"That Wicked" has problems!

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Earburner

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I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and "even him"
.
I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.
.
In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could it have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being antichrist.
.
In the Textus Receptus Greek- 1512, ["the" wicked] is used and not ["that" wicked].
However, in the 1611- KJV, the opposite is expressed, being ["that" Wicked].
.
Secondly, now that we may have a wrong word of "that" being used, I can see why the word "Wicked" is written with an upper case "W". It's done so as to force the reader to see it in the singular.
.
At that time, during the Protestant Reformation period, it was commonly held by most Protestant churches, that the Pope was "the" Antichrist.
.
However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was without an upper case "W", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.
.
The word "Wicked" is found in the Strong's, but it is NOT found in the Young's concordance.
I have learned that when the Young's Concordance omits a word, it's because the word was purposely inserted by the translators of the KJV.
.
Conclusion:
The correct word to be used in that scripture is "the" and not "that", and therefore a capital "w" for "wicked" would not have been used as being necessary.
When the upper case "W" is used, it denotes the singular. When it's not, the plural is relevant to the verse and the context.
.
So now, having said that, let's read 2 Thes. 2:8 in a portion of the context, with the acceptable changes:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[ 11 ] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[ 12 ] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
.
OK, we are not done yet. I have found that the words "Even him", are also suspect of being an insertion by the translators. Those words are not found in the Textus Receptus Greek text. Nor are they found in Young's concordance or the Strong's.
Those words are an insertion by the KJV translators also, being evident to give support to the erroneous words "that Wicked".

So, are we looking at a fabrication, or an oversight in translation?
Given the fact that the "Protestant Reformation" was in full swing, through Martin Luther, I can see how the translators might give support to such a "just cause". Departing from the RCC was no small matter.
.
Since it is "open season" for insertions, then let it be this: "Even them".
At least, it will blend with the plural nature of the context, as well as the context of the KJV New Testament scriptures, specifically the book of 1 John.
So now, let's read it all, with all the acceptable insertions:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] [Even them], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Now I have a question, is THIS the "strong delusion to believe a lie, that God will send"?
Is "that spirit of antichrist" singular or plural?
No doubt, the wording implies that it is to be read and understood IN THE PLURAL.
.
If so many are reading that to be singular, as being one man, is that THE lie that many shall believe??
 
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Dave L

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I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and "even him"
.
I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.
.
In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could it have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being antichrist.
.
In the Textus Receptus Greek- 1512, ["the" wicked] is used and not ["that" wicked].
However, in the 1611- KJV, the opposite is expressed, being ["that" Wicked].
.
Secondly, now that we may have a wrong word of "that" being used, I can see why the word "Wicked" is written with an upper case "W". It's done so as to force the reader to see it in the singular.
.
At that time, during the Protestant Reformation period, it was commonly held by most Protestant churches, that the Pope was "the" Antichrist.
.
However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was without an upper case "W", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.
.
The word "Wicked" is found in the Strong's, but it is NOT found in the Young's concordance.
I have learned that when the Young's Concordance omits a word, it's because the word was purposely inserted by the translators of the KJV.
.
Conclusion:
The correct word to be used in that scripture is "the" and not "that", and therefore a capital "w" for "wicked" would not have been used as being necessary.
When the upper case "W" is used, it denotes the singular. When it's not, the plural is relevant to the verse and the context.
.
So now, having said that, let's read 2 Thes. 2:8 in a portion of the context, with the acceptable changes:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[ 11 ] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[ 12 ] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
.
OK, we are not done yet. I have found that the words "Even him", are also suspect of being an insertion by the translators. Those words are not found in the Textus Receptus Greek text. Nor are they found in Young's concordance or the Strong's.
Those words are an insertion by the KJV translators also, being evident to give support to the erroneous words "that Wicked".

So, are we looking at a fabrication, or an oversight in translation?
Given the fact that the "Protestant Reformation" was in full swing, through Martin Luther, I can see how the translators might give support to such a "just cause". Departing from the RCC was no small matter.
.
Since it is "open season" for insertions, then let it be this: "Even them".
At least, it will blend with the plural nature of the context, as well as the context of the KJV New Testament scriptures, specifically the book of 1 John.
So now, let's read it all, with all the acceptable insertions:
[ 7 ] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[ 8 ] And then shall [the wicked] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[ 9 ] [Even them], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[ 10 ] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Now I have a question, is THIS the "strong delusion to believe a lie, that God will send"?
Is "that spirit of antichrist" singular or plural?
No doubt, the wording implies that it is to be read and understood IN THE PLURAL.
.
If so many are reading that to be singular, as being one man, is that THE lie that many shall believe??
If Revelation "recapitulates" (repeats itself) through a series of 7 parallel accounts, then the Papacy is only one of the Antichrists with more to come. Islam is in view now.
 

Earburner

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If Revelation "recapitulates" (repeats itself) through a series of 7 parallel accounts, then the Papacy is only one of the Antichrists with more to come. Islam is in view now.
It's not my understanding to pursue "that spirit of antichrist" in groups of people, that might be dominate in the world population, but rather understand that for everyone who is not born again of God's Holy Spirit, they remain to be "condemned already", because they are still only flesh, being "a child of the devil", "the natural man", "that man of sin, the son of perdition (destruction)" .
 

Earburner

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It's not that I am trying to complicate the issue in the KJV, but rather understand WHY most of Christianity is sold over to the foolish belief of a one man band, religious, miracle man, that they all love to call "THE" Antichrist.

Aside from those verses in the KJV- 2 Thes. 2:7-12, there is no other scripture in the KJV- NT, or the OT, to support such a fantasy of outlandish fabrications.

In my next post, I will provide the evidence of my research.
 

Windmillcharge

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I have been seriously studying on four words in 2 Thes. 2:8-9, using both the KJV/Strong's and the Young's concordance: specifically the words "that Wicked", and "even him"
.
I am not looking at any other bible versions, because they are translated from the Wescott & Hort Greek text- 1881. All of such translations purposely and specifically cause the reader to falsely learn that 2 Thes. 2:8 is in the singular, as being one man.
.
In the 1611 KJV, it is very possible that a wrong word was used, being the word "that". If so, then in 1611, it could it have been done so, in order to give support to a popular false belief at that time, the Pope being antichrist.
.
In the Textus Receptus Greek- 1512, ["the" wicked] is used and not ["that" wicked].
However, in the 1611- KJV, the opposite is expressed, being ["that" Wicked].
.
Secondly, now that we may have a wrong word of "that" being used, I can see why the word "Wicked" is written with an upper case "W". It's done so as to force the reader to see it in the singular.
.
At that time, during the Protestant Reformation period, it was commonly held by most Protestant churches, that the Pope was "the" Antichrist.
.
However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was without an upper case "W", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.
.
The word "Wicked" is found in the Strong's, but it is NOT found in the Young's concordance.
I have learned that when the Young's Concordance omits a word, it's because the word was purposely inserted by the translators of the KJV.
.
Conclusion:
The correct word to be used in that scripture is "the" and not "that", and therefore a capital "w" for "wicked" would not have been used as being necessary.
When the upper case "W" is used, it denotes the singular. When it's not, the plural is relevant to the verse and the context.
.

Now I have a question, is THIS the "strong delusion to believe a lie, that God will send"?
Is "that spirit of antichrist" singular or plural?
No doubt, the wording implies that it is to be read and understood IN THE PLURAL.
.
If so many are reading that to be singular, as being one man, is that THE lie that many shall believe??

Whether it is one being or a multitude it is clear that Jesus will destroy him/them.

So I don't understand why the fuss over these words.
 

Earburner

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How 2 Thes. 2:8 reads in the Textus Receptus Greek:
Morphology
2532[e] καὶ
kai And Conj
5119[e] τότε
tote then Adv
601[e] ἀποκαλυφθήσεται
apokalyphthēsetai will be revealed V-FIP-3S
3588[e]
ho the Art-NMS
459[e] ἄνομος,
anomos lawless [one],

A. The word "the" is the original word in the Textus Receptus.

B. The word "one" is an insertion in the Textus Receptus, as noted by the [brackets]

C. How it was translated from TR Greek to the 1611-KJV
2 Thes. 2:8 (1611- KJV) and then shall that wicked bee reuealed, whome the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightnesse of his comming:
.
D. How it reads in today's KJV:
> 2 Thes. 2[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
 
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CoreIssue

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Earburner

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Now, in the TR Greek, if the word [one] was not allowed to be [inserted], that scripture would read in the plural as follows:
> and then will be revealed the lawless, whom the Lord Jesus will slay...

By allowing the scripture to read through correctly in 1611, right in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, the fantastical idea of the Pope being "THE" Antichrist, would never have been hatched!
 

Earburner

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2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
In every translation it is singular, not plural.

Why does it read singular in all of them? Because it is singular.

You are trying to forcBut failed.e your doctrinal KJVO thinking on the verse.

The KJV is from 1769. So it is wrong to talk about it as today's KJV. That is a false claim.
Since you didn't digest my research, your argument has derailed.
 

Earburner

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2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
In every translation it is singular, not plural.

Why does it read singular in all of them? Because it is singular.

You are trying to forcBut failed.e your doctrinal KJVO thinking on the verse.

The KJV is from 1769. So it is wrong to talk about it as today's KJV. That is a false claim.
BTW, in the start of my thread, I informed all that I was NOT going to reference any of the "fake" bibles,
because they are translated from the Wescott and Hort Greek text.
 

Earburner

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Not the issue here!
But since you brought up that topic, I just quickly reviewed 25 newer bible versions, translated from the Westcott/Hort Greek, and all but two force the reader to accept verse 8 to be in the singular.

Those versions, that allowed for the reality of
2 Thes. 2:8 to be read in the plural were:
The New Living Translation
God's Word Translation.
All the others stated firmly that it is in the singular:
That Wicked
The Evil one
The Lawless one
That wicked one
 

CoreIssue

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Not the issue here!
But since you brought up that topic, I just quickly reviewed 25 newer bible versions, translated from the Westcott/Hort Greek, and all but two force the reader to accept verse 8 to be in the singular.

Those versions, that allowed for the reality of
2 Thes. 2:8 to be read in the plural were:
The New Living Translation
God's Word Translation.
All the others stated firmly that it is in the singular:
That Wicked
The Evil one
The Lawless one
That wicked one
Those two are paraphrases.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.
 
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Earburner

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My reasoning for researching 2Thes. 2:8 back to the TR Greek, is for the simple fact that when Jesus returns in flaming fire, all the wicked, alive at that time, will be destroyed.
So then, let's examine that verse and the context surrounding KJV- 2 Thes. 2:8, to verify those verses that are to be read in the plural, singular or both.

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Plural

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Plural

[3] Let no man [any] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Plural/Singular

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Singular

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Plural

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Plural/Singular

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Singular

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Singular

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Singular

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Plural

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Plural

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Plural.
.

> Now, after reading KJV- 2 Thes. 2:8, which is written as being in the singular, should we read
1 Cor. 2:14 as being in the
singular also?

[ 14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned?
.
Why not??
 

CoreIssue

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My reasoning for researching 2Thes. 2:8 back to the TR Greek, is for the simple fact that when Jesus returns in flaming fire, all the wicked, alive at that time, will be destroyed.
So then, let's examine that verse and the context surrounding KJV- 2 Thes. 2:8, to verify those verses that are to be read in the plural, singular or both.

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Plural

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Plural

[3] Let no man [any] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Plural/Singular

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Singular

[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Plural

[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Plural/Singular

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Singular

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Singular

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Singular

[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Plural

[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Plural

[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
Plural.
.

> Now, after reading KJV- 2 Thes. 2:8, which is written as being in the singular, should we read
1 Cor. 2:14 as being in the
singular also?

[ 14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned?
.
Why not??
The TR was written by the Catholic priest Erasmus in the early 1500s.

So you're singing the praises of a Catholic Bible.

The simple fact that the second coming not all the wicked are destroyed. Only those who took the mark of the beast.
 

CoreIssue

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Now, in the TR Greek, if the word [one] was not allowed to be [inserted], that scripture would read in the plural as follows:
> and then will be revealed the lawless, whom the Lord Jesus will slay...

By allowing the scripture to read through correctly in 1611, right in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, the fantastical idea of the Pope being "THE" Antichrist, would never have been hatched!
Yes I understand you are very supportive of Catholicism.

Who says the 1611 is the only true word of God? Especially when it's loaded with linguistic errors.