. It has to be escaped at this point, not fixed. I think you can help to build up the trust of others and can try to show how what they’ve been taught is not true or is only half true, but…at this point, grabbing a few if you can is where we seem to be at.

 

[Episkopos]

The Mormons send out young men (boys really) and give them the title of "elder" so that they can proselytize neighbourhoods for their church. It is no wonder that they use youths since their message is one of being indoctrinated. No understanding, wisdom or spiritual maturity is required.

Similarly we have churches who hire youthful men with a college degree from "Christian Tech" in such impressive subjects as truthology and churchianity. How is that any different from what the Mormons are doing? In the case of Evangelicalism pastors are there to destroy all spirits...through the process of pastorization. So then no real spiritual understanding is required. No spiritual discernment is either required nor desired in the case where all spirits are suppressed. That is how the churches stay safe and consistent. Are they changing the world the way the church of God does? Of course not. The modern church caters to the uncrucified and lets them remain uncrucified...even using uncrucified ministry to preserve the people in that state.
But the church of God is exclusively built on the inner man...away from the outer man.

I recently heard Joh MacArthur preach a sermon that shows his lack of understanding of all things spiritual. He quoted the verse that says that the inner man is renewed daily as the outer man is perishing. He quipped that the outer man perishing was the reason that older people don't have mirrors in their houses...since they are wrinkled and sagging. Ha ha! But using that analogy does the inner man mean physical organs such as lungs and spleens? So much of modern ministry tries to explain away the spiritual significance of the biblical text. So much so that when someone tries to explain the actual depth of the truth...most think they are just making things up. This is how far most believers have strayed from the truth. And few care about this. They have put heir trust in false teachers rather than Christ.

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

Who can discern the sign of the times?

 

[Episkopos]

So then who is to do the spiritual shepherding? Priests? Pastors? No.

It takes a person who walks in the Spirit to guide others into that same walk. Reproducing a dead religious form only makes the church dead. And people are fine with that as long as they are promised a good ending. They trust the offices that men have set up. They trust the religion they have been taught. Does that change them into the stature of Christ? Never has, and never will! So we see an entirely different agenda in the church than what we read about in the bible.
Should we not be alarmed at this?

In a functioning church of disciples, the older brethren serve as an example to the younger brethren. The spiritual ones help the carnal ones. But we have no such categories in the modern churches simply because there are no spiritual ones. Everything revolves around the central control of the hireling...whose job it is to keep out all spirits. And when a certain church permits spirits entry, they can't discern which is of God and which is not. So either there are no spirits welcome or else ALL spirits are welcome. Have you ever read a steeple-house sign that said...all welcome?

So if men are not following God's order...then whose order are people following?

In the early church everyone understood the difference between those who were spiritual...walking in the resurrection life of Christ...and the common believer who still walked in his own strength, and who still sinned. No one comes into the church already mature. The church is supposed to be reproducing Christ in its members so that the mature have the character of Christ...the full stature of Christ.

We know a tree by its fruit. People attend churches for decades without ever knowing anything of Christ in truth. It's all about theories and human observations and assessments. It's as if Jesus wasn't available to participate in the meetings Himself. It's as if Jesus was not yet resurrected. And this is normal where the outer man of the flesh is running the show.

 

[marks]

Ha ha! But using that analogy does the inner man mean physical organs such as lungs and spleens?

That's not what he means at all when he says that. If you listened to him you'd likely know that. In that he quips in his message, there's no need to present him falsely.

You can make your point just fine, I think, without needlessly impugning someone else. Something to think about maybe.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We know a tree by its fruit.

This is what Jesus taught in recognizing false teachers and prophets, and we need to pay attention to that. What is a person's fruit? When we look at the fruit of the Spirit, we see the spiritual character of the spiritual man.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

That's not what he means at all when he says that. If you listened to him you'd likely know that. In that he quips in his message, there's no need to present him falsely.

You can make your point just fine, I think, without needlessly impugning someone else. Something to think about maybe.

Much love!

Thou dost protest overmuch. A person in public ministry is apt to be corrected...unless you think that ministers speaking from a podium should never be questioned. I wonder if you feel the same way about Mr. M condemning so many charismatic preachers to hell?

I'm for freedom of thought...a radical idea in a place where dogmatism and indoctrination are the bread and butter of so many careers and where the precarious hopes and dreams of so many take shelter.

I never quoted him falsely...that is you quoting me falsely. You see, how you do what you say others do. The mind goes in loops..of its own devising.

So you should stick to the argument rather than try attacking a person who is trying to bring clarity where so many are bringing confusion. Follow your own advice. Something for you to think about perhaps...with lots of love of course.

But back to the issue at hand...rabbit trails notwithstanding. People tend to think the outer man is the body, which is not so. The outer man is still within a person...as in..in me dwells no good thing. Both the inner man AND the outer man are part of the human condition. The inner man is the part that is regenerated by the Spirit. But the outer man is where people live from...where people are easily manipulated by the devil and the influence he exerts in the temporal world.
The inner man is called to be connected to God by grace...overcoming this world by partaking of life in the eternal reality. What is eternal trumps what is temporal.

What you never hear being preached is how important it is to be crucified in the outer man. To take away our own reasoning process, our own preferences and ways of thinking that have been developed over the time we have lived in this temporal world. God's ways are eternal ways. The mind of Christ is an eternal mindset that is NOT being filtered by an active outer man that operates only in this world.
The outer man is like a crust around the inner man that keeps him in bondage to sin and reliant on the natural senses. The outer man looks to be trained to appear as a Christian...but without having any spiritual depth in reality. How many believers today are just operating in the flesh in a religious way trying to improve their performance (which doesn't work) while calling that futile process "sanctification?"

Without a deep repentance, many modern believers are headed for great disappointment on Judgment Day. There will be weeping and anger.

But hey...why not allow modern ministers to preach from their uncrucified outer man...to our own? Undisturbed by the truth!

 

[David H.]

The church that God is building is being built on two levels; the first being based on the common faith (Titus 1:4) and the other based on the faith required for the “high calling” which is in Christ (Phil.3:14). Some might suggest that this smacks of the “clergy-laity” split that has afflicted the church throughout history. However, the clergy system is both artificial and a usurpation of God’s order of
spiritual shepherding.


In the church of God, there is to be a spiritual and holy oversight by men who are led by the Spirit. Few indeed will enter into the resurrection power of eternal life while in these mortal bodies. In the church of God, we come together to flow in eternal unity. We gather together in order to fulfill the requirement of actually being the church of God, that is, to be ruled over by the Lord. We are to be led by men who are at least led by the Spirit if indeed there are not any who have a continuous walk in God’s presence. The prophets that God has gifted to be in a given city must come to an agreement together. They are not to form different cliques based on personal ministries, as we see in the popular sectarian denominations. It is wrong to label the entities that are based on personal ministries as churches. Ministries are there to support the church, not the other way around. In the end, there is but one ministry, the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Under whose authority are we truly committing ourselves in what we call the church? What is bringing people together? Is it certain teachings that tickle the ears, or the presence and power of God?

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” (1 John 1:3)

What John is describing in the above verse is an invitation to fellowship with people who are already in fellowship with God. The early church was a place that formed disciples. There was an apprenticeship tradition established in the younger believers towards the deeper fellowship of a direct connection with God. The leadership of the church walked with God and nurtured that walk in the lives of others. At least, it did so in earlier times. But a man can’t lead another into a relationship that he doesn’t have himself.

The Nicolaitans, on the other hand, rule by the will of men through the carnal and religious power of the outer man (Rev. 2:15). The clergy system is a counterfeit to the legitimate rule in the church by holy men who are approved and empowered by God.

God doesn’t choose what men choose. We must determine whose church it will be. If it is to be the church of God, then it must be by the direction of God. Men can have no say in it. Christ is the Head of every man individually, but He is also the Head of His church corporately. The divine order is for men to stand in a place of authority in His name. But this requires the approval and anointing of God. No amount of education nor training from men can qualify a man to have authority over the faith of another (2 Cor. 1:24). In any case, spiritual leadership is by example not by lording it over others in the church. The love of God is what nurtures faith and faithfulness in all its members.

The people of God are brought together in an eternal moment by the living word. If we receive the prophet in the name of a prophet, then we will get the same consideration from God as the prophet does (Matt. 10:41). If we disregard the work of the Lord in any member of His body, then we are disregarding Him. If we don’t recognize those who are led by His Spirit then we will suffer spiritual famine.

“Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:” (Amos 8:11)

If we wish to partake of the life and power that is afforded to the church, then we need to turn towards God once again in deep repentance. But even before that, we will need to consider the distance that the modern church has strayed from the apostolic tradition and authority that comes from abiding in the risen Christ.

Well said. the church was meant to be led by elders, not to be lorded over. We are each growing up into Him, and becoming a holy temple unto the LORD, and a habitation for his fullness. (Ephesians 2:20-22) We are each being made to be a royal priesthood.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Mormons send out young men (boys really) and give them the title of "elder" so that they can proselytize neighbourhoods for their church. It is no wonder that they use youths since their message is one of being indoctrinated. No understanding, wisdom or spiritual maturity is required.

Similarly we have churches who hire youthful men with a college degree from "Christian Tech" in such impressive subjects as truthology and churchianity. How is that any different from what the Mormons are doing?

It’s not different at all. Both convince people to eat food offered to the idols of their fathers.

 

[marks]

So you should stick to the argument rather than try attacking a person who is trying to bring clarity where so many are bringing confusion. Follow your own advice. Something for you to think about perhaps...with lots of love of course.

I say what I say for your benefit.

I never quoted him falsely...that is you quoting me falsely. You see, how you do what you say others do. The mind goes in loops..of its own devising.

Perhaps you protest a bit over? No, you didn't quote him, you presented him, and not rightly. And now you've presented me as if I were quoting you wrongly, misrepresenting me.

Yes . . . round and round it goes. I've said what I wanted, that's fine.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

As to what you said about men appointing men, that was the sin of Jeraboam that led to the downfall of his house, (that many kings after him also did.) He appointed priests from all sorts of people. Anyone who wanted to become a priest he consecrated for the high places.

 

[marks]

People tend to think the outer man is the body, which is not so. The outer man is still within a person...as in..in me dwells no good thing. Both the inner man AND the outer man are part of the human condition. The inner man is the part that is regenerated by the Spirit. But the outer man is where people live from...where people are easily manipulated by the devil and the influence he exerts in the temporal world.

A lot of people do think of the "outer man" that way, as if he were a second "inner man". I'd be interested in the Scriptures you see this in. But if you don't wish to, I understand.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To take away our own reasoning process, our own preferences and ways of thinking that have been developed over the time we have lived in this temporal world. God's ways are eternal ways. The mind of Christ is an eternal mindset that is NOT being filtered by an active outer man that operates only in this world.
The outer man is like a crust around the inner man that keeps him in bondage to sin and reliant on the natural senses. The outer man looks to be trained to appear as a Christian...but without having any spiritual depth in reality. How many believers today are just operating in the flesh in a religious way trying to improve their performance (which doesn't work) while calling that futile process "sanctification?"

All other disagreements aside, Yes, I see this altogether too much!

I find that people seem to fail to believe in the reality of the "new man", the reality of being a "new creation", and fail to think that God has given them the power to walk in the Spirit at all times we are trusting Him that this can be so. They fail to believe that being dead to sin is a reality, instead, some flowery speech but without meaning. And if you don't believe you are in reality freed from sin, where is the power to walk a new life? If you don't believe you can, you won't.

I think people need to see someone actually mature in faith and knowledge, which will show itself in their love for others, and they need to see these truths written out in the Scriptures, to know that this is from God Himself.

Naturally God Himself must give this increase, and first He will stir up hunger and thirst.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

A lot of people do think of the "outer man" that way, as if he were a second "inner man". I'd be interested in the Scriptures you see this in. But if you don't wish to, I understand.

Much love!

It is the difference between being under the law and being under grace. The outer man is tied to the law by the law of sin and death. The inner man is able to be free of the outer man in order to enter into Christ through the law of the Spirit of life that is in Christ. His cross is the power that sets us free in the inner man by putting the outer man to death (rendering the carnal nature powerless)

In Romans 7 Paul speaks of being dead to the law in order to be married to Christ. Paul also speaks of being crucified with Christ so that the life of Jesus can take over. The two are directly related. When the outer man is crucified...dead...then the new creation is free to rise up for the heavenly walk.
We can't be married both to the outer man AND to Christ.
So then we can't be under the law and grace at the same time. Of course we can go back and forth between them through immaturity.

In conclusion, it is only as the outer man as a husk covering the seed...dies...that the life from within is set free. Jesus came to set us free.

 

[amadeus]

So then who is to do the spiritual shepherding? Priests? Pastors? No.

It takes a person who walks in the Spirit to guide others into that same walk. Reproducing a dead religious form only makes the church dead...

Everything revolves around the central control of the hireling...whose job it is to keep out all spirits. And when a certain church permits spirits entry, they can't discern which is of God and which is not. So either there are no spirits welcome or else ALL spirits are welcome. Have you ever read a steeple-house sign that said...all welcome?

Yes, indeed, no spirits allowed..., not even the Holy Spirit of God!

"Quench not the Spirit." But that is what the churches mostly teach people... just the opposite with their tightly enforced rules and regulations and their black and white statements of faith. Black and white but who is able to tell the difference? Surely the Leadership so carefully schooled must...? What did Paul say of himself?

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

If we have no clue what Christ was and is like, how are we able to look at our current leaders and know if they are of Christ or not?

Someone, who does not know what to say or do, cannot begin to teach by words or by example!

So if men are not following God's order...then whose order are people following?
...No one comes into the church already mature. The church is supposed to be reproducing Christ in its members so that the mature have the character of Christ...the full stature of Christ.

We know a tree by its fruit...

We, being the ones [if we are?] with the eyes to see of which Jesus spoke, would know a tree by its fruit, but without those special "eyes", we could not see even as through a darkened glass. We would be also blind and unable to perceive what is pleasing to God and what is not!

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20

People attend churches for decades without ever knowing anything of Christ in truth. It's all about theories and human observations and assessments. It's as if Jesus wasn't available to participate in the meetings Himself. It's as if Jesus was not yet resurrected. And this is normal where the outer man of the flesh is running the show.

People keep on saying that the answers are in the written scriptures... and they are, but in spite of their thoughts to the contrary, it is all in parables, parables which most of them still do not understand as they have learned so well to routinely quench the Holy Spirit of God:

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:10-15

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matt 13:34

 

[amadeus]

It’s not different at all. Both convince people to eat food offered to the idols of their fathers.

Lots of idols around effectively being worshipped but so seldom being recognized for what they are... no matter what they once may have been!

"He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brazen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." II Kings 18:4