Strong Women In Today's World

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Webers_Home

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Gen 3:16 . . and he shall rule over you.

That is probably one of the most hated verses in the whole Bible. Eve's
daughters do not like to be subjugated to and/or dominated by men. It
really goes against their grain; and if the women's suffrage movement that
took place in America's early 1900's were to be thoroughly analyzed, it
would not surprise me that women's right to vote wasn't really an equality
issue: it was a rebellion against male domination; which of course is to be
expected in a world gone mad with evil.

The current "strong woman" attitude is no doubt another aspect of that
same kind of rebellion; which in reality is not only a standing up to men, but
also a standing up to God seeing as how Gen 3:16 is a divine order rather
than human.

Gen 3:16 isn't restricted to marriage. It regulates women's place in Christian
churches too-- all Christian churches.

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the
churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the
Law says." (1Cor 14:33-35)

"Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. I do not
allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain
quiet." (1Tim 2:11-15)

How long the Adams cohabited sans the imposition of a gender hierarchy
isn't stated; but apparently there was no evident need for it prior to the
forbidden fruit incident; just as there was no evident need of a suitable
companion for Adam till he failed to find one from among the animal
kingdom.

My guess is that the measure is mostly to discourage wives from making
life-changing decisions on their own, independent of their husband's feelings
about it. I mean; if Eve had first consulted with her husband to see what he
thought of the Serpent's discussion before tasting the fruit, things may have
turned out quite differently.
_
 

Windmillcharge

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What is objected to, yet is also wanted is male leadership in marriage.
It is because many women make poor choices about who they marry, basing a decicion on feelings rather than proven ability to provide, lead and care. That fault free divorce was brought in.

for an article on leadership see:-
Wayne Grudem explains male leadership in marriage
 

soul man

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What is objected to, yet is also wanted is male leadership in marriage.
It is because many women make poor choices about who they marry, basing a decicion on feelings rather than proven ability to provide, lead and care. That fault free divorce was brought in.

for an article on leadership see:-
Wayne Grudem explains male leadership in marriage
How would you explain your sumation against scripture "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female" IN CHRIST.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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Gen 3:16 . . and he shall rule over you.

That is probably one of the most hated verses in the whole Bible. Eve's
daughters do not like to be subjugated to and/or dominated by men. It
really goes against their grain; and if the women's suffrage movement that
took place in America's early 1900's were to be thoroughly analyzed, it
would not surprise me that women's right to vote wasn't really an equality
issue: it was a rebellion against male domination; which of course is to be
expected in a world gone mad with evil.

The current "strong woman" attitude is no doubt another aspect of that
same kind of rebellion; which in reality is not only a standing up to men, but
also a standing up to God seeing as how Gen 3:16 is a divine order rather
than human.

Gen 3:16 isn't restricted to marriage. It regulates women's place in Christian
churches too-- all Christian churches.

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the
churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the
Law says." (1Cor 14:33-35)

"Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. I do not
allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain
quiet." (1Tim 2:11-15)

How long the Adams cohabited sans the imposition of a gender hierarchy
isn't stated; but apparently there was no evident need for it prior to the
forbidden fruit incident; just as there was no evident need of a suitable
companion for Adam till he failed to find one from among the animal
kingdom.

My guess is that the measure is mostly to discourage wives from making
life-changing decisions on their own, independent of their husband's feelings
about it. I mean; if Eve had first consulted with her husband to see what he
thought of the Serpent's discussion before tasting the fruit, things may have
turned out quite differently.
_

Is your wife not seen as strong? Then maybe there is a problem in the way man sees the union and roles of Christ and His Church. A man(as head), as Leader, is to provide strength to the weaker vessel. As Christ and His church, HE (the husband) enables and infuses his own flesh with strength to represent the union of the two well. No man destroys and deprives his own flesh. That is Suicide and Blant sabotage of a perfect model which is to represent Christ and His church. Not the world. How many times has Christ told His church that She is useless, has no place or value other than to set mute and dumb? You know how the joke goes: the perfect wife is the one that is mute so she can’t ratchet her jaws constantly, nagging in a man’s ears. Nope. There is a seriously messed up lie circulated by Satan...that Jesus Christ tells a woman to sit down and shut up and to make Him a sandwich. Scripture has been misinterpreted to the extreme. How often has Jesus Christ told His body, She(His body)is responsible for codling Him, stroking His ego, clothing Him, and feeding Him. I heard a pastor once say it like this: you want to know the character of a man; then look at His wife. Is she withered and caving in on herself, her shoulders dropped in brokenness and defeat? Or is she strong and thriving by her husband’s side as another pair of hands in the ministry of God?

I don’t know...is that the church? Is that her role today? Broken, depleted of strength, no voice, and withering away? I have absolutely no problem with ‘and he shall rule over you’ but it depends on the ruler: is the model after Satan(pride) or Christ (love and mercy)? Yes, you have struck a nerve. I believe it is the thorn in my flesh; a distorted model that loves the degrading dirty jokes about women and their worth to God. Ive done the weak and submissive. I’ve never worked in a public place. But, come on men...give your wives something worth coming underneath and following...As Him!
 
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Helen

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Is your wife not seen as strong? Then maybe there is a problem in the way man sees the union and roles of Christ and His Church. A man(as head), as Leader, is to provide strength to the weaker vessel. As Christ and His church, HE (the husband) enables and infuses his own flesh with strength to represent the union of the two well. No man destroys and deprives his own flesh. That is Suicide and Blant sabotage of a perfect model which is to represent Christ and His church. Not the world. How many times has Christ told His church that She is useless, has no place or value other than to set mute and dumb? You know how the joke goes: the perfect wife is the one that is mute so she can’t ratchet her jaws constantly, nagging in a man’s ears. Nope. There is a seriously messed up lie circulated by Satan...that Jesus Christ tells a woman to sit down and shut up and to make Him a sandwich. Scripture has been misinterpreted to the extreme. How often has Jesus Christ told His body, She(His body)is responsible for codling Him, stroking His ego, clothing Him, and feeding Him. I heard a pastor once say it like this: you want to know the character of a man; then look at His wife. Is she withered and caving in on herself, her shoulders dropped in brokenness and defeat? Or is she strong and thriving by her husband’s side as another pair of hands in the ministry of God?

I don’t know...is that the church? Is that her role today? Broken, depleted of strength, no voice, and withering away? I have absolutely no problem with ‘and he shall rule over you’ but it depends on the ruler: is the model after Satan(pride) or Christ (love and mercy)? Yes, you have struck a nerve. I believe it is the thorn in my flesh; a distorted model that loves the degrading dirty jokes about women and their worth to God. Ive done the weak and submissive. I’ve never worked in a public place. But, come on men...give your wives something worth coming underneath and following...As Him!

Excellent post Victory...well said.

The OP is written as if men are born infallible..and have all wisdom. :D
In our house my husband is good at the things he is good at...but as his helpmeet...I look after all the finances...taxes and such like...as he is the first to say that "it is not his thing"...yet spiritually and emotionally he is my rock and strength in time of trouble...he is a strong prayer partner, and we make our decisions together.

Ecc 4:9-12
9 "Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour.
10 For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to help him up.
11 Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one be warm alone?
12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken."

Bless you ...Helen :)
 

Hidden In Him

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How many times has Christ told His church that She is useless, has no place or value other than to sit mute and dumb?

WOW! That's what's called a Zinger, sister!
How often has Jesus Christ told His body, She (His body) is responsible for codling Him, stroking His ego,

Another one!
I heard a pastor once say it like this: you want to know the character of a man; then look at His wife. Is she withered and caving in on herself, her shoulders dropped in brokenness and defeat? Or is she strong and thriving by her husband’s side as another pair of hands in the ministry of God?

Glory to God! Whoever this pastor was, Victory, he was on the right track. You were blessed to have heard him teach.
I believe it is ... a distorted model that loves the degrading dirty jokes about women and their worth to God. I've done the weak and submissive. I’ve never worked in a public place. But, come on men...give your wives something worth coming underneath and following...As Him!

Winner of the month, as far as I'm concerned. There was a time in my younger years when I wanted a woman to be submissive to me, but it was because I was a weak leader, and not truly motivated by love or self-sacrifice. I am not that man anymore. Any man who truly loves his wife loves her as himself, and thus doesn't want her to feel subjugated or second class. He wants her to feel as though they are one completely, and that she is exalted because of it.

Should he take the lead? Certainly. But with the intent of raising them both to a place of exaltation she never dreamed of before, and this is something not many seem to grasp. The tenor is always how women need to be subjugated rather than exalted in him. But as you point out, any Christian theology that teaches how the church needs to remain dumb, mute, degraded and debased doesn't seem to go over as well. Maybe it's because now the teaching applies to all, and suddenly men sense there may be something wrong with a teaching that instead of elevating them debases them.
 

Hidden In Him

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apparently there was no evident need for it prior to the
forbidden fruit incident

Greetings, Webers Home, and blessings to you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ.

Let me engage you a little bit here. I'd like to know what your response would be. I agree there was no need for gender hierarchy before the fall, through which the curse came upon man as a result. But now, Christ redeemed his bride from that curse, and raised her up to be seated with Him in heavenly places. Was she not given a place of great honor? And if this is true of Christ and the church, does it not also apply to husbands and wives? If so, then why?
 
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Helen

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WOW! That's what's called a Zinger, sister!


Another one!


Glory to God! Whoever this pastor was, Victory, he was on the right track. You were blessed to have heard him teach.


Winner of the month, as far as I'm concerned. There was a time in my younger years when I wanted a woman to be submissive to me, but it was because I was a weak leader, and not truly motivated by love or self-sacrifice. I am not that man anymore. Any man who truly loves his wife loves her as himself, and thus doesn't want her to feel subjugated or second class. He wants her to feel as though they are one completely, and that she is exalted because of it.

Should he take the lead? Certainly. But with the intent of raising them both to a place of exaltation she never dreamed of before, and this is something not many seem to grasp. The tenor is always how women need to be subjugated rather than exalted in him. But as you point out, any Christian theology that teaches how the church needs to remain dumb, mute, degraded and debased doesn't seem to go over as well. Maybe it's because now the teaching applies to all, and suddenly men sense there may be something wrong with a teaching that instead of elevating them debases them.

Well @VictoryinJesus post was wonderful...but you have a close runner up here ..it gets my vote. :D
 

Webers_Home

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I agree there was no need for gender hierarchy before the fall

I'm confident a gender hierarchy was needful all along just as there was
always a need for Adam's suitable companion. However, the need for a
gender hierarchy wasn't evident until Eve acted independent of her husband;
just as Adam's need of a suitable companion wasn't evident until he had no
luck finding one in the animal kingdom.


Christ redeemed his bride from that curse, and raised her up to be seated
with Him in heavenly places. Was she not given a place of great honor? And
if this is true of Christ and the church, does it not also apply to husbands
and wives? If so, then why?

It's not uncommon to find skeptics quoting Gal 3:28 in an effort to
circumvent a gender hierarchy for Christians; but the apostle Paul who wrote
that passage is the same apostle Paul who wrote several other passages
defending, and even insisting upon, a gender hierarchy for Christians. You'd
think people would have better sense than to refute Paul by quoting Paul;
nevertheless I catch them at it all the time.
_
 
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Hidden In Him

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It's not uncommon to find people quoting Paul at Gal 3:28 in an effort to
circumvent gender hierarchy; but the Paul who wrote Gal 3:28 is the
same Paul who wrote several other passages defending gender hierarchy. I
hardly think it sensible to quote Paul's writings to refute Paul's writings.

But if we abrogate certain passages based on assumption, won't we end up with a skewed theology? And understand, I wasn't citing Galatians 3:28. I was making reference to the fact that Christ has redeemed us from the curse, and if Christ redeemed his bride from that curse and raised her up to be seated with Him in heavenly places, did that not give her a place of great honor? And if this is true of Christ and the church, does it not also apply to husbands and wives as well?

If you agree, then I wanted to know in what way you agree?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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WOW! That's what's called a Zinger, sister!


Another one!


Glory to God! Whoever this pastor was, Victory, he was on the right track. You were blessed to have heard him teach.


Winner of the month, as far as I'm concerned. There was a time in my younger years when I wanted a woman to be submissive to me, but it was because I was a weak leader, and not truly motivated by love or self-sacrifice. I am not that man anymore. Any man who truly loves his wife loves her as himself, and thus doesn't want her to feel subjugated or second class. He wants her to feel as though they are one completely, and that she is exalted because of it.

Should he take the lead? Certainly. But with the intent of raising them both to a place of exaltation she never dreamed of before, and this is something not many seem to grasp. The tenor is always how women need to be subjugated rather than exalted in him. But as you point out, any Christian theology that teaches how the church needs to remain dumb, mute, degraded and debased doesn't seem to go over as well. Maybe it's because now the teaching applies to all, and suddenly men sense there may be something wrong with a teaching that instead of elevating them debases them.

I appreciate the kind words from you and ByGrace. But after sitting a while today and considering some truths in my life, some obvious truths, I have to say I may be completely wrong. This isn’t going to be liked but in looking around at the brokenness and weakness of God’s people, I am left with “is this the kind of bride you want? Is this your church?” Despised, rejected, weak, and shattered. I still don’t know the answer to that question but the real church I see, the real authentic caring and loving people of God: One word describes their character...humility.

“strong woman in today’s world” is that the bride of Christ? Is that the church? Does She hold Her tongue from speaking poison? Does it yet appear what the church will be?

Acts 8:33
[33] In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

1 Corinthians 4:8-16
[8] Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. [11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; [12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: [13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. [14] I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you . [15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

“We are fools”
“We are weak”
“We are despised”
...yet Paul says, now go do the same.
 
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Hidden In Him

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I appreciate the kind words from you and ByGrace. But after sitting a while today and considering some truths in my life, some obvious truths, I have to say I may be completely wrong. This isn’t going to be liked but in looking around at the brokenness and weakness of God’s people, I am left with “is this the kind of bride you want? Is this your church?” Despised, rejected, weak, and shattered. I still don’t know the answer to that question but the real church I see, the real authentic caring and loving people of God: One word describes their character...humility.

If I understand what you are driving at, the distinction here is drawing a line between ourselves and Christ (Galatians 2:20, Colossians 1:27). I interpret the words "strong women," when interpreted in this light, to be women in Christ. Just as the church must die to her old life to be transformed into the newness of life in Christ, so too is a Christian woman called to do so in marriage. This is how the words, "and the two shall become one flesh" become fulfilled. It is more than a physical thing. They are intended to become one on all levels, just as the church is to adopt the mind of Christ, the heart of Christ, the will of Christ.

So do you feel that many have not yet reached the place of brokenness yet, where they can then be exalted in Him?
 
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Hidden In Him

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1 Corinthians 4:8-16
[8] Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. [11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; [12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: [13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. [14] I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you . [15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

“We are fools”
“We are weak”
“We are despised”
...yet Paul says, now go do the same.

Keep in mind too, Victory, this was being taught to the Corinthians because they were having problems with pride. Paul also taught in other places that if believers embraced humility their shame was turned to their glory (1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 2 Corinthians 6:10, others).
 

Truth

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Let us return to Our Savior's Word's, concerning divorce! In the beginning it was not So! A man leaves his parents and is joined unto His Wife, and THEY become ONE Flesh! 100% Man + 100% Woman. !st Corinthians 11: 3 - But I want you to know that the Head of every Man is Christ, the Head of every Woman is [Her] Man, and the Head of Christ is God! A man never relinquishes his authority to any other man, including Preachers, and a Woman never relinquishes her Authority to any different man, If ether, man or woman does this they dishonor their Head!
We see this in Churches today, A Pasteur will assume Authority over men in the Assembly. when it comes to the Family the man never allows another man to interfere, then some times a woman will turn to a Pasteur about marital problems, so called counseling which is relinquishing her Authority to another man! The man dishonors Christ, the woman dishonors her man, this is the only order of Authority accepted by God!
And this is Spiritual Authority not like being a ruler with an Iron Fist. Christ, Man Woman, and God over All! { Spiritual Covering }
 

Windmillcharge

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How would you explain your sumation against scripture "there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female" IN CHRIST.
That God does not make those distinctions when he chooses whom he saves. But that there are distinctions here in this life, some are like male and female are biological others are social.
 

soul man

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I appreciate the kind words from you and ByGrace. But after sitting a while today and considering some truths in my life, some obvious truths, I have to say I may be completely wrong. This isn’t going to be liked but in looking around at the brokenness and weakness of God’s people, I am left with “is this the kind of bride you want? Is this your church?” Despised, rejected, weak, and shattered. I still don’t know the answer to that question but the real church I see, the real authentic caring and loving people of God: One word describes their character...humility.

“strong woman in today’s world” is that the bride of Christ? Is that the church? Does She hold Her tongue from speaking poison? Does it yet appear what the church will be?

Acts 8:33
[33] In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

1 Corinthians 4:8-16
[8] Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. [11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; [12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: [13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. [14] I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you . [15] For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. [16] Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

“We are fools”
“We are weak”
“We are despised”
...yet Paul says, now go do the same.

Don't go by completely what you see or hear. When we get it figured out God always has 7 thousands we know nothing about ( OT analogy ).
As well as these forums they are not a very good comparison to what is going on in the body.
 
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soul man

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That God does not make those distinctions when he chooses whom he saves. But that there are distinctions here in this life, some are like male and female are biological others are social.

We are not talking about salvation. We are talking about men and women over each other when the reality is, niether is over another. You can not separate natural life and spiritual life. The OP is an age old arguement that has no relevance to who we are. Fact of the matter remains if believers could see the Christ in each other (husbands-wives) there would be alot less trouble. Because religion fails to bring the gospel message to its full intent, relationships go lacking and it will continue until it is realized by the believer.
 
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kit

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Ruth and Esther have always stood out as strong women whom God blessed.