Take A Stand - Stand to gain, or stand to lose?

[St. SteVen]

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church? Good question.

This led to me thinking about the larger subject of taking a stand. What does that look like? Or what could it look like?

Over the years I have known many individuals that have taken issue with the church and headed for the door.

As I saw these situations unfold I asked the individuals to weigh what they would lose against what they would gain.
In most cases they felt that they were doing the "honest" thing. They could no longer play the game at church.

Parenthetically, this meant that they may have felt that I was being "dishonest" to stay in the church.
Fortunately, none of these dear friends accused me of such. And I wondered if the "honesty" thing was just an excuse. ???
What they would say to anyone who questions why they left. To keep themselves of some sort of "higher ground".

I'm still in the church, and I have my reasons. And I think God wants me to stay put for now.
I don't mean to "play the God card" to end the discussion. I want us to discuss this.

Discussion questions:
1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

]

 

[St. SteVen]

While being supportive of my friends that left the church, I was mindful of this scripture concerning myself.
If I left the church, would it be "out of selfish ambition or vain conceit"? I didn't HAVE to leave. So I stayed.

Philippians 2:3-4 NIV
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

]

 

[Spyder]

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church? Good question.

This led to me thinking about the larger subject of taking a stand. What does that look like? Or what could it look like.

Over the years I have known many individuals that have taken issue with the church and headed for the door.

As I saw these situations unfold I asked the individuals to weigh what they would lose against what they would gain.
In most cases they felt that they were doing the "honest" thing. They could no longer play the game at church.

Parenthetically, this meant that they may have felt that I was being "dishonest" to stay in the church.
Fortunately, none of these dear friends accused me of such. And I wondered if the "honesty" thing was just an excuse. ???
What they would say to anyone who questions why they left. To keep themselves of some sort of "higher ground".

I'm still in the church, and I have my reasons. And I think God wants me to stay put for now.
I don't mean to "play the God card" to end the discussion. I want us to discuss this.

Discussion questions:
1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

]

There are doctrine with which I have disagreed, but the sum of all the issues with most of those doctrines was nil. Not truly understanding the why's of certain ones did not negate their growth as Christians. Then I finally learned from God that there is one doctrine that caused me to fail God if I pretended to believe it. It violates several places in scripture where Yahweh said that He, alone, is God. Because of that, for me to remain with that church which preached, taught, and sang songs promoting belief in the trinity would be my sin. That, I could not do.
I has been an earth-shaking period in my walk with Christ. However, I can do no less than what Yahweh commands. That has been the only denominational doctrine that I cannot live with.

 

[Windmill Charge]

1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

Before taking a stand, before leaving one should raise what ever issues that concern you with the church leadership.
It is only when these talks reach an impass that one should consider leaving.

What ever the issue(s) things should be done decently, sometimes people.e can agree to differ, some issues are not of primary importance, while others are non negotiable.

If leaving do so formally writing to the leadership and to the church members explaining your reasons.


Gains and loses?
Depends whether one can find a church that supports, encourages and challenges one to live as a Christian.
It definitely takes time to build friendships in a new church.

 

[St. SteVen]

Before taking a stand, before leaving one should raise what ever issues that concern you with the church leadership.
It is only when these talks reach an impass that one should consider leaving.

What ever the issue(s) things should be done decently, sometimes people.e can agree to differ, some issues are not of primary importance, while others are non negotiable.

If leaving do so formally writing to the leadership and to the church members explaining your reasons.

I'm not sure that anything good could come of this route. Here's why.

- Things could be debated with church leadership. But don't expect to win that debate.
- If you lose the debate (and you will) are you willing to be "fixed"? (surrender to leadership)
- Hard to do things decently when you are taking a position against the church.
- The church is not going to change due to your issues with it.

Decide to stay, or decide to leave. Say proper goodbyes and leave in peace. Details may be unnecessary. (leads to argument)

]

 

[Windmill Charge]

I'm not sure that anything good could come of this route

The point is twofold.
1 to show that scripture does not support their position.
2 to show you do not agree with them.

If the dispute is about something ofrimary importance, then one would automatically leave if the leadership are not willing to reconsider their views.

If it is a secondary issue then if both parties are willing to agree to differ then other factors would influence one's session to leave.

We are not guaranteed success in witnessing to the truth, rather we are to witness to it.

 

[St. SteVen]

The point is twofold.
1 to show that scripture does not support their position.
2 to show you do not agree with them.

I agree in general, but...
There seems to be this perception that if two views are in opposition, that one of them is unbiblical.
That is rarely the case. Usually a church, or individual, has biblical support for their position.
And someone with an opposing view ALSO has biblical support for their position.

Somehow we get the idea that only one view can be the "right" one. Even if they are BOTH biblical.

Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.

--- PARODY TIME --- KJO reader: This is what the Word of God says. NIV reader: Let's compare the NIV translation. KJO reader: WHAT! ??? That's a terrible translation! NIV reader: Are you saying it isn't the "Word of God"? KJO reader: The NIV left verses out of the Bible! NIV reader: No, the...

www.christianityboard.com

]

 

[Spyder]

I agree in general, but...
There seems to be this perception that if two views are in opposition, that one of them is unbiblical.
That is rarely the case. Usually a church, or individual, has biblical support for their position.
And someone with an opposing view ALSO has biblical support for their position.

Somehow we get the idea that only one view can be the "right" one. Even if they are BOTH biblical.

Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.

--- PARODY TIME --- KJO reader: This is what the Word of God says. NIV reader: Let's compare the NIV translation. KJO reader: WHAT! ??? That's a terrible translation! NIV reader: Are you saying it isn't the "Word of God"? KJO reader: The NIV left verses out of the Bible! NIV reader: No, the...

www.christianityboard.com

]

I have never found a case where two opposing views are "both biblical." What I HAVE found is that one side or both side skip over passages that show that a different conclusion should be seen. Color that result with the translation of source manuscripts by those who pre-established doctrines who add punctuation or make word choices to support them and validity goes out the window. At that point, there will be no agreement in an argument because most people choose what to believe regardless of the proofs offered.

 

[Behold]

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church?

I think you are trying to explain that you are in a denomination, as you are using the word "church" incorrectly.

The CHURCH, is everyone who is this....>"the Temple of the Holy Spirit"... So, this would be the "body of Christ", that is "the CHURCH"

So, you are not talking about that, as if you were you would not be so foolish to state that you might "leave it", ....etc.

This means you are confusing your DENOMINATION< as the "Church"..SteVen[/USER]

How to know if you should leave your denomination?

Leave it if..

1.) They teach you can lose your salvation
2.) They teach that water baptism is required for salvation
3.) The Holy Bible is not respected, adored, and viewed to be the "Authority"
4.), Gays in the Pulpit, or as "officers of the church"
5.). The teach that you are still a sinner
6.) They teach there is "no hell", or that if you go there, you can get out
7.) They teach any sort of CALVINISM - TULIP


So, those are just a few reasons to leave your denomination, but there are many more, Reader.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have never found a case where two opposing views are "both biblical."

When I say that two opposing views are "both biblical", I mean that they both have biblical support.
I may disagree with one of those views, or both. But they are in conflict.

There are great divides in Christianity on subjects like baptism, eternal security, faith versus works, gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc.

Christians love to play "King of the Hill" on these subjects and be on top, because they believe there is only one right answer.
However, being on top means pushing everyone else off. Is that what we should be about?

For me, the questions have become more important than the answers. And even Jesus understood this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

]

 

[Behold]

For me, the questions have become more important than the answers

Your Theology is revealed.
Congrats..

 

[Spyder]

When I say that two opposing views are "both biblical", I mean that they both have biblical support.
I may disagree with one of those views, or both. But they are in conflict.

There are great divides in Christianity on subjects like baptism, eternal security, faith versus works, gifts of the Holy Spirit, etc.

Christians love to play "King of the Hill" on these subjects and be on top, because they believe there is only one right answer.
However, being on top means pushing everyone else off. Is that what we should be about?

For me, the questions have become more important than the answers. And even Jesus understood this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

]

I can say that, after so many years of having questions and being provided answers by "experts" in denominations, I discovered that man cannot be trusted to know much truth. Most men learn from other men (and women), rather than from God. I have my own diplomas, but they do not bequeath me knowledge of truth. They only show that I have learned how to search for it. However, for years I did not search scripture. I searched commentaries.

For me, a small gathering of fellow believers in Yahweh and His Son is the best place to explore scripture. Lacking that group of brothers and sisters leads to error, because the only views of scripture than we get is our own. Then we make the mistake of believing that our final result must have come from God.

Becoming mature in our Christian walk cannot happen when we are afraid of the views of others regarding scripture. I usually find that the people who are the most insecure are the same ones who will put people with other views on the "ignore" list as if they are germ spreaders. Like little children who are never permitted to play outside, jump in mud puddles, drink from the water hose, and eat dirt that is found in vegetables or fruit; they do not develop immunity from illnesses. In short, they are easy to deceive because they select their expert and simply accept all statements as true without verifying through God.

When we fear the answers to our questions, we are not studying scripture with all our available resources. It is not a magic incantation; it is a deliberate search.

 

[St. SteVen]

For me, a small gathering of fellow believers in Yahweh and His Son is the best place to explore scripture. Lacking that group of brothers and sisters leads to error, because the only views of scripture than we get is our own. Then we make the mistake of believing that our final result must have come from God.

What is your view of the Body of Christ?
Jesus said he would build his church. Is that happening on any scale?

What you describe may be a matter of tribalism. (isolation from the Body of Christ) ???

]

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic available.

What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?

This point causes me a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. (something most won't admit) The gospel and the New Testament narrative unravel when these things aren't literal. - The geologies are meaningless. (or in serious error) - Who wrote the Books of Moses? (and when) - If Adam wasn't...

www.christianityboard.com

]

 

[Windmill Charge]

Somehow we get the idea that only one view can be the "right" one. Even if they are BOTH biblical.

Are they both accurate explanations and application of scripture.
Example there are no biblical examples of infant baptism, but those 2ho believe in it will adapt promises made " to all in your family " and assume they had young children.
Equally the prosperity gospel miss uses verse to imply that Christians will or can be wealthy.
Something Paul's letters don't support.

If a church is being g lead astray, one can only protest and argue until it has become clear one is being ignored, then one has to formally leave.

 

[Spyder]

What is your view of the Body of Christ?
Jesus said he would build his church. Is that happening on any scale?

What you describe may be a matter of tribalism. (isolation from the Body of Christ) ???

]

Simply put, the body of Christ is the community of believers who gather together and live out His teachings. I see the numerous buildings that we call churches as tribalism. Each denomination has a "statement of faith" or something along those lines that announce their beliefs. According to them, their members are expected to have the same beliefs or they cannot be in that tribe.

As I have found, those who do not accept those beliefs as valid are considered "in error."

I have also found that the leaders of said churches are unable and unwilling to discuss those statements using all of scripture since they have been taught to use only those proof-texts that they were given. Anyone questioning those statements with other texts which cast a shadow on their beliefs receive anger and frustration. That is not "the body of Christ."

The true body of Christ does not push out the young followers who want to learn all the both Yahweh and Yeshua spoke and understand how to live according to them.

St. Steven, you yourself bring up questions that many do not want to discuss. They shun you for asking questions that have potential answers that rock their boats. Myself, I like your questions and they cause me to consider them without causing my stress at all. My gathering of fellow believers would appreciate someone with your views, as you can cause the group to evaluate what they believe and then wait on God for validation without accusing you of heresy.

Tribalism when a church claims to own the truth and its members must honor their declared truth and NOT to seek truth from God.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. Steven, you yourself bring up questions that many do not want to discuss. They shun you for asking questions that have potential answers that rock their boats. Myself, I like your questions and they cause me to consider them without causing my stress at all. My gathering of fellow believers would appreciate someone with your views, as you can cause the group to evaluate what they believe and then wait on God for validation without accusing you of heresy.

Thank you. I appreciate you as well.

I certainly have taken a beating for standing up to the status quo. Fortunately, several like yourself, have seen the value in these discussions.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

Intro and discussion questions from the OP.

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church? Good question.
This led to me thinking about the larger subject of taking a stand. What does that look like? Or what could it look like?

Discussion questions:
1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

]

 

[Spyder]

Intro and discussion questions from the OP.

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church? Good question.
This led to me thinking about the larger subject of taking a stand. What does that look like? Or what could it look like?

Discussion questions:
1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

]

1) When not taking a stand puts one is a position to sin against God.
2) Disassociation with the local church.
3) A solid conviction that cannot be swayed - and a stronger faith.
4) Friendships and a sense of loneliness. (It is also a time when we discover who truly were our friends.)

 

[St. SteVen]

I was asked a question recently about why I am still in the church? Good question.

This led to me thinking about the larger subject of taking a stand. What does that look like? Or what could it look like?

Over the years I have known many individuals that have taken issue with the church and headed for the door.

As I saw these situations unfold I asked the individuals to weigh what they would lose against what they would gain.
In most cases they felt that they were doing the "honest" thing. They could no longer play the game at church.

Parenthetically, this meant that they may have felt that I was being "dishonest" to stay in the church.
Fortunately, none of these dear friends accused me of such. And I wondered if the "honesty" thing was just an excuse. ???
What they would say to anyone who questions why they left. To keep themselves morally on some sort of "higher ground".

I'm still in the church, and I have my reasons. And I think God wants me to stay put for now.

Discussion questions:
1) When is it appropriate to take a stand?
2) What forms might that take?
3) What does one stand to gain?
4) What does one stand to lose?

[