Stumbling Block verses

[Episkopos]

With this thread I hope to bring light and clarity to an issue that few ever consider as a problem..that is..how by adding in our own understanding (without a further thought about it) we can invert the meaning of the bible from being truth into becoming a lie.

I am not speaking of a willful blindness that people engage in to justify themselves through a vain religious belief system. Surely, these will pipe in to justify an incorrect notion....for their own advantage. No, I'm not writing to these. I'm writing to they who could not realize how a simple deviation in the understanding of a biblical text could spoil even the innocence of a seeking heart. We must factor in, not just the inaccuracies of a bible translation...but also the influence of "the power of the air" that seeks to confound seekers of God away from their desired objective which is according to the truth.

So what I'm saying is that there is far more to the verses I intend to list than meets the human eye...or the human understanding.

Jesus Christ is BOTH the cornerstone of the truth and the stumbling block away from the truth. It all depends on the way we take it...how and why we believe what we do. It is the way we believe...the power behind what we do that either wins the day...or confuses and obscures the truth so that we live or die in the war between the truth and the lie.

When we read the bible it cannot be through the lens of self...a seeking for personal benefit. Actually we must read with the idea of glorifying God...not self.

With these things in mind I wish to proceed with a verse that would seem to back up a false way of seeing things...when so many other verses say just the opposite. Of course a lie gets way more traction than even a great weight of truth. Why? It is because our carnal minds tend to gravitate to that which pleases it. The carnal mind also has an uncanny ability to ignore truth and even logic if it must...in order to hold on to a sense of security...no matter how dishonestly that idea was concocted in. It is the weakness of the flesh.

The bible is calling us OUT from that frame of mind and into the truth. But few will be so honest as to question their own motives for believing what they do.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

With this thread I hope to bring light and clarity to an issue that few ever consider as a problem..that is..how by adding in our own understanding (without a further thought about it) we can invert the meaning of the bible from being truth into becoming a lie.

I am not speaking of a willful blindness that people engage in to justify themselves through a vain religious belief system. Surely, these will pipe in to justify an incorrect notion....for their own advantage. No, I'm not writing to these. I'm writing to they who could not realize how a simple deviation in the understanding of a biblical text could spoil even the innocence of a seeking heart. We must factor in, not just the inaccuracies of a bible translation...but also the influence of "the power of the air" that seeks to confound seekers of God away from their desired objective which is according to the truth.

So what I'm saying is that there is far more to the verses I intend to list than meets the human eye...or the human understanding.

When we read the bible it cannot be through the lens of self...a seeking for personal benefit. Actually we must read with the idea of glorifying God...not self.

With these things in mind I wish to proceed with a verse that would seem to back up a false way of seeing things...when so many other verses say just the opposite. Of course a lie gets way more traction than even a great weight of truth. Why? It is because our carnal minds tend to gravitate to that which pleases it. The carnal mind also has an uncanny ability to ignore truth and even logic if it must...in order to hold on to a sense of security...no matter how dishonestly that idea was concocted in. It is the weakness of the flesh.

The bible is calling us OUT from that frame of mind and into the truth. But few will be so honest as to question their own motives for believing what they do.

Interesting thread. Hopefully, any thread such as this would explicitly recognize that it is the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding of truth and guides us into all truth. Also, I believe it's important to recognize that aspects of the truth can defy human logic. This especially applies to dichotomies (seeming contradictions) in the Bible. Of course, truth never contradicts itself, so that's why I stressed "seeming" contradictions.

 

[Episkopos]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

"Justified by His blood"....What does this mean?

Or this....


Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know there are 2 verses here...and most will think that they understand the idea being presented.....a slam dunk, so to speak. But the verses only make sense to us when we add in our own understanding. We want to add in the word "shed"...as in "shed blood."

So we want to believe that we are justified by believing in the shed blood of Jesus. And without further thought...in this very religious way of thinking...we construct a way to justify ourselves by seeking to take advantage of this seeming offer from God to just receive that shed blood as being for ourselves to use as we want. To exploit the tragedy of Christ having to suffer for our sins. Such a conflict of interest...that they who put Jesus to death would rejoice in that death as that being what justifies them in righteousness!? Are we justified from sin by committing the greatest sin of all?

There is a carnal logic to this. But right here is a possibility of a deviation that is so great that is turns the cornerstone into a stumbling block. IOW...it's a trap.

Are we justified through death and violence? If death justified us...and specifically the death of Jesus, then those Roman soldiers who crucified Him are the priests of a new religion based on violence AGAINST righteousness. And this is precisely what has happened. A new level of violence against righteousness and truth. How? By the carnal mind taking hold of truth and turning it into a lie.

All one has to do is to add a comma between "through faith, in His blood, to make this not about what carnal men can put together for themselves...but what the power of God can do. This isn't about having faith in Someone's shed blood...by putting a religious feeling or twist to this with the imagination. No, everyone at that time watching the crucifixion would have put their beliefs into seeing that the blood that was shed was indeed that of Jesus. The irony is that they who destroy righteousness for the sake of Jesus' shed blood...believe that Jesus was indeed the personification of all righteousness. It's all about who owns that shed blood. Is it us or God? Can we claim the blood of another for ourselves?

Or....is blood about LIFE not death. Does the "shed" blood of Jesus justify us....or rather does the life in the blood (unshed) justify us?

So let's look at what else the bible has to say about justification in regards to Jesus, His work, His life and our faith.

Rom. 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So which is it? Was it the shed blood of Jesus that justifies us...or the new flow of blood in resurrection life that justifies us....as we tap into this new life?

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation is about life...not death (of course one must pass through death to see life). The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is life....eternal life. God is not a God of death. In Him...is life.

Rom. 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.


Not justification of death?

If life, the life of Jesus, justifies us...and not His death...or beliefs about His death...then what of the death of Jesus?

Well, the death of Jesus is the price paid for our sins....but this is not a human transaction. It is God's transaction.

We cannot be involved in that transaction. We did not offer up Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. God did. So He holds all the cards so to speak. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...not the church...and God retains the initiative to apply that sacrifice on whomever He wishes.

So God is the God of all flesh. That is the universal aspect of salvation (no one can justify himself...no...not even Christians).

But we can KNOW we have life when we walk in that new life which is at a whole other level of experience and love, joy and peace. To walk in His resurrection life. Surely we can experience the justification of God through the permission in the way of a gift ...to walk in His life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm reminded of a verse that says, the life is in the blood. Ill go look for it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Its lev 17:10-11

It's God saying He will turn His face from anyone who drinks blood because the life is in the blood.

I guess it was hard for them to drink from that cup Jesus passed around when He said, drink this, its my blood...surely they didn't understand...but they drank it anyway.

Il

 

[Episkopos]

The truth is that when WE take Jesus' shed blood for ourselves...we are only proving that we are guilty of sin. We killed Jesus...and we are still doing it...if we justify ourselves through death. We bring death...but God brings life.

Do we see that the religion we have created around Jesus and His sacrifice is a kind of "anti-Jesus" movement that celebrates the killing of Jesus, except for Easter of course, and the cursory nod that indeed Jesus didn't stay dead.

But had Jesus stayed dead...that would not have stopped the religion we have created...since we look to His death for justification ...not His life.

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

Are we not still in our sins...until we become justified by walking in His life?

Is our faith not in the death of Jesus...His shed blood? Do we not adhere to a dead religion...a religion of death? And all this by inverting the meaning of the truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am not speaking of a willful blindness that people engage in to justify themselves through a vain religious belief system.

boy, sure sounds like you are

Surely, these will pipe in to justify an incorrect notion....for their own advantage.

narf

 

[bbyrd009]

Its lev 17:10-11

It's God saying He will turn His face from anyone who drinks blood because the life is in the blood.

I guess it was hard for them to drink from that cup Jesus passed around when He said, drink this, its my blood...surely they didn't understand...but they drank it anyway.

Il

and not a drop of blood was drank that day either huh

 

[bbyrd009]

a simple deviation in the understanding of a biblical text

this phrase, right here; deviation from what, epi

We must factor in, not just the inaccuracies of a bible translation

ha well so you say anyway,
Genesis 1:1 Lexicon: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

but also the influence of "the power of the air" that seeks to confound seekers of God away from their desired objective which is according to the truth.

nice imo. But "you cant cheat an honest man" i guess

 

[Episkopos]

Its lev 17:10-11

It's God saying He will turn His face from anyone who drinks blood because the life is in the blood.

I guess it was hard for them to drink from that cup Jesus passed around when He said, drink this, its my blood...surely they didn't understand...but they drank it anyway.

Il

The cup of Jesus blood...is connected to Jesus...to His life...not His death. It is poured out for all....but it is poured out from life, not death.

Jesus compares that drink to drinking the fruit of the vine. He is the vine. If the vine is dead...there can be no fruit from it to drink from.

 

[Episkopos]

this phrase, right here; deviation from what, epi

The deviation is from the true meaning of the message from God...from intended life to death. From what is light in the Lord to becoming darkness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually we must read with the idea of glorifying God...not self.

What is God

 

[bbyrd009]

Interesting thread. Hopefully, any thread such as this would explicitly recognize that it is the Holy Spirit who gives us understanding of truth and guides us into all truth. Also, I believe it's important to recognize that aspects of the truth can defy human logic. This especially applies to dichotomies (seeming contradictions) in the Bible. Of course, truth never contradicts itself, so that's why I stressed "seeming" contradictions.

i guess the prince of the air is not the king of the air, after all

 

[bbyrd009]

"Justified by His blood"....What does this mean?

yes

I know there are 2 verses here...and most will think that they understand the idea being presented.....a slam dunk, so to speak. But the verses only make sense to us when we add in our own understanding. We want to add in the word "shed"...as in "shed blood."

So we want to believe that we are justified by believing in the shed blood of Jesus. And without further thought...in this very religious way of thinking...we construct a way to justify ourselves by seeking to take advantage of this seeming offer from God to just receive that shed blood as being for ourselves.

There is a carnal logic to this. But right here is a possibility of a deviation that is so great that is turns the cornerstone into a stumbling block. IOW...it's a trap.

bazinga

and how bout that word, "propitiating," what does that even mean,
pro•pi•ti•a•tion prō-pĭsh″ē-ā′shən
►

• n.
  The act of propitiating.
• n.
  Something that propitiates, especially a conciliatory offering to a god.
• n.
  The act of propitiating; the act of making propitious.

narf

 

[bbyrd009]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

"Justified by His blood"....What does this mean?

Or this....


Romans 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I know there are 2 verses here...and most will think that they understand the idea being presented.....a slam dunk, so to speak. But the verses only make sense to us when we add in our own understanding. We want to add in the word "shed"...as in "shed blood."

So we want to believe that we are justified by believing in the shed blood of Jesus. And without further thought...in this very religious way of thinking...we construct a way to justify ourselves by seeking to take advantage of this seeming offer from God to just receive that shed blood as being for ourselves to use as we want. To exploit the tragedy of Christ having to suffer for our sins. Such a conflict of interest...that they who put Jesus to death would rejoice in that death as that being what justifies them in righteousness!? Are we justified from sin by committing the greatest sin of all?

There is a carnal logic to this. But right here is a possibility of a deviation that is so great that is turns the cornerstone into a stumbling block. IOW...it's a trap.

Are we justified through death and violence? If death justified us...and specifically the death of Jesus, then those Roman soldiers who crucified Him are the priests of a new religion based on violence AGAINST righteousness. And this is precisely what has happened. A new level of violence against righteousness and truth. How? By the carnal mind taking hold of truth and turning it into a lie.

All one has to do is to add a comma between "through faith, in His blood, to make this not about what carnal men can put together for themselves...but what the power of God can do. This isn't about having faith in Someone's shed blood...by putting a religious feeling or twist to this with the imagination. No, everyone at that time watching the crucifixion would have put their beliefs into seeing that the blood that was shed was indeed that of Jesus. The irony is that they who destroy righteousness for the sake of Jesus' shed blood...believe that Jesus was indeed the personification of all righteousness. It's all about who owns that shed blood. Is it us or God? Can we claim the blood of another for ourselves?

Or....is blood about LIFE not death. Does the "shed" blood of Jesus justify us....or rather does the life in the blood (unshed) justify us?

So let's look at what else the bible has to say about justification in regards to Jesus, His work, His life and our faith.

Rom. 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

So which is it? Was it the shed blood of Jesus that justifies us...or the new flow of blood in resurrection life that justifies us....as we tap into this new life?

awesome, ty

We did not offer up Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. God did.

John 18:14 Lexicon: Now Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was expedient for one man to die on behalf of the people.
yes, i killed Him myself, epi


ok really gotta run now, have to lol arg, hope someone else will step in here, see ya tonight

good stuff imo

 

[Episkopos]

yes

bazinga

and how bout that word, "propitiating," what does that even mean,
pro•pi•ti•a•tion prō-pĭsh″ē-ā′shən
►

• n.
  The act of propitiating.
• n.
  Something that propitiates, especially a conciliatory offering to a god.
• n.
  The act of propitiating; the act of making propitious.

narf

The god that was being propitiated was not almighty God...but the god of this world. The devil demanded the death of Jesus. God USED that demand to buy back His creation back to Himself. Hiding in the humanity of Jesus was the divinity that cannot die. So death was overcome by His resurrection. Jesus did all of this in the weakness of man.(but in the wisdom of God)

So we ought also to take on His life in the weakness of these mortal bodies.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, i killed Him myself, epi

Cain kills Abel ok, dont get sideways here imo

The god that was being propitiated was not almighty God...but the god of this world

heck, i dont even know what Propitiated means yet bro

"like" though, that part, not disagreeing k

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is difficult for me to grasp. Bear with me. The shedding of blood is to...make atonement for sin and to cleanse. In the temple, it had to be done repeatedly because the people kept sinning because of the weakness of their flesh...and this made their conscience not clean.

So...it follows, to me anyway, that the blood of Jesus was to cleanse so that we could go before God. But He also always told healed people, go and sin no more...ah, its too much for me.

 

[bbyrd009]

The devil demanded the death of Jesus

oh, i thought you just said God did?