state of the world..

[ScaliaFan]

lying
law breaking
fornication
abortion
hatred
persecution of the godly..

not taking care of people .. victims of war

The devil rules

false beliefs like once saved always saved

 

[junobet]

[SIZE=medium]Well, I think I kind of see your issue here. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If a belief in “Once saved Always Saved” makes people think that they can do whatever they want with no concern for God and neighbour, because they’re saved anyway, so “who cares?”, that would indeed contribute to the world being in a rather bad state.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But as I understand it – and please understand this as a friendly teasing caricature - the typical Calvinist constantly asks himself whether he is actually saved or whether he just thinks that he is saved and isn’t really saved. And when he tries to tell what he’s been predestined for, his only clue is Mt 7:16: “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]You will recognize them by their fruits.” So he will try very very hard not to sin, so that his good fruits will reassure him that he is actually saved. Which may either contribute to a better state of the world or the contrary, depending on how well such a person can discern what is a sin against God and neighbour and what is not.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I’m convinced that most people want to be good, be it for fear for their salvation or be it just for goodness’ sake. So apart from carnal temptations getting the better of us, the discernment of what is good and what is not, seems to be the main problem. In that we can only pray for Christ’s guidance.[/SIZE]

 

[River Jordan]

lying
law breaking
fornication
abortion
hatred
persecution of the godly..

not taking care of people .. victims of war

The devil rules

false beliefs like once saved always saved

I didn't realize those things were recent phenomena.

Meanwhile, here's a different perspective: 11 reasons why 2015 was a great year for humanity

1) We got a lot closer to global, universal education

2) Extreme poverty dropped below 10% — the lowest rate ever

3) More people got connected to the internet than ever before

4) Millions of people gained access to finance for the first time

5) AIDS deaths came down for the 15th year in a row

6) Malaria death rates are at an all time low

7) Polio is about to be eradicated forever

8) Fewer people went hungry this year than ever before

9) More people have access to clean water

10) Child mortality plunged for the 43rd year in a row

11) We reached a tipping point in the fight against climate change

 

[FHII]

Interesting post, River! Gotta think on that. But what does concern me is whether or not we as a soceity are getting closer to God or farther. I think the latter. This might be against data that may show more "converts" or growing memberships at Churches... I still believe we are getting farther away from truth.

 

[River Jordan]

I think it depends on one's perspective. I can understand how a white conservative Christian male living in the west might see things as getting worse. Christianity is in decline in the west, many social issues aren't going the way they'd like, etc. But by the same token I can understand how someone from a different background and country might see the opposite. Merely getting clean water, having money, having more of your kids survive and get an education....all of those basic life needs probably take a back seat to the number of Christians there are.

I guess when all your basic life needs are met and aren't under threat, that gives space to focus on something like the relative number of people in your religion. OTOH, when much of your life is about basic survival for you and your kids, suddenly the relative number of people in various religions doesn't seem quite so important.

 

[ScaliaFan]

[SIZE=medium]Well, I think I kind of see your issue here. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If a belief in “Once saved Always Saved” makes people think that they can do whatever they want with no concern for God and neighbour, because they’re saved anyway, so “who cares?”, that would indeed contribute to the world being in a rather bad state.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But as I understand it – and please understand this as a friendly teasing caricature - the typical Calvinist constantly asks himself whether he is actually saved or whether he just thinks that he is saved and isn’t really saved. And when he tries to tell what he’s been predestined for, his only clue is Mt 7:16: “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]You will recognize them by their fruits.” So he will try very very hard not to sin, so that his good fruits will reassure him that he is actually saved. Which may either contribute to a better state of the world or the contrary, depending on how well such a person can discern what is a sin against God and neighbour and what is not.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I’m convinced that most people want to be good, be it for fear for their salvation or be it just for goodness’ sake. So apart from carnal temptations getting the better of us, the discernment of what is good and what is not, seems to be the main problem. In that we can only pray for Christ’s guidance.[/SIZE]

i can't say i totally get this post of your
but if you believe you can sin and do no good works whatsoever and still make it to Heaven, you are under the influence of Satan

when someone asked Jesus what must he do to be saved, the first thing he said was Obey the commandments..

then he added something to the 10 Commandments, although it really wasn't an addition so much as a clarification of the 10 Cs

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

Love requires DOING things... See Mt 25:31-46... James 2:12

where it talks about ETERNAL punsihemnt for not helping your brethren who believe in Christ

 

[ScaliaFan]

more added to list

• lying politicians
• corrupt politicians

oh, that's right.. that's the only kind there are... LOL... except i can't LOL b/c its so pathetic...



well, Gary Johnson is not a liar

I'm voting for him

I would vote for Jesus but He had the sense to leave Earth centuries ago

He did, however, leave his Real Presence with us (as per Mt 28:20), found in HIs Church 24/7 (Catholic Church, that is)

I hear the souls in Purgatory are there as well... in the Real Presence.. "working out their salvation w/ fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12)

(explains a few things)

 

[junobet]

i can't say i totally get this post of your
but if you believe you can sin and do no good works whatsoever and still make it to Heaven, you are under the influence of Satan

when someone asked Jesus what must he do to be saved, the first thing he said was Obey the commandments..

then he added something to the 10 Commandments, although it really wasn't an addition so much as a clarification of the 10 Cs

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

Love requires DOING things... See Mt 25:31-46... James 2:12

where it talks about ETERNAL punsihemnt for not helping your brethren who believe in Christ

Sorry, but it seems you are not at all familiar with the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. One of the late Pope John Paul II’s favourite theologians was Hans Urs von Balthasar, a notorious universalist. I’m not saying Catholics must be universalist, but they certainly can be. And if you ask my local Priest by God's grace they certainly can sin and still go to heaven, especially when they get their last confession and sacraments. Which is why Catholics tend to have the better parties.
But I totally agree with you that love requires doing things. The question that we must ask though is: which things? How do we love our neighbour best? I fear that in very many political issues you and me would come to very different answers to that question, And I may have more answers in common with Pope Francis.
So maybe we should do what the Catholic church actually suggests: follow the primacy of conscience and don’t wait for purgatory, but each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling in this life.

 

[ScaliaFan]

I didn't realize those things were recent phenomena.

Meanwhile, here's a different perspective: 11 reasons why 2015 was a great year for humanity

1) We got a lot closer to global, universal education

2) Extreme poverty dropped below 10% — the lowest rate ever

3) More people got connected to the internet than ever before

4) Millions of people gained access to finance for the first time

5) AIDS deaths came down for the 15th year in a row

6) Malaria death rates are at an all time low

7) Polio is about to be eradicated forever

8) Fewer people went hungry this year than ever before

9) More people have access to clean water

10) Child mortality plunged for the 43rd year in a row

11) We reached a tipping point in the fight against climate change

and in 2015, approximately 1.2 million children were murdered

in the womb. Yeh, we are making progress, for sure

 

[ScaliaFan]

Sorry, but it seems you are not at all familiar with the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. One of the late Pope John Paul II’s favourite theologians was Hans Urs von Balthasar, a notorious universalist. I’m not saying Catholics must be universalist, but they certainly can be. And if you ask my local Priest by God's grace they certainly can sin and still go to heaven, especially when they get their last confession and sacraments. Which is why Catholics tend to have the better parties.
But I totally agree with you that love requires doing things. The question that we must ask though is: which things? How do we love our neighbour best? I fear that in very many political issues you and me would come to very different answers to that question, And I may have more answers in common with Pope Francis.
So maybe we should do what the Catholic church actually suggests: follow the primacy of conscience and don’t wait for purgatory, but each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling in this life.

i never suggested waiting until Purgatory. In fact i would say do the opposite. The saints tell us that if we wait to do our purging here for later.. we will end up paying (metaphor) a million dollars for what we could have gotten for a penny

I think it is Mt 18:23 that is about Purgatory, tho the word is not used.. and there are others.. 1 Cor 3:15.. Maccabees 12:44 which speaks of sacrificing and praying for the dead "that they be loosed from their sins" A lot of people forget that Christianity began with Judaism (bk of Maccabees was thrown out by Luther, but accepted by Catholics and some sects of the Jews).

Jesus did not throw out all of the OT as some noncatholics think.. In fact if you go by the Bible alone (i do not) you will find Jesus speaking VERY very little about changes He wanted to make from OT to New T


:mellow:

 

[junobet]

i never suggested waiting until Purgatory. In fact i would say do the opposite. The saints tell us that if we wait to do our purging here for later.. we will end up paying (metaphor) a million dollars for what we could have gotten for a penny

I think it is Mt 18:23 that is about Purgatory, tho the word is not used.. and there are others.. 1 Cor 3:15.. Maccabees 12:44 which speaks of sacrificing and praying for the dead "that they be loosed from their sins" A lot of people forget that Christianity began with Judaism (bk of Maccabees was thrown out by Luther, but accepted by Catholics and some sects of the Jews).

Jesus did not throw out all of the OT as some noncatholics think.. In fact if you go by the Bible alone (i do not) you will find Jesus speaking VERY very little about changes He wanted to make from OT to New T


:mellow:

Erm, the OT was actually rather mild on some of the vices you listed, in parts it even could be seen as encouraging some of them. But it does of course also tell us to speak out for the oppressed and to care for the weak and poor, to love our neighbor and to reach out to our enemies. Those are the bits that Jesus draws our attention to.

Be aware that hell isn’t really an Old Testament concept, nor is life after death for that matter. The latter idea came up rather late in Judaism and was still very much debated in Jesus’ time (see Mt 22:23).

Of course it takes a lot of imagination to find the Catholic concept of purgatory referenced in any bit of the Bible, Old or New Testament. But - putting my Lutheran reservations aside - I must say I actually quite like the metaphor of a cleansing fire for our souls.
So seeing that you respect your Catholic Saints, maybe you want to consider what Peter Chrysologus (“Doctor of Homilies”, c. 380 – c. 450 AD) had to say about Purgatory:

“That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you have paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt.”

Of course Chrysologus refers to the Parable about an Unforgiving Servant (Mt. 18:21-35) in which Jesus makes it very clear that being forgiven, we also should forgive. IMHO forgiveness is also a major clue as to to how to begin making the world a better place. Ours should indeed be a "ministry of reconciliation" (2 Cor 15:11-21) , not a ministry of vengeful finger-pointing, don't you think?
​

 

[ScaliaFan]

Of course it takes a lot of imagination to find the Catholic concept of purgatory referenced in any bit of the Bible, Old or New Testament. But - putting my Lutheran reservations aside - I must say I actually quite like the metaphor of a cleansing fire for our souls.
So seeing that you respect your Catholic Saints, maybe you want to consider what Peter Chrysologus (“Doctor of Homilies”, c. 380 – c. 450 AD) had to say about Purgatory:

not really. Luther threw out the book of Maccabbees from the Bible.. and wanted to throw out James, Revelation and Hebrews and one other i can't recall

the book of Maccabees tells us that the soldiers prayed for their dead lost in battle.. that "they may be loosed from their sins"

and you anticatholics... noncatholics thought it was all over at death. It was never so long ago

 

[junobet]

not really. Luther threw out the book of Maccabbees from the Bible.. and wanted to throw out James, Revelation and Hebrews and one other i can't recall

the book of Maccabees tells us that the soldiers prayed for their dead lost in battle.. that "they may be loosed from their sins"

and you anticatholics... noncatholics thought it was all over at death. It was never so long ago

[SIZE=medium]I hope you did not get the impression that I’m anti-Catholic. Quite the contrary: some of the best Christians I know are devout Catholics.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point was that it is highly unlikely that you got many of your ideas on morals, hell and purgatory from the Old Testament. It’s the part of the Bible that needs a parental advisory sticker! If all one had to go on was the OT, one might easily get the impression that fornication, lying, divorce, abortion, infanticide and genocide are pretty much ok with God. And one would think that there’s a “sheol”, a realm of the dead, where both the good and the wicked go and where nothing much happens. Rather late in Judaism – and yes, I suppose that must have been at around the times of the Maccabean Revolt ([/SIZE][SIZE=medium]167 to 160 BC[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]) or a bit after – Pharisaic Judaism started to get the idea of a resurrection of the dead, based on merely two verses in the entire Tanach whilst the Sadducees thought the idea of an afterlife is absolutely nuts and sided with Ecclesiastes 9:5: "“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.” . In this debate between Pharisees and Sadducees Jesus took the Pharisees’ side. Again see: http://biblehub.com/parallelgospels/The_Sadducees_Test_Jesus_about_the_Resurrection.htm. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The reason that Luther did not include 1+2 Maccabees in his Canon is not that it may hint at purgatory and the selling of indulgences. The Luther Bible still has them as apokrypha. But being a conscientious scholar Luther translated the OT from the original Hebrew Tanach rather than from the translated Greek Septuagint, that the Catholic Latin Vulgata is translated from. And the Hebrew Tanach doesn’t have 1+2 Maccabees. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And of course Protestants believe in the resurrection of the dead and eternal life for the very same reason Catholics do: they read the New Testament![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]…[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Anyway, enough of my awful nit-picking and back to your opening post’s topic: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Despite the good points RiverJordan made, you and me seem to be in agreement that the world is in a rather bad state and that the love of Christ requires us to do something about it. What do you suggest we do?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Just brainstorming my first suggestion would be buying fair trade products. There are some very good Catholic run fair trade shops over here in Germany. They started in the 80ies and lit a spark: by now every supermarket offers fair trade coffee, cocoa etc. You have to be careful of the labelling though, not all are really fair.[/SIZE]

 

[H. Richard]

Amazing !!!!

So most of the posters are sinless, right? They have made the choice to not sin in the flesh so that they can be righteous, right? Their work at being righteous will get them into heaven, right?

So then the conclusion is that we save ourselves by what we do, right?

It is a pity that most do not understand Romans 7 which describes the condition of a child of God. They completely miss the last two verse in that chapter. To the strawman builders I say this, Just as in Romans 7 no child of God """"WANTS to sin"""". But they do not lie to God about their sinful condition as the religious do. They know that the only way to get to heaven is the way Jesus told Paul. It is simple faith in the grace of God. For the slow at heart it means to place ALL your belief in, faith in, trust in, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross where He shed His blood to pay for ALL the sins of the world. That means all the sins of the world have already been paid for. But saying this will bring about those who build strawmen that a child of God wants to sin.

These same self righteous people who build the strawman will say that if they sin they can repent and all will be paid for by their act of repentance. Their work of repentance is their get right with God repentance card. So they can sin all they want to and then pull out their repentance card and get it punched.

I am not against good works of charity and love. But those will not give a person righteousness and get a person into heaven. God has already said the a man's good works are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
NKJV

 

[junobet]

Amazing !!!!

So most of the posters are sinless, right? They have made the choice to not sin in the flesh so that they can be righteous, right? Their work at being righteous will get them into heaven, right?

So then the conclusion is that we save ourselves by what we do, right?

It is a pity that most do not understand Romans 7 which describes the condition of a child of God. They completely miss the last two verse in that chapter. To the strawman builders I say this, Just as in Romans 7 no child of God """"WANTS to sin"""". But they do not lie to God about their sinful condition as the religious do. They know that the only way to get to heaven is the way Jesus told Paul. It is simple faith in the grace of God. For the slow at heart it means to place ALL your belief in, faith in, trust in, confidence in the work of Jesus on the cross where He shed His blood to pay for ALL the sins of the world. That means all the sins of the world have already been paid for. But saying this will bring about those who build strawmen that a child of God wants to sin.

These same self righteous people who build the strawman will say that if they sin they can repent and all will be paid for by their act of repentance. Their work of repentance is their get right with God repentance card. So they can sin all they want to and then pull out their repentance card and get it punched.

I am not against good works of charity and love. But those will not give a person righteousness and get a person into heaven. God has already said the a man's good works are as filthy rags.

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
NKJV

H. Richard,
I can’t say I’ve read the entire forum, but in this thread at least, I haven’t seen anybody claiming they are sinless.

Nor have I seen anybody claiming that helping an old Lady across the street etc. will get them any bonus points for a ticket to heaven.
I’m not quite sure how well versed ScaliaFan is in Catholic Doctrine, but both the Roman Catholic Church and my own Lutheran denomination believe that we are saved by grace alone and that none of our good deeds are our own merit, but the merit of Christ working in us. For a more detailed explanation see our churches “Joint Declaration On the Doctrine Of Justification”: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[ScaliaFan]

[SIZE=medium]I hope you did not get the impression that I’m anti-Catholic. Quite the contrary: some of the best Christians I know are devout Catholics.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]My point was that it is highly unlikely that you got many of your ideas on morals, hell and purgatory from the Old Testament. It’s the part of the Bible that needs a parental advisory sticker! If all one had to go on was the OT, one might easily get the impression that fornication, lying, divorce, abortion, infanticide and genocide are pretty much ok with God. And one would think that there’s a “sheol”, a realm of the dead, where both the good and the wicked go and where nothing much happens. Rather late in Judaism – and yes, I suppose that must have been at around the times of the Maccabean Revolt ([/SIZE][SIZE=medium]167 to 160 BC[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]) or a bit after – Pharisaic Judaism started to get the idea of a resurrection of the dead, based on merely two verses in the entire Tanach whilst the Sadducees thought the idea of an afterlife is absolutely nuts and sided with Ecclesiastes 9:5: "“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.” . In this debate between Pharisees and Sadducees Jesus took the Pharisees’ side. Again see: http://biblehub.com/parallelgospels/The_Sadducees_Test_Jesus_about_the_Resurrection.htm. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The reason that Luther did not include 1+2 Maccabees in his Canon is not that it may hint at purgatory and the selling of indulgences. The Luther Bible still has them as apokrypha. But being a conscientious scholar Luther translated the OT from the original Hebrew Tanach rather than from the translated Greek Septuagint, that the Catholic Latin Vulgata is translated from. And the Hebrew Tanach doesn’t have 1+2 Maccabees. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]And of course Protestants believe in the resurrection of the dead and eternal life for the very same reason Catholics do: they read the New Testament![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]…[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Anyway, enough of my awful nit-picking and back to your opening post’s topic: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Despite the good points RiverJordan made, you and me seem to be in agreement that the world is in a rather bad state and that the love of Christ requires us to do something about it. What do you suggest we do?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Just brainstorming my first suggestion would be buying fair trade products. There are some very good Catholic run fair trade shops over here in Germany. They started in the 80ies and lit a spark: by now every supermarket offers fair trade coffee, cocoa etc. You have to be careful of the labelling though, not all are really fair.[/SIZE]

i dont have much time right now, have read some of this

but it is interesting.. when Noah entered the ark, it was wtih his 3 sons and their wives. They only had ONE wife each. Then there came Solomon with his 800 wives and concubines!!! Blow me away! How could God approve of such a thing.. and yet Jesus changed a lot of the OT ... said that anyone who divorces someone and marries another commits adultery... said that it was never intended t here be divorce, much less polygamy

In any case... i forgot something else i wanted to say... but the point is that obviously we cannot accept everything from the OT.. and of course the Catholic Church does not

so.. uh... I'm getting a little overhwlemed here... what is the main point?

 

[ScaliaFan]

H. Richard,
I can’t say I’ve read the entire forum, but in this thread at least, I haven’t seen anybody claiming they are sinless.

one of our candidates, a front-runner says he is without sin.. or might as well say it.. said he didn't have to ask God for any forgiveness!

 

[lforrest]

one of our candidates, a front-runner says he is without sin.. or might as well say it.. said he didn't have to ask God for any forgiveness!

Yeah, that was a big turnoff. I also imagine any revelation of impropriety would be used by the left. He isn't comfortable enough with being a Christian that he would quote or paraphrase scripture to show how all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

 

[junobet]

i dont have much time right now, have read some of this

but it is interesting.. when Noah entered the ark, it was wtih his 3 sons and their wives. They only had ONE wife each. Then there came Solomon with his 800 wives and concubines!!! Blow me away! How could God approve of such a thing.. and yet Jesus changed a lot of the OT ... said that anyone who divorces someone and marries another commits adultery... said that it was never intended t here be divorce, much less polygamy

In any case... i forgot something else i wanted to say... but the point is that obviously we cannot accept everything from the OT.. and of course the Catholic Church does not

so.. uh... I'm getting a little overhwlemed here... what is the main point?

[SIZE=medium]Point A was me feeling the smug need to correct your misunderstanding that the OT teaches the kind of proverbial fire and brimstone that you seem to want to preach. However angry its prophets could get, the authors of the OT did not have any notions of hell yet, let alone our notion of "family values".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Point B – the main point - was to give this thread a positive spin by asking what you think we could do to make the world a better place. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]IMHO preaching fire and brimstone won’t work with guys like the frontrunner you’ve mentioned, obviously he's too busy enjoying this life to worry about the next. And of course I think that many of the policies Trump suggested will make the world worse rather than better. But in the long run the suggestions that Paul made in Romans 12 might help:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]I therefore urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercies, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices that are holy and pleasing to God, for this is the reasonable way for you to worship.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]a[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=small]2 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Do not be conformed to this world, but continuously be transformed by the renewing of your minds so that you may be able to determine what God’s will is—what is proper,[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]b[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] pleasing, and perfect.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]3 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For by the grace given to me I ask every one of you not to think of yourself more highly than you should think, rather to think of yourself with sober judgment on the measure of faith that God has assigned each of you. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For we have many parts in one body, but these parts do not all have the same function. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]In the same way, even though we are many people, we are one body in the Messiah[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]c[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] and individual parts connected to each other. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]We have different gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your gift is prophecy, use your gift[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]d[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] in proportion to your faith. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]7 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If your gift is serving, devote yourself to serving others.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]e[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] If it is teaching, devote yourself to teaching others.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]f[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=small]8 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If it is encouraging, devote yourself to encouraging others.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]g[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] If it is sharing, share generously.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]h[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] If it is leading, lead enthusiastically.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]i[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] If it is helping, help cheerfully.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]j[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]9 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Your love must be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]10 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Be devoted to each other with mutual affection. Excel at showing respect for each other. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]11 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Never be lazy in showing such devotion. Be on fire with the Spirit. Serve the Lord.[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]k[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=small]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Be joyful in hope, patient in trouble, and persistent in prayer. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Supply the needs of the saints. Extend hospitality to strangers.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Bless those who persecute you. Keep on blessing them, and never curse them. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Rejoice with those who are rejoicing. Cry with those who are crying. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Live in harmony with each other. Do not be arrogant, but associate with humble people. Do not think that you are wiser than you really are.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Do not pay anyone back evil for evil, but[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]l[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] focus your thoughts on what is right in the sight of all people. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]If possible, so far as it depends on you, live in peace with all people. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Do not take revenge, dear friends, but leave room for God’s[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]m[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=medium] wrath. For it is written, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will pay them back, declares the Lord.”[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]n[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=small]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But “if your enemy is hungry, feed him. For if he is thirsty, give him a drink. If you do this, you will pile burning coals on his head.”[/SIZE][SIZE=small][[/SIZE][SIZE=small]o[/SIZE][SIZE=small]][/SIZE][SIZE=small]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Do not be conquered by evil, but conquer evil with good.”[/SIZE]

 

[H. Richard]

H. Richard,
I can’t say I’ve read the entire forum, but in this thread at least, I haven’t seen anybody claiming they are sinless.

Nor have I seen anybody claiming that helping an old Lady across the street etc. will get them any bonus points for a ticket to heaven.
I’m not quite sure how well versed ScaliaFan is in Catholic Doctrine, but both the Roman Catholic Church and my own Lutheran denomination believe that we are saved by grace alone and that none of our good deeds are our own merit, but the merit of Christ working in us. For a more detailed explanation see our churches “Joint Declaration On the Doctrine Of Justification”: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

You mean to tell me that all those on forums that teach "if a person sins they are lost" are not teaching law?

If a person on a forum is preaching the law then they are indicating that they keep those laws They quote what was taught by Jesus and the 12 to those under the law as if it is applicatory to those that are not under the law. They teach that what James said to those under the law, "faith without works is dead" as if it is compatible with 'faith in the work of God on the cross". Only the religious want to say James and Paul taught the same things. They have to in order to keep people enslaved to their religions. they do not want people to feel free because then there would be no place for religions.

In simple words they teach that "faith plus a man' works" is the same as "faith in Jesus' work on the cross" One way is confidence of the flesh in religious works and the other is confidence in Jesus' work. They are not the same.

Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

By the way, no one on a forum will openly say they are sinless, but they certainly indicate they are. If that is not the case then why are they teaching religious law? Why would they teach others not to sin while they are sinning too? The religious have earned their name of being hypocrites.