temporary dominion in this age

[Randy Kluth]

1 Thes 5.9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told by some we can escape from God's Judgment. And that's partly true. We can escape the judgment of eternal wrath, but we cannot escape times on earth when that judgment is being poured out on our neighbors. We are only told we can escape God's Eternal Wrath--not difficult times, when our Christian "dominions" seem to be taken away.

So what does it really mean to be delivered from God's Wrath? Does it mean we will be able to escape tribulations and judgments in the present life? No. Does it mean we will be able to establish eternal dominions on earth right now for the righteous in the present age? No.

John 16.33 I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

Matt 24.12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

The Prophets of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities went through the increasing judgments of God against Israel, as Israel descended into greater and greater apostasy. Well before the nation actually was defeated and carried off, the judgments of God continued, and the righteous had to suffer in the midst of this judgment.

What this means is that in ancient times, Israel experienced regular and increasing judgments, well before final judgment took place against that nation. And we can expect that in the present age, Christian nations will experience the same.

Especially as these Christian nations become *former* Christian nations, or "post-Christian" nations, there will certainly be a crescendo of judgments from God upon this world. We are, I believe, already experiencing those!

So this will be the experience of the Church in this age, because the age is evil and will constantly be under judgment. We are to testify to the end. Especially as we testify to God's righteousness, and the world opposes it and rebels against it, God's judgments will fall. And in order to testify to the truth, we will be here until final judgment is poured out at Armageddon.

Some in the "Dominion Theology" camp believe we can somehow eventually exercise complete mastery over evil, or even "claim" it now. They believe we can somehow avoid the defeat that the book of Revelation says will be inflicted on the Church. I believe this to be false.

Even though we are able to prevail in the sense of successfully testifying to the Gospel, the way we succeed is not by completely defeating the enemy in the present age, but rather, by maintaining our faith in the midst of adversity. We certainly have been given limited power and dominion at times.

I do agree with the Dominion Theologians at least in this respect--we have been given temporary dominions with the specific purpose of surviving as a testimony in this fallen world, giving it the hope of Christian salvation.

Here we see that in the present age, limited authority has been given to the Evil One to prevail over the Church.

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation... This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
14. 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

There is a difference between our dominion being overrun, and our faith being destroyed. In the present age, God allows the Evil One to overcome our dominion on earth. But we are given to be victorious in our faith, not by entering into immediate rule, but rather, by succeeding in providing a testimony to our faith.

Rev 12.11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 19.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.

Final Judgment takes place at the end of the age, on the last day, when Armageddon takes place, which could very well be a world war with nuclear bombs. It could be a sudden, overwhelming judgment that takes place in a very short time, changing the entire structure of world government.

In the meantime, God's judgments are always active, even if tempered by His patience. Every time evil is active in the world, God's judgment follows. It increases as rebellion increases. And God tolerates it for awhile to allow men to make their choices and in order to gather the wicked together for judgment.

The ungodly become exhilarated in their apparent enablement by God, as they temporarily win victory over the dominions of the Church. But they don't realize that they are experiencing a false optimism, giving them just enough confidence to build up a city that will be destroyed. They are gathered into a single government so that they can all be destroyed at once.

Judges 16.
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.” ...
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, “Bring out Samson to entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them...
30 Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

But the Church is neither delivered from these increasing judgments nor from the time of final judgment, at Armageddon. No, the Church is delivered from God's *Eternal Wrath,* but not from the time of that Wrath.

The judgments in this world come to either correct or to damn. The judgment of God falls upon both the saint and the sinner, either to correct or to destroy. The hardened, rebellious, or those refusing to repent, however, will be eternally judged, after a time that tests God's patience, and final judgment for them will mean eternal damnation.

But we are not told we will be delivered, as saints, from the *time* of judgment--only from the eternal judgment that is associated with those being damned. Salvation is not from the troubles of the present world, and our dominion in this age is only temporary and fleeting.

Our salvation, rather, is for eternal life and eternal immortality, when Christ comes to deliver us physically from these flawed, sinful bodies. Then our dominion on earth will be everlasting. We should not confuse this future dominion with our current temporary dominions in this present age. Our job is to be a testimony to Christ while we live in this temporary world.

 

[David H.]

But the Church is neither delivered from these increasing judgments nor from the time of final judgment, at Armageddon. No, the Church is delivered from God's *Eternal Wrath,* but not from the time of that Wrath.

Good Post, One question for you, Throughout the Bible whenever the wrath of God is revealed to the world, the "righteous" are not allowed to witness it. Noah was sealed in an ark, The Israelites behind the blood in their Homes, Lot and family were told not to look back. Would this not therefore promote a deliverance from the time of wrath for the saints who are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb? Whether or not this is a rapture or some other form of divine protection?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Good Post, One question for you, Throughout the Bible whenever the wrath of God is revealed to the world, the "righteous" are not allowed to witness it. Noah was sealed in an ark, The Israelites behind the blood in their Homes, Lot and family were told not to look back. Would this not therefore promote a deliverance from the time of wrath for the saints who are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb? Whether or not this is a rapture or some other form of divine protection?

I love my Pretrib brothers and sisters, but respectfully, I've been a studied Postribber for perhaps 45 to 50 years! No, Noah knew full well beyond the walls of the ark what judgment was going on. Lot knew full well what went on behind him when he left Sodom. And the Hebrews knew full well about the death of the 1st born in Egypt--otherwise, they would never have been able to mention it in the Bible.

Perhaps there is a spiritual truth in what you say. I could think of a few reasons that God's People were somewhat protected from the gravity of the judgment of their neighbors. But rather than speculate on it right now, I have to say that I'm a firm Postribber, and do not think there is any biblical basis for a Pretrib Rapture! Sorry!

Throughout history saints have died under conditions that were caused more by ungodly populations than by their own personal failures. Good men and women, whether Christian or not, were innocent victims of epidemics brought on by God's displeasure with the general public, rather than with every single individual. Lot suffered defeat by 4 kings in a confederation only because he was associated with 5 kings, including the wicked king of Sodom. Fortunately, Abraham saved Lot.

We shouldn't judge people when they die, whether by natural disaster or war. Whether they die of sickness of die young, we shouldn't judge unless God clearly shows us a direct cause and effect between God's judgment and the act of judgment. Thanks for asking.

 

[David H.]

Perhaps there is a spiritual truth in what you say. I could think of a few reasons that God's People were somewhat protected from the gravity of the judgment of their neighbors. But rather than speculate on it right now, I have to say that I'm a firm Postribber, and do not think there is any biblical basis for a Pretrib Rapture! Sorry!

For the record, I am not a pretrib rapture proponent either, I Believe in a pre-wrath rapture, which occurs at the same time as the two witnesses are taken up, the dead in Christ rising first and we who are alive and remain caught up with them in the "clouds and in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

My timelines are different than most In that i have overlap of visions not a linear timeline from revelation which I Have found helpful which i will share when I have some time. Suffice it to say the sixth trumpet is the middle of the final week, and after the great tribulation. My view is that the Olivet discourse is linear and is our guide to filling in Revelation details.

 

[Randy Kluth]

For the record, I am not a pretrib rapture proponent either, I Believe in a pre-wrath rapture, which occurs at the same time as the two witnesses are taken up, the dead in Christ rising first and we who are alive and remain caught up with them in the "clouds and in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

My timelines are different than most In that i have overlap of visions not a linear timeline from revelation which I Have found helpful which i will share when I have some time. Suffice it to say the sixth trumpet is the middle of the final week, and after the great tribulation. My view is that the Olivet discourse is linear and is our guide to filling in Revelation details.

Not to worry. Some of my best friends are Pre-Wrath. And that position is very close to my own--I only have respect for it. We can indulge ourselves in discussing the differences later, if you wish. I would have to be here a whole day discussing the Olivet Discourse, which for me is somewhat like Preterist views in the historical application, but not entirely so. Generally, I hold to the view of the Church Fathers in ancient history.

I also hold to a non-linear view of the Revelation, believing it to be numerous visions, though only a few in particular. And I do *not* hold to a Preterist view of the book of Revelation!

And yet the account itself is linear--a narrative, culminating in a climactic account of Christ's Return and the Millennium. Overall, I believe the book is an encouragement to Christians to endure in difficult times, when antichrists have their day. Their rule, however, isn't lasting, and our testimony holds great weight in how it all ends!

 

[Timtofly]

1 Thes 5.9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told by some we can escape from God's Judgment. And that's partly true. We can escape the judgment of eternal wrath, but we cannot escape times on earth when that judgment is being poured out on our neighbors. We are only told we can escape God's Eternal Wrath--not difficult times, when our Christian "dominions" seem to be taken away.

So what does it really mean to be delivered from God's Wrath? Does it mean we will be able to escape tribulations and judgments in the present life? No. Does it mean we will be able to establish eternal dominions on earth right now for the righteous in the present age? No.

John 16.33 I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

Matt 24.12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

The Prophets of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities went through the increasing judgments of God against Israel, as Israel descended into greater and greater apostasy. Well before the nation actually was defeated and carried off, the judgments of God continued, and the righteous had to suffer in the midst of this judgment.

What this means is that in ancient times, Israel experienced regular and increasing judgments, well before final judgment took place against that nation. And we can expect that in the present age, Christian nations will experience the same.

Especially as these Christian nations become *former* Christian nations, or "post-Christian" nations, there will certainly be a crescendo of judgments from God upon this world. We are, I believe, already experiencing those!

So this will be the experience of the Church in this age, because the age is evil and will constantly be under judgment. We are to testify to the end. Especially as we testify to God's righteousness, and the world opposes it and rebels against it, God's judgments will fall. And in order to testify to the truth, we will be here until final judgment is poured out at Armageddon.

Some in the "Dominion Theology" camp believe we can somehow eventually exercise complete mastery over evil, or even "claim" it now. They believe we can somehow avoid the defeat that the book of Revelation says will be inflicted on the Church. I believe this to be false.

Even though we are able to prevail in the sense of successfully testifying to the Gospel, the way we succeed is not by completely defeating the enemy in the present age, but rather, by maintaining our faith in the midst of adversity. We certainly have been given limited power and dominion at times.

I do agree with the Dominion Theologians at least in this respect--we have been given temporary dominions with the specific purpose of surviving as a testimony in this fallen world, giving it the hope of Christian salvation.

Here we see that in the present age, limited authority has been given to the Evil One to prevail over the Church.

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation... This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
14. 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

There is a difference between our dominion being overrun, and our faith being destroyed. In the present age, God allows the Evil One to overcome our dominion on earth. But we are given to be victorious in our faith, not by entering into immediate rule, but rather, by succeeding in providing a testimony to our faith.

Rev 12.11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 19.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.

Final Judgment takes place at the end of the age, on the last day, when Armageddon takes place, which could very well be a world war with nuclear bombs. It could be a sudden, overwhelming judgment that takes place in a very short time, changing the entire structure of world government.

In the meantime, God's judgments are always active, even if tempered by His patience. Every time evil is active in the world, God's judgment follows. It increases as rebellion increases. And God tolerates it for awhile to allow men to make their choices and in order to gather the wicked together for judgment.

The ungodly become exhilarated in their apparent enablement by God, as they temporarily win victory over the dominions of the Church. But they don't realize that they are experiencing a false optimism, giving them just enough confidence to build up a city that will be destroyed. They are gathered into a single government so that they can all be destroyed at once.

Judges 16.
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.” ...
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, “Bring out Samson to entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them...
30 Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

But the Church is neither delivered from these increasing judgments nor from the time of final judgment, at Armageddon. No, the Church is delivered from God's *Eternal Wrath,* but not from the time of that Wrath.

The judgments in this world come to either correct or to damn. The judgment of God falls upon both the saint and the sinner, either to correct or to destroy. The hardened, rebellious, or those refusing to repent, however, will be eternally judged, after a time that tests God's patience, and final judgment for them will mean eternal damnation.

But we are not told we will be delivered, as saints, from the *time* of judgment--only from the eternal judgment that is associated with those being damned. Salvation is not from the troubles of the present world, and our dominion in this age is only temporary and fleeting.

Our salvation, rather, is for eternal life and eternal immortality, when Christ comes to deliver us physically from these flawed, sinful bodies. Then our dominion on earth will be everlasting. We should not confuse this future dominion with our current temporary dominions in this present age. Our job is to be a testimony to Christ while we live in this temporary world.

Even the two witnesses leave before the battle of Armageddon. Why would you want to be here after they leave?

 

[marks]

1 Thes 5.9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told by some we can escape from God's Judgment. And that's partly true. We can escape the judgment of eternal wrath, but we cannot escape times on earth when that judgment is being poured out on our neighbors. We are only told we can escape God's Eternal Wrath--not difficult times, when our Christian "dominions" seem to be taken away.

So what does it really mean to be delivered from God's Wrath? Does it mean we will be able to escape tribulations and judgments in the present life? No. Does it mean we will be able to establish eternal dominions on earth right now for the righteous in the present age? No.

John 16.33 I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.

Matt 24.12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

The Prophets of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities went through the increasing judgments of God against Israel, as Israel descended into greater and greater apostasy. Well before the nation actually was defeated and carried off, the judgments of God continued, and the righteous had to suffer in the midst of this judgment.

What this means is that in ancient times, Israel experienced regular and increasing judgments, well before final judgment took place against that nation. And we can expect that in the present age, Christian nations will experience the same.

Especially as these Christian nations become *former* Christian nations, or "post-Christian" nations, there will certainly be a crescendo of judgments from God upon this world. We are, I believe, already experiencing those!

So this will be the experience of the Church in this age, because the age is evil and will constantly be under judgment. We are to testify to the end. Especially as we testify to God's righteousness, and the world opposes it and rebels against it, God's judgments will fall. And in order to testify to the truth, we will be here until final judgment is poured out at Armageddon.

Some in the "Dominion Theology" camp believe we can somehow eventually exercise complete mastery over evil, or even "claim" it now. They believe we can somehow avoid the defeat that the book of Revelation says will be inflicted on the Church. I believe this to be false.

Even though we are able to prevail in the sense of successfully testifying to the Gospel, the way we succeed is not by completely defeating the enemy in the present age, but rather, by maintaining our faith in the midst of adversity. We certainly have been given limited power and dominion at times.

I do agree with the Dominion Theologians at least in this respect--we have been given temporary dominions with the specific purpose of surviving as a testimony in this fallen world, giving it the hope of Christian salvation.

Here we see that in the present age, limited authority has been given to the Evil One to prevail over the Church.

Rev 13.7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation... This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
14. 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

There is a difference between our dominion being overrun, and our faith being destroyed. In the present age, God allows the Evil One to overcome our dominion on earth. But we are given to be victorious in our faith, not by entering into immediate rule, but rather, by succeeding in providing a testimony to our faith.

Rev 12.11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 19.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.

Final Judgment takes place at the end of the age, on the last day, when Armageddon takes place, which could very well be a world war with nuclear bombs. It could be a sudden, overwhelming judgment that takes place in a very short time, changing the entire structure of world government.

In the meantime, God's judgments are always active, even if tempered by His patience. Every time evil is active in the world, God's judgment follows. It increases as rebellion increases. And God tolerates it for awhile to allow men to make their choices and in order to gather the wicked together for judgment.

The ungodly become exhilarated in their apparent enablement by God, as they temporarily win victory over the dominions of the Church. But they don't realize that they are experiencing a false optimism, giving them just enough confidence to build up a city that will be destroyed. They are gathered into a single government so that they can all be destroyed at once.

Judges 16.
23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.” ...
25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, “Bring out Samson to entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them...
30 Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

But the Church is neither delivered from these increasing judgments nor from the time of final judgment, at Armageddon. No, the Church is delivered from God's *Eternal Wrath,* but not from the time of that Wrath.

The judgments in this world come to either correct or to damn. The judgment of God falls upon both the saint and the sinner, either to correct or to destroy. The hardened, rebellious, or those refusing to repent, however, will be eternally judged, after a time that tests God's patience, and final judgment for them will mean eternal damnation.

But we are not told we will be delivered, as saints, from the *time* of judgment--only from the eternal judgment that is associated with those being damned. Salvation is not from the troubles of the present world, and our dominion in this age is only temporary and fleeting.

Our salvation, rather, is for eternal life and eternal immortality, when Christ comes to deliver us physically from these flawed, sinful bodies. Then our dominion on earth will be everlasting. We should not confuse this future dominion with our current temporary dominions in this present age. Our job is to be a testimony to Christ while we live in this temporary world.

I agree, what may be God's wrath to punish the evildoer will be the afflictions which bring glory to the believer.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I love my Pretrib brothers and sisters, but respectfully, I've been a studied Postribber for perhaps 45 to 50 years! No, Noah knew full well beyond the walls of the ark what judgment was going on. Lot knew full well what went on behind him when he left Sodom. And the Hebrews knew full well about the death of the 1st born in Egypt--otherwise, they would never have been able to mention it in the Bible.

Perhaps there is a spiritual truth in what you say. I could think of a few reasons that God's People were somewhat protected from the gravity of the judgment of their neighbors. But rather than speculate on it right now, I have to say that I'm a firm Postribber, and do not think there is any biblical basis for a Pretrib Rapture! Sorry!

Throughout history saints have died under conditions that were caused more by ungodly populations than by their own personal failures. Good men and women, whether Christian or not, were innocent victims of epidemics brought on by God's displeasure with the general public, rather than with every single individual. Lot suffered defeat by 4 kings in a confederation only because he was associated with 5 kings, including the wicked king of Sodom. Fortunately, Abraham saved Lot.

We shouldn't judge people when they die, whether by natural disaster or war. Whether they die of sickness of die young, we shouldn't judge unless God clearly shows us a direct cause and effect between God's judgment and the act of judgment. Thanks for asking.

For me, there is the matter of the locust things in Revelation. I don't see that God will inflict those on His children, however, if they are on the earth at the time, they will be so afflicted. Of course, I've got a lot of other reasons that I'm pre-trib.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Even the two witnesses leave before the battle of Armageddon. Why would you want to be here after they leave?

The 2 Witnesses die at the end of Antichrist's period of uncontested rule, after 3.5 years. They die. After they die the world will send armies to Armageddon, perhaps to fight the forces of the Antichrist. It isn't very clear--we just know that it's a battle against God and Christianity. I don't see how formerly Christian nations can be fighting against the Antichrist because those nations--European nations--are the ones that apostacize and follow the Antichrist!

So, I think the Antichrist is leading formerly Christian nations against their own Christian heritage, and trying to establish that culture on earth. And God will probably send Eastern nations, such as India and China, and maybe even Islamic countries, against the European Antichrist. It isn't that these nations are Christian, but that God is using them to fight against the forces of Antichrist.

At any rate, my belief is that the time between the death of the 2 Witnesses and the Coming of Christ will be very short. I think probably that if it is a true battle, and I think it is, then it will be an atomic war. In that case, bombs will likely fall on the major cities. I wouldn't want to live in large corrupt cities anyway, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to large strategic militaray bases. On the other hand, the Battle of Armageddon may only last an hour. Whether we're blown up in an atomic blast or seized to heaven by the Lord, what difference does it make?

 

[Randy Kluth]

For me, there is the matter of the locust things in Revelation. I don't see that God will inflict those on His children, however, if they are on the earth at the time, they will be so afflicted. Of course, I've got a lot of other reasons that I'm pre-trib.

Much love!

That's okay. I'm a strong postribber, and will discuss it with anybody, as long as it brings light and not heat. I was once a pretribber, and still appreciate Hal Lindsey and Gordon Lindsay, and many other Pretribs who are friends of mine. We have an important agreement between the 2 camps, and that is Premillennialism.

Even so, I am also able to find agreement with Amils in other ways. We belong to the same Kingdom, and our common spiritual life all comes from the same Lord!

 

[marks]

That's okay. I'm a strong postribber, and will discuss it with anybody, as long as it brings light and not heat. I was once a pretribber, and still appreciate Hal Lindsey and Gordon Lindsay, and many other Pretrib friends of mine. We have an important agreement between the 2 camps, and that is Premillennialism.

Even so, I am also able to find agreement with Amils in other ways. We belong to the same Kingdom, and our common spiritual life all comes from the same Lord!

Amen!!

 

[David H.]

At any rate, my belief is that the time between the death of the 2 Witnesses and the Coming of Christ will be very short. I think probably that if it is a true battle, and I think it is, then it will be an atomic war. In that case, bombs will likely fall on the major cities. I wouldn't want to live in large corrupt cities anyway, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to large strategic militaray bases. On the other hand, the Battle of Armageddon may only last an hour. Whether we're blown up in an atomic blast or seized to heaven by the Lord, what difference does it make?

The Logistics on gathering a 200million man army, many on horseback according to scripture from a place such as china to Israel takes years to accomplish even with modern means. As an example look at the gulf wars, where we used a couple of hundred thousand troops, it took 3-4 months to deploy and arm and them. It says they will have to cross the Euphrates which means overland. This is why I believe like Matthew 24 states, the great tribulation is the beginning of the end, meaning the first half of the final week. Not to mention that spirits like frogs that empowered the beast and the false prophet must go out and raise that army by manipulating kings. So the gathering cannot begin until the rule of the beast and false prophet ends.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Logistics on gathering a 200million man army, many on horseback according to scripture from a place such as china to Israel takes years to accomplish even with modern means. As an example look at the gulf wars, where we used a couple of hundred thousand troops, it took 3-4 months to deploy and arm and them. It says they will have to cross the Euphrates which means overland. This is why I believe like Matthew 24 states, the great tribulation is the beginning of the end, meaning the first half of the final week. Not to mention that spirits like frogs that empowered the beast and the false prophet must go out and raise that army by manipulating kings. So the gathering cannot begin until the rule of the beast and false prophet ends.

Just for full disclosure, I don't always accept "horses" as literal in prophecies like this. It is dated technology, which does not indicate God Himself is dated. He just had to speak in language of the time so that they could understand the prophecy being given to them.

I think it more likely that "horses," to God, indicated a "transportation device," rather than literal horses. It isn't a major point of contention, but I do believe it will help many to understand how to apply ancient prophecies of our own time.

 

[David H.]

Just for full disclosure, I don't always accept "horses" as literal in prophecies like this. It is dated technology, which does not indicate God Himself is dated. He just had to speak in language of the time so that they could understand the prophecy being given to them.

I think it more likely that "horses," to God, indicated a "transportation device," rather than literal horses. It isn't a major point of contention, but I do believe it will help many to understand how to apply ancient prophecies of our own time.

True, But if a large part of the infrastructure of modern transportation is destroyed by the various plagues and disasters before hand then horses will be the go to means of transport. I am thinking an EMP destroying electronics or some such event, to the point that a river such as the Euphrates is an obstacle that needs to be dried up for them to proceed further. Just my thoughts....

Would be curious to know from someone with military background how many tons of provisions are needed per 1000 troops going to battle, and then you can calculate the logistics even with the existing technology. Like I said it took 3-4 months to deploy a couple of hundred thousand troops in the gulf war, 200 million is 10 times more??? which with simple math is 30 months??

 

[Randy Kluth]

True, But if a large part of the infrastructure of modern transportation is destroyed by the various plagues and disasters before hand then horses will be the go to means of transport. I am thinking an EMP destroying electronics or some such event, to the point that a river such as the Euphrates is an obstacle that needs to be dried up for them to proceed further. Just my thoughts....

Would be curious to know from someone with military background how many tons of provisions are needed per 1000 troops going to battle, and then you can calculate the logistics even with the existing technology. Like I said it took 3-4 months to deploy a couple of hundred thousand troops in the gulf war, 200 million is 10 times more??? which with simple math is 30 months??

It's not my area of interest, but it's an interesting question.

Stages of Mobilization: How quickly can the US military be anywhere in the world? For example, how quickly can we mobilize a front in Russia or North Korea or other hostiles? - Quora
The 82 and 101 are part of 18th Airborne Corps, which is the Army's Quick Reaction Force (QRF). They have units staged at different levels of readiness, and they have aircraft prepped and ready to transport them should the need arise. I believe the expectation was to be able to put a company anywhere in the world within 24 hours, a battalion within 48, and a brigade combat team in 72.... The big question is when can the rest of the Army get there, because it really is needed to sustain combat operations. Without pre-positioned equipment, this could be between 1-2 months. There is a lot of pre-positioned equipment at strategic locations, though.

Total Mobilization for a massive military buildup might be different though, and would have to consider what countries are involved. Notice below that "kings" (plural) are mobilized. So this is going to involve a number of countries, and involve likely coordination.

Rev 9.13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

Rev 16.12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

I've heard that China, Russia, and Islamic countries could be involved in this drive into Israel. Take your pick!

 

[David H.]

It's not my area of interest, but it's an interesting question.

Thanks for the reply, It is nice to have a civil discussion where we may disagree, but at the same time appreciate what the other is saying without getting defensive... i greatly appreciate that.

I wrote a post here about the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit that has the harlot riding on top of him being diverse from the Beast of Revelation 13. I think the beast of Rev. 13 is global government ruled out the west, while the latter is a conglomeration of the nations ruled out of the east, either china or the Islamic powers. They all will gather at Armageddon as a judgment on the nations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks for the reply, It is nice to have a civil discussion where we may disagree, but at the same time appreciate what the other is saying without getting defensive... i greatly appreciate that.

I wrote a post here about the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit that has the harlot riding on top of him being diverse from the Beast of Revelation 13. I think the beast of Rev. 13 is global government ruled out the west, while the latter is a conglomeration of the nations ruled out of the east, either china or the Islamic powers. They all will gather at Armageddon as a judgment on the nations.

Well yea, that's the beauty of Christian discussions. When they work right, you can enjoy good Christian fellowship while you argue details that really shouldn't affect Christian love and unity. The hope is to iron things out together. When I was younger I could learn a lot from those who had studied things more extensively than me, or who were more specialized in some areas. Now that I'm older, I tend to be a bit more dogmatic about things, but remain interested in all viewpoints.

Over time you'll hear what my views are on all these things. In a nutshell, I believe European Civilization is the 4th Beast of Dan 2 and 7. It eventually evolves into the Antichristian Empire, with 10 nations and 7 leaders, with the Antichrist being an 8th leader ruling over them all.

"Mystery Babylon" represents the city of Rome. And Roman Culture is what has defined European Civilization as "Roman" since the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 AD and in 1453 AD.