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Teachers & The Curse In The End Times- Rapture Believers

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Pariah, Jun 18, 2009.

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  1. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    I see this as applicable to the judgment falling on the House of God first. You do not refine when you seperate the wheat from the chaff. This is the scourging the Father will give to every child He receives. Hebrews 12:1-29
    Ditto on the fables, brother.
    And are not those things being practised by wayward believers in Christ? This would be the vessel unto dishonour as the Lord will chasten ever child He receives that they may be partakers of His holiness.
    1 Peter 4:16-19 Note verse 18. Notice again the reference to His appearing in 1 Peter 5:1-4. How can those that be ready go through the refiner's fire? This leads to the elect then as the vessels unto honour: the chaste bride of Christ for being ready.
    His ordinance is John 14:6 John 5:22-23 But becuase they do not return for they do not see themselves as departing when they see the Holy Ghost as another "go to " Person of the Trinity.Those left behind will be restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake as Jesus is their first love.
    For all the holy rollers and applying faith for gain, they do so by going around the ordinance of John 14:6 by going after the "Spirit of God". Being left behind at the pre-tribulational rapture event is where no believer wants to be for being wayward, but verse 15 states that they will be delivered as it will lead to verse 16 being restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake that God will hearken unto them and record them.
    Including those that did not feed them, clothe them, nor visit them when they were sick or in prison.
    You left out some important verses in Revelation 20 for context of the kind of judging being gievn.Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.That is after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Satan is casted into the pit and released after 1000 years and he succeed somehow by luring many to rebel with him against the Lord. Of course, the devil is defeated.Is it not strange that those that went through the great tribulation would have their deeds recorded; those that have been rebellious? Is it not even stranger that Revelation 20 is when everybody is judged save for the elect?
    What better way to mark that return when they are left behind to go through the great tribulation. It has to be a singular event for the hour of trial to start for all on the earth.
    1 Corinthians 3:10-23
    I disagree. The earth will not go in the lake of fire. This is a different fire. The Refiner's fire as well as the wrath of God. You had mentioned the refiner's fire earlier, but in adding to this for the bowl judgments on the earth is the wrath of God which is the fire withheld for judgment on ungodly men. First one was the Flood. The next one is the fire.
    No comment.
    John 5:39-40
    No comment yet.
    Comment: The prophet will be sent to warn the wayward to repent. If they do not, judgment will fall on the earth as the hour of trial will try all that live on the earth.
    I do not see this as a reference for the rapture theory at all. I haven't used it. If the curse is going to be on the earth, I fail to see your point about not flying away.
    I disagree. Those falling victim to the deception of another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues are in the land of Shinar. That is what they get for climbing up another way.. for not seeking the gift from Jesus Christ. They sought another spirit to receive and they call that spirit the Holy Spirit and that is why they do not understand about returning to Jesus for they fail to see that they had departed from Him.Seems like your scriptural warfare are for the wayward: not for speaking against the rapture. Just because you do not understand the promise of Jesus coming to receive us unto Himself so that where He is NOW, there shall we be, does not neglect the coming judgment on the House of God for how can it come unless the rapture does?
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Its called lack of faith and listentening to men Pariah to answer your last statement in your post. You seem to lack an ability to understand the differance of the written Word from men words.. you only know the teaching of men and what they tell you is written ... so are as blinded as those you accuse ... Wisdom comes from God not menWhy dont you try reading 2 Thess it will tell you all about when it is that Christ comes and corrects the misunderstanding that the 3 week old church of Thess in 1 Thess. AFTER the antichrist (the son of pertidition, man of sin) there is no secret coming before this except in the minds of men. But Im sure Antichrist will promise some sort of Rapture in his flood of lies so the question is will you be getting in line? ... Because Gods Word never discuss's any Rapture or catching away before the Antichrist and that is the tribulation beginning and we all be here ...but keep telling yourself fabels of men ...
     
  3. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    Heres why the rapture theory is wrong:Ezekiel 13:20 "Therefore, thus says the lord god, behold i am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and i will tear them from your arms; and i will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds"Colossinas 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to christ"I dont beleive in the rapture and i rufuse to.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Good for you gumby you are one of the few that understand this verse in Eze. Pillows(magic Bands) sometimes called kerchiefs were the the things worn on the wrists of the sorcerers those practicing magic black arts as they chanted incantations ...we might think of them today as the tools of the magician when he waves a cloth over the hat says a few words abracadabra and pulls out a rabbit ... Pillows /magic bands/ quick of hand all things used to deceive cover up what really happening (truth) ... This is rapture theory slight of hand/ Words to deceive ... Gods does not like those who practice to deceive to teach his children/souls they are going to fly away like birds ... his truth,is that this is a false doctrine.. A doctrine of lying men and their magic incantations slight of hand ...Gods truth will set you free ..of these lies
     
  5. gumby

    gumby New Member

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    Well lets just say this much about my childhood, i had a very deceptive and power hungry pastor that tried to cram the rapture theory down my throat at an early age, the ironic thing though is that pastor later quite because the people were protesting that he was spreading all sorts of rumors and lies. Even then at a very young age though i still knew that something my sunday school teacher was teaching me and telling me wasnt right because those people were teaching the rapture. In my mind its a false lie and there is no mention of the word rapture in any version of the bible. I praise god that i have wise people like you who dont buy into traditions of men [​IMG]
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Gods wisdom was obviously with you even as a child gumby [​IMG] I once read a very interesting article about this verse in Eze.(13:20) that the interpreters had a very difficult time with the fly part of this verse and really struggled to see if there was a another word that could have been meant here... it literally means to fly (up /away)physically as a bird might do they could find no other word no other explanations no Hebrew idioms(figures of speech)meaning anything different. They couldn't see exactly how it related to the rest of the verse ..they just went with what was said exactly but had no logical explanations ... Fast forward a few hundred years and we have the false Rapture doctrine ... not heard of before 1830 really only taking hold in the main stream in the last 40/50 or so years ... What another great testament to Gods Words that many miss not seeing and understanding this verse for its truth and wisdomGod always knew this false doctrine would come about in the last days and warned us against it thousands of years before it happened....yet it made no sense to men until this last generation when this doctrine came to pass..... I love these little gems in Gods Word its Just sad that most would prefer men's lies to Gods gems of truth he gives us many ....
     
  7. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Guess you all have to wait and see then. Be far it from me to convince you all about the "rapture" when I know it is on God to cause the increase. I am not offended that you do not see His promise of John 14:1-3.However, I do wonder why everyone has missed my point by His grace that SwampFox's thread was more of reproving the wayward of the Pentecostal and Charismatics in seeking another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues than it having anything to do with the rapture. The idea of a refiner's fire goes to show judgment falling on the House of God whereas the rapture would be the urgency for those wayward to get their act togther before the appearing of the Bridegroom, but if there is no rapture, then there is no cause for alarm while everyone just wait for the son of perdition to reveal himself in the holy of holies. For not knowing when that time is... seems there are pretty defining moments in the great tribulation.There is once the order id given out to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, that is the beginning of the seven year great tribulation. And halfway through that is when the son of perdition reveals himself. So no. This catching away thing is supposed to be to the marriage supper of the Lamb as going in the ark would be as the wrath of God falls on all the earth to try those on the earth when the devil knows he has a short time left. This is the seperation of the vessels of honour from the vessels of dishonour. The saints and all of their works will go into the earth... dust. They will not love their lives even unto death. That is referring to specific saints as one in need of the refiner's fire as their works go into the earth with them. Jesus shall restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake as He will finish His work even in them.So there is a need for judgment to fall on the House of God as the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews after the rapture, hence the 144,000 witnesses.If you are all abiding in Him, believing in the rapture is not a prerequisition to be raptured. Keeping the faith in Jesus Christ is. The call is to be ready and watching and being on guard.This forum has meat for the wayward that can help present every believer has a chaste bride to Christ, but alas, not everything shared on this forum is meat for discerning what is of faith and what is not. I say this: SwampFox's thread is more to that end than it is about debunking the rapture, but I leave that on God to cause the increase. May He help me to do this. Amen.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    well Im not offended that you believe rapture but Im am concerned for your soul that you follow man not God God never promised you a Rapture in his Word ...Men promise you a Rapture ... If you would take a moment to educate yourself on its inception you would see this ... I like many once believed this false doctrine also till I went about really wanting to see what God said of it instead of men to my surprise God doesn't say it ... Its a theory created by men ..by definition a theory can not be proved .. Only problem is God doesn't deal in theories of men ...He flat tells you tn Eze. he doesn't like this theory of men because it gives a false thing to depend on instead of trusting that he can keep you from tribulation his way ..Men had to devise a lie that they could escape having to be refined ..very sad because there is no escape except to know what will happen ..So you are not caught up in the delusion that will come upon the entire earth...The rapture people say dont worry if you dont understand the End times you will be gone anyway ..When did God ever say a third of his word wasnt important ??? No God says read my Words I have foretold you all things ..He tells us what will happen so we are prepared ..have our spiritual armor on ...The idea he wrote 1/3 of the bible to believers that were just going to be gone anyway is lunacy defies common sense ... What does God say about who is in danger Rev.9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Not those who are sealed with Gods truth He gives a command to only hurt those not sealed .. Yet men lie and say we must fly away so God can protect us ..He has already assured you he wont allow the sealed to be hurt ... What little faith men have in their father answer mr this if there were no believers here why would he have to give this command to Satan and his locust army ????????????I would ask you if you truly love your father take 5 min. and read where this lie originated http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm
     
  9. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Funny that I am judged not on message, when the message is established at the start of both Malachi 3 and the study. If I am not on your message, than that is certainly no skin off my nose.One thing you're completely missing in the refiner's fire is that the bad is in with the good initially. This, of course, speaks for both the spiritual and the physical:[I do assume that folks READ the Bible when I post sections of chapters...think of it as study HW in the very least. I would submit that not understanding this bit of information sheds light on how much the actual lesson was understood. Always check things out, period.]
    (In case your rapture believers out there missed it, I highlighted some key phrases.) Gather the tares, then gather the rest.
    So then, and only once the tares are cleared, will the righteous shine forth. This conditionally depends upon what was said above; when both the tares and the wheat are gathered at the harvest.
    What, then, is the refiner's fire. As I have undoubtedly shone above, there is no special taking away of the wheat beforehand. Why not, appropriately, listen to the Words of the man that came in the spirit of Elijah?
    He will purge. The type is already here in the forgiveness of our sins. The bad is done away with, and the good continues on to life and to bless.
     
  10. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    It did not say sealed with Gods truth. Since we prophesy in part and know in part, knowing everything cannot be the sealing of the saint, but coming to and beliving in Jesus is the only requirment given to be sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ. It is that seal of God that is in their forehead. That is the only seal promised by God given.
    Those that love the Father will love Jesus to know that He is the Truth and that He has promised this and meant what He had said that where He was going and now is, He will come and bring us there. John 14:1-3 Just as the Holy Spirit was given by promise, and the Gentiles did not know about the promise of the Holy Spirit when they believed on Jesus when they heard the Gospel in Acts 10, but they received Him anyway: just as those that did not know of the promise of being taken to the Bridechamber will be taken anyway when found abiding in Him in keeping the faith.By His grace, my belief in the rapture is the motivation to warn every believer to be ready and found abiding in Him that they may be presented as a chaste bride to Christ. For wayward believers to not take heed, and think He is delaying in His coming, they will beat the servants with religious guantlets to doubt their salvation by faith in Jesus Christ of what He has done in having bought us as His and sealed as His so that they may labour in unbelief and thus ruling over them, making merchandise of them as well as becoming benefactors like those that sit in Moses' seat.The rapture is not the push as much as being ready in keeping the faith and abiding in Him is for no one will know when He will appeareth. The rapture serves as a warning that wayward believers should not wait for the signs of the great tribulation to be "sincere" about their walk with Christ; they should be going to Jesus and leaning on Him now in living this christian life by faith in the Son of God, thereby having a relationship with the Son of God whereas He will not say unto them, "I know ye not whence ye are..." as all relationships are based on trust and that is why the just shall live by faith... why the little children can freely come to Him and why the poor in spirit are blessed as it is God's turn now to do it what man failed to accomplish by the law. This is His glory and why Jesus' name is above every other name. The rapture will show the chosen from those not ready but the foolish virgins will be shining as witnesses after the rapture, albeit too late for the Marriage Supper asnthe prodigal son that gave up his first inheritance for wild living is yet still called son, but there will be a loss as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but God will help them get past that loss of all those that are His that comes out of the great tribulation by wiping the tears from their eyes.Still, why be like Esau? Let us heed the high calling of Christ and put off the works of darkness by His grace while there is still time.
     
  11. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    No. You are not judged. The message is.
    Do keep in mind that everyone prophesy in part and know in part. Just because you read something and applied it in one way, does not mean that is the intent of the meaning of God's words. There is truth in God's words, but applying it from the prophetic standpoint to today is where wisdom has to come from the Lord.
    Everyone should check everything out by leaning on the Lord for discernment. Any believer can make a mistake, and leaders are targetted more often by the forces of darkness than they realize. Little do these wayward leaders notice when they are ceasing to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified only as they are distracted by other teachings taking the spotlight which edifies us not in the knowledge of Jesus Christ nor help us to discern what is of faith and what is not. Redeeming the time should be by His grace, on the leader's mind.
    1 Corinthians 3:10-23 and Hebrews 12:1-29 is applicable to the burning of the tares. The vessels unto honour would shine forth as presented faultless to His glory at His appearing for the Marriage Supper of the Bridegroom and the Bride. Those vessels unto dishonour will have their works follow them into the earth as they are handed over to Satan to the destruction of the flesh in the hour that will try all on the earth as the devil will know He has a short time left once those doors are shut to the Bridechamber. Thus the Spirit and the Bride says to those that have ears.. Come... come to Jesus... narrow the way back to the straight gate to avoid false spirits and false prophets.
    If they are in the barn and then the tares are burned up, how is that not being taken away?
    Don't you find it odd when one group needed to be given robes as if they were naked of their faith in Christ while another needed their robes washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb? The first group would be akin to the foolish virgins as labouring in unbelief while the second group is akin the prodigal sons for the sins of wild living needed to be washed away. Both groups that came out of the great tribulation has to have their tears wiped away from God sunce losing out of their first inheritance will cause many to be weeping and gnashing of teeth as Esau wept.
     
  12. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Right, but we're not talking people, we're talking the Word of God. So this point needs to be discarded, as it's not relevant even to what we are talking about here.Not much else to say to your comments, it's really like a broken record at this point.
    Because all of this takes place at the SAME TIME! (No clue how else to say it any simpler - simultaneously, concurrently, synchronously, etc.) The rapture clearly maintains that the believers are whisked away, then some of those that are left are then saved, all the while the antichrist runs amok. Finally, the believers are brought back and judgment given.
     
  13. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    That is your view of the rapture and maybe that is what some of those that believe in the rapture are saying, but that is not what I am saying at all. Jesus prophesied the falling away of the faith to such a point that before His appearing, only a few will find the faith. That means the majority of believers at that time are wayward and not abiding in Him as in not all of the believers will be taken. That warning about false prophets was given to the believers... not to the world.
     
  14. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I'm sorry, but you make no sense, absolutely no sense. I don't know if you try to create red herrings, or just choose to ignore what is written, or simply contradict your own arguments.The entire lesson is about those that don't pay attention to the Word. These are the ones that place themselves in positions of authority claiming to teach about this or that like they know something beyond what is said in the Word.If you want to discuss the Word, I shall be glad to oblige. Otherwise, I am not interested in carrying on a specious discussion that revolves around completely ambiguous and amorphous positions.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    THERE IS NO RAPTURE WRITTEN no secret coming There are few believers left you are correct in that. Why? Because they believe a lie a delusion and are following Antichrist ... NOT because they are raptured/flying away ...It is because of this very Rapture lie of Satan's on men that they will be following the wrong christ They are Not taught he comes first as 2 thess. says No No! they stop teaching believers at the mistake in 1 thess. that Paul corredted and rhen tell people you do Not need to understand the rest of the End Times you will not be here Its this very Rapture doctrine that cause few to make it to the end It came from a teen age girl that went insane not from GodSatan does love his die hard Rapture believers they are under a delusion of his lies already and he hasnt even gotten started yet.... Blessed is he that overcomes until the End for they shall reign and rule with Christ overcome what? Satan his the false prophet all his lies and the End Time delusion those that know the truth that Antichrist will come first claiming to be christ. All men must choose a side if you dont know who is coming or when you will follow the wrong christ.. How do you avoid this? Read his Word ...do not trust your salvation to the dream of a crazy teen age girl and the lies of men...13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Endure til the End not fly away
     
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