The “Old Man” and the Me

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Netchaplain

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What does Scripture intend by the use of, “the old man” (Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col 3:9)? Is it an entity, such as a person or an angel? Whatever it is, Scripture’s reference to it attributes it as the determining factor of the quality of an individual. What is it within a person that determines their words, thoughts, feelings and actions? Is it not the nature of an individual? It could not be more correct to assume the old man is the original nature of man, which Adam as the progenitor has hereditarily “passed upon all men” (Rom 5:12, 15, 17, 19).

Whether your view is eradication or existential (continued) concerning the Adamic nature, it cannot affect the receiving or retaining of salvation; but this view does affect the believer’s condition concerning the growth within salvation.

During the pre-Cross dispensation, man possessed a single nature which Scripture ascribes as “sinful” (Rom. 5:12; 7:13; 1 John 1:8); and now in the post-Cross dispensation the believer has been given an additional nature or “new man,” which Scripture ascribes as “righteousness and true holiness” (Eph. 4:24). Through the Spirit, in conjunction with the new nature and through the Cross-restraint condition (effected by Christ and administered by the Spirit) of the old nature (Rom. 6:6), the Father “conforms” the regenerate “to the image of His Son” (Rom. 8:29)—“from glory to glory” (2 Cor. 3:18).

Scripture, for its general usage concerning the sinful nature refers to it as “the flesh”; which nature (flesh) is “the carnal mind” and “is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom. 8:7). This is that nature which the Holy Spirit opposes within the believer, inasmuch that “the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish” (Gal. 5:17 NKJV). It is also depicted as a dichotomy of natures (old and new man) in Romans Seven, where the new nature is represented as the new “I” (vs. 17, 20), “the inward man” (v. 22) and “the mind” (v. 25); and the old nature represented as “carnal “(v. 14), “flesh” (vs. 18, 25), “evil” (vs. 19, 21).

Finally, the new nature is also depicted as “His (Christ) seed” (1 John 3:9), which complies with Colossians 3:10: “and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him (Christ) who created him (it—new nature).” It is the one “born again” (believer) in his new nature that cannot sin, but still does sin in his old nature (Rom. 7:25). The “seed” cannot refer to Christ because He did not require regeneration (born again)—being the Regenerator—through the Spirit.

It has been well said, “the lost need saved and the saved needs delivered”; delivered from the bondage of not knowing and thus, not appropriating the freedom available to the believer; which appropriation can be established in walking “circumspectly” (of self, Satan and society), “not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil” (Eph. 5:15, 16).
 

dragonfly

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Hi Bob,

The old man of Romans 6:6 is very specifically 'OUR old man'. This is the clue to how personally specific to every human being Christ took the Adamic nature down into death with Him, (Adam being the federal head of the human race). Genesis 5:1, 2, 3. We are in Adam's own likeness and image.

Those who receive this death through receiving Christ's death, are free to reside in Christ's life, no longer IN BONDAGE to Adam's nature as it had been affected by His disobedience (rebellion) against God.

That is the choice - to abide in Christ. That has to be the on-going active choice of the believer - where choice = desire of heart outworked in action.

There is an assumption in the NT that the person coming to Christ has weighed up the alternatives, and he actively chooses to leave the world and sin for the prize of the knowledge of God through Jesus Christ our Saviour and Lord.

God seeks to restore us to God's likeness and image.

This His work in us through the Holy Spirit, after we have accepted redemption through His blood and forgiveness of sins.
 

Netchaplain

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dragonfly said:
"Christ took the Adamic nature down into death with Him'
DF - I'm convinced you have a sincere concern for the truth, as all believers should, but as we've often traversed this issue, we've only seen Scripture that discloses we were crucified and died, but Scripture is void of disclosing that our "old man" was crucified and died.

The significance concerning our death is that it must obviously precede spiritual resurrection (not yet physical resurrection) for regeneration, which was applied to us and not our nature. This is the reason for the additional "new man" (nature), because regenerating the old nature would not establish a "new" (not preexisting) one.

I believe many do not realize that if we were void of the "old man" (sin nature) we would be void of sin and that those with such a concept (being sinless) are at a great disadvantage, concerning not only their spiritual growth, but also the truth.

With Unconditional Love
 

dragonfly

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Hi Bob,

The following presentation is making me review everything about how I express the problem of 'sin'. I don't have all the answers I want, yet, but I can see from the facts presented in the following, that a lot of theology has been laid on top of scripture, which has no basis in the Book itself.

That is BIG food for thought. To a certain extent I feel some relief, because I know that I have pulled down many strongholds; I know I've repented of sin as prescribed by the Lord; and, and I experience victory over sin and temptation. Something is working the way it is supposed to, according to the NT. I do not experience continual sinning. I do not believe my 'old man' is alive and in control.

Please be prepared to be surprised and astonished that favourite commentators may be perpetuating a lie which is not in scripture.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q
 

Netchaplain

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dragonfly said:
Please be prepared to be surprised and astonished that favourite commentators may be perpetuating a lie which is not in scripture.
Hi DF - Thanks for sharing the video Brother but the narrator is denying the possession of the sin nature, which is the primary rudiment concerning the believer's condition. Regardless of the believers view concerning this issue, it will not affect union with God, only fellowship and it's our fellowship which sustains how we "endure hardness" and learn from the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

The possession of the sin nature and sinning is a nominally significant issue concerning the believer's union, because of the total lack of guilt and dominion from it.

As the video indicated, getting it wrong here will determine your understanding of sin (which affects spiritual growth), which is the same concept I've indicated in some of my posts.

DF - For the believer, sinning is never a desire from his new nature but always derives from our old nature. This should translate to the understanding that since sinning is not what we live for, it should show less and less in our life-style, as we progress from understanding to understanding (glory to glory); but it will never mean in this life that we will be without sin or stop sinning, which I believe is just a prideful aspiration and deception from the old nature (no offense intended).
 

dragonfly

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Hi Bob,

No offence taken. :)

I shared the video with you because I believe that as Christians, we are called upon to believe only God's word. We are warned by Paul and by John, not to embrace worldly philosophy, and therefore, I can see that the narrator's failure to discover in scripture, doctrine expressed in the language with which we are familiar, (such as 'sin nature', which I myself have used) poses a real difficulty for the conscientious seeker, as It is not there.

The question then should be: in that case, what does scripture actually reveal to us?

We all need to be careful not to set store by what we think the Bible says, only, because the Lord knows exactly what He meant, and I believe He has communicated enough of His mind through His many witnesses, for us to be able to arrive at a legitimate understanding of His word.

I was brought up with the doctrine of original sin, and without doubt there is a weakness in the flesh (Romans 8:3), but is that 'a sin nature'?
 

Episkopos

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Once the heart is renewed through the Spirit, the battleground becomes the mind with our mentality and attitudes. So many Christians point to their heart as they continue with their pride, stubborness, and prejudices. God will permit that for awhile but unless we grow and bear fruit, we will be rejected. Our job is to forsake the dead works of the flesh in order to be renewed to bear fruit.
 

IanLC

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Wonderful we must die to sin, crucify the flesh, deny self and be resurrected in the Spirit. Jesus has saved from sin to deliver us from sinning.
 

Netchaplain

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"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12). The reason why death passed to all is because sin passed to all, "for all sin." We were "made sinners" by Adam (v 19).

John Gill-- "Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world". The design of these words and of the following, is to show how men came to be in the condition before described, as "ungodly," Romans 5:6, "sinners," Romans 5:8, and "enemies," Romans 5:10; and to express the love of Christ in the redemption of them; and the largeness of God's grace to all sorts of men: the connection of them is with Romans 5:11, by which it appears that the saints have not only an expiation of sin by the blood of Christ, but a perfect righteousness, by which they are justified in the sight of God; and the manner how they came at it, or this becomes theirs, together with the necessity of their having such an one, are here declared.

By the "one man" is meant Adam the first man, and parent of mankind, who is mentioned by name in Romans 5:14; sin which came by him designs a single sin, and not many, even the first sin of Adam, which goes by different names, as "sin" here, "transgression," Romans 5:14, the "offence" or "fall," Romans 5:15, "disobedience," Romans 5:19, and whatever was the first step or motive to it, which led to it, whether pride, unbelief, or concupiscence, it was finished by eating the forbidden fruit; and is called sin emphatically, because it contained all sin in it, was attended with aggravating circumstances, and followed with dismal consequences.

Hence may be learnt the origin of moral evil among men, which comes not from God, but man; of this it is said, that it "entered into the world"; not the world above, there sin entered by the devil; but the world below, and it first entered into paradise, and then passed through the whole world; it entered into men by the snares of Satan, and by him it enters into all the inhabitants of the world; into all men that descend from him by ordinary generation, and that so powerfully that there is no stopping of it.

It has entered by him, not by imitation, for it has entered into such as never sinned after the similitude of his transgression, infants, or otherwise death could not have entered into them, and into such who never heard of it, as the Heathens; besides, sin entered as death did, which was not by imitation but imputation, for all men are reckoned dead in Adam, being accounted sinners in him; add to this, that in the same way Christ's righteousness comes upon us, which is by imputation, Adam's sin enters into us, or becomes ours; upon which death follows,

"And death by sin;" that is, death has entered into the world of men by sin, by the first sin of the first man; not only corporeal death, but a spiritual or moral one, man, in consequence of this, becoming "dead in sin," deprived of righteousness, and averse, and impotent to all that is good; and also an eternal death, to which he is liable; for "the wages of sin is death," Romans 6:23; even eternal death: all mankind are in a legal sense dead, the sentence of condemnation and death immediately passed on Adam as soon as he had sinned, and upon all his posterity."