The 144,000 in Revelation 7

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robert derrick

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A Jew is not a Jew outwardly but inwardly, and believers in Jesus are the new seed of promise of Abraham, while the Jews and Israel 'after the flesh' (Romans 9:3)(1 Cor 10:18) have been cut off in unbelief. Them that believe are the new Israel of God (Eph 2:12) and His new holy nation (Ex 19:6)(1 Peter 2:9), not the nation of descendant Jews by the flesh. They have made themselves just another nation and tribe of people on the earth. There is no more 'gentile and Jew', but only believers of Jesus and the nations of the earth.

So, when James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, that of course was the scattered Christians of the day and today. I.e. the churches of God are the new 12 tribes of Israel.

Now, whether there will be an actual 144,000 Christians specially sealed outwardly in the forehead at some future time, remains to be seen.

However much more important is how Revelation 7 can apply to us that are alive now at this time.

Since we are all sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, then why not acknowledge it in prayer? We see that God seals His saints in the foreheads, when He commands the angels to hold the winds from blowing.

Therefore, perhaps we should likewise seek the 'still' times of God's sealing of us by His Spirit. And know for a certainty how to "Peace, be still". And lay down beside the "still waters" and fear no evil. We should do as the Psalm commands, "Be still, and know that I am God" by knowing personally that we are sealed of God in the times of stillness, especially during times of much tribulation. (Acts 14:22)

So rather than fearing great tribulation or praying we can avoid it, we should rather seek to go through it to enter into the peace and kingdom of God.

(Not that I am praying for it to happen, of course)
 
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robert derrick

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I reject the argument of a pre-trib rapture. There are too many 'explanation and reasoning' hoops to go thru to try and prove it from Scripture. I would like you to consider some questions and points of Scripture.

1. Since we- the Church today and tomorrow-are SUPPOSED to go thru much tribulation to enter the kingdom of God (Acts 14:12). Why would God then take us out of the way of THE greatest of all tribulation just when it is at our very door? We are not appointed to wrath, but we certainly are promised tribulation to endure for the sake of purifying and preparing us for His 1st resurrection? Especially and specifically the tribulation of the last days.(Deut 4)(Dan 12) Although we dont pray for it, we ought rather want to go through it than avoid it. Which is in fact scripturally God's Word on the subject.

2. If only Rev 1-4 pertain to them that believe Jesus today, and Rev 5 onward, at least until Rev 19, only pertains to those who believe not Jesus today, i.e. those of Jewish descent to abide in unbelief. Why would God have Rev 5-18 be written in the first place? Afterall, tongues are a sign for them that do not believe and prophecy is NOT for them that do not believe, but for them that believe. (1 Cor 14:22) God does not waste time writing prophecy to unbelievers today, especially not to them that have already heard and rejected His Word. I am not saying there wont be Jewish descendants grafted back into God's people, because they are today.

3. On this note, Scripture tells us (Rev 1:3) we are blessed who read and hear the words of this prophecy, i.e. Revelation, (which are for believers ONLY) and keep those things written therein. Which includes ALL those things written therein, including Ch 5-18. We are to KEEP them, as in commandments and doctrine and rule of Christ. Why keep for rule of life that which does not pertain to us? And how will them that believe not today care at all about keeping those things written therein in the first place? Rev 1:3 as an injunction of God is therefore nonsensical, both to the believers concerning ALL that is written, and to unbelievers concerning any of it that is written.

4. Why would God today or tomorrow turn solely and specifically to the Jews of the flesh AGAIN to fulfill the promise of humbling them, which He made to their physical Patriarch Abraham, when He already did so ONCE BEFORE in the Person of Jesus Christ? And they received Him not and had Him crucified instead of being humbled as a people and nation of God. Or was Jesus not the promised One to fulfill the prophesies of the last days to the children of Jacob, as the Scriptures plainly state? (Acts 2:17) (Heb 1:2) (I John 2:18) There is no more promise of Scripture that God must fulfill to Abraham as pertains to his natural seed. Period. Been there and done that, and they killed the One who made the promise in the first place.

5. How can we speak in terms of a current Gentile Church and a future Jewish Church of Jesus Christ, when there is no more respect of persons after the flesh with God, nor is there any difference between Jew and Gentile, male and female, in the body of Jesus Christ? As well as neither we, nor God, no more know any man, nor Jesus Himself, after the flesh? (2 Cor 5:16) In fact, in this context, it would be more accurate to say a current Gentile Church VS a future Jewish Church. Which only brings in separation, contention, and pride.

6. Why are there only 2 places that Scripture even speaks of natural Jews in Revelation, and that is when Jesus calls them liars for saying they are Jews in the first place? In fact, the only real Jews today are Christians. We who are circumcised of the heart and are Jews inwardly. (Rom 2) The point being, why would God turn specifically and only to a people, that as far as He is concerned, no longer exist. A people in fact that ceased to exist, when He cut them off for having His Son killed. There are no more 'Jews and Gentiles', but only Christians, His holy nation, and the rest of the nations of the earth. (Including the Jewish kind).

God has already fulfilled His promise to Abraham concerning his natural seed. Those who still call themselves 'Jews' as the promised natural seed of Abraham are liars before God. Tribulation from the beast is used by God for our good to go thru. Tribulation from God is nothing but anguish to them that believe not (Rom 2:9). No Scripture anywhere confirms the 1st Resurrection is prior to the rise of the 1st beast. In fact, Rev 6:9 speaks plainly of a resurrection of the martyrs that is to come only after fellow believers are likewise martyred. There is only ONE 1st resurrection. Which frankly must likewise include the witnesses of Rev 11.

There is no Scriptural proof that the 1st resurrection is before the 1st beast, nor is there any reason to construct an all-Jewish church during the rise of the 1st beast, since the Gospel of the cross will remain the same, in that God would still have ALL men to be saved at that time. There also is no more difference with God between Jew and Greek, and indeed there no longer exists any difference between Jew and Gentile. Not so far as God is concerned, and He has said so many times, in the Scriptures following the death and resurrection of Jesus.
 

robert derrick

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Whether it is an actual number of sealed saints at some certain time, or a 'matrix' or symbolic number of totality of saints at one time, is not readily known.

However, without Scripture specifically saying it is symbolic, as Scripture does elsewhere, then you cant go wrong believing it literally.

That said, Rev 7:7 at the end of the 144,000 being sealed, immediately goes to the time of ALL saints of God in heaven without number...
(7:7...that would be a perfect number of Scripture of God, I suppose, if we are being symbolic)
 
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marks

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Whether it is an actual number of sealed saints at some certain time, or a 'matrix' or symbolic number of totality of saints at one time, is not readily known.

However, without Scripture specifically saying it is symbolic, as Scripture does elsewhere, then you cant go wrong believing it literally.

That said, Rev 7:7 at the end of the 144,000 being sealed, immediately goes to the time of ALL saints of God in heaven without number...
(7:7...that would be a perfect number of Scripture of God, I suppose, if we are being symbolic)
I disagee, we can accept the reading of a "prophetic narrative" just like we do the others.

And considering the detail in giving a number from each tribe, it seems to me God intends us to read this at face value.

And the fact that this says, "THE servants of God" are sealed, and there are 144,000, and that they are all Jewish, well, one must wonder what happened to all the gentile servants of God.

Oh, wait, John sees them next, before the throne!

:)

Much love!
 
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quietthinker

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I disagee, we can accept the reading of a "prophetic narrative" just like we do the others.

And considering the detail in giving a number from each tribe, it seems to me God intends us to read this at face value.

And the fact that this says, "THE servants of God" are sealed, and there are 144,000, and that they are all Jewish, well, one must wonder what happened to all the gentile servants of God.

Oh, wait, John sees them next, before the throne!

:)

Much love!
this is my angle.....all in Adam....all in Christ. If all are in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.....there is neither past or present ....there is neither male or female.

God does not show favouritism to the seed of men re Salvation. He does not segregate because of ethnicity or time. Humans are saved because they did not spurn the gift given them. It was given before they were born.....it was given before they knew about it.....it was given solely because of God's tender kindness toward the seed of Adam.

Jesus became the second Adam.....he now represents the race. This arrangement is independent of Mans choice. The Good News goes to all who breath and walk the Earth. Man can now decide which man they will have over them.

Historical Israel was also a type, of which the antitype is/are God's people from the get go. Interpreting Prophecy must be consistent with this approach.
 
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marks

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this is my angle.....all in Adam....all in Christ. If all are in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.....there is neither past or present ....there is neither male or female.

God does not show favouritism to the seed of men re Salvation. He does not segregate because of ethnicity or time. Humans are saved because they did not spurn the gift given them. It was given before they were born.....it was given before they knew about it.....it was given solely because of God's tender kindness toward the seed of Adam.

Jesus became the second Adam.....he now represents the race. This arrangement is independent of Mans choice. The Good News goes to all who breath and walk the Earth. Man can now decide which man they will have over them.

Historical Israel was also a type, of which the antitype is/are God's people from the get go. Interpreting Prophecy must be consistent with this approach.
For me, so much of prophecy makes no sense at all unless it's talking about being fulfilled in a ethnic people, Israel.

For instance, the land allotments, or the millenial kingdom, the Apostles judging the 12 tribes, David being raised to be king over them, things like that.

Much love!
 

quietthinker

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For me, so much of prophecy makes no sense at all unless it's talking about being fulfilled in a ethnic people, Israel.

For instance, the land allotments, or the millenial kingdom, the Apostles judging the 12 tribes, David being raised to be king over them, things like that.

Much love!
all these references become metaphors for God's people in and on the Earth made new. The old order of things will pass away completely. There will be no trace of the old system.....sin, sinners and all that defiles will be gone forever and God's people from all ages will inherit the Earth...with God making his abode with them.

This breathtaking generosity is totally alien to human beings in the system (the age) we are now in. Trying to shoehorn the current order into the forever order is a misunderstanding.
 

Truman

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I disagee, we can accept the reading of a "prophetic narrative" just like we do the others.

And considering the detail in giving a number from each tribe, it seems to me God intends us to read this at face value.

And the fact that this says, "THE servants of God" are sealed, and there are 144,000, and that they are all Jewish, well, one must wonder what happened to all the gentile servants of God.

Oh, wait, John sees them next, before the throne!

:)

Much love!
Hey, Marks. All Jewish? C'mon, man. Remember, there's 12 tribes. Shalom. :)
 

marks

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all these references become metaphors for God's people in and on the Earth made new. The old order of things will pass away completely. There will be no trace of the old system.....sin, sinners and all that defiles will be gone forever and God's people from all ages will inherit the Earth...with God making his abode with them.

This breathtaking generosity is totally alien to human beings in the system (the age) we are now in. Trying to shoehorn the current order into the forever order is a misunderstanding.
I'm not talking about in the new heaven and new earth. But there are a number of promises from God to Israel that will be fulfilled on the bases of those specific peoples, IE which tribe gets what real estate, and what the commerce of Jerusalem would be, and there's a long list of things.

I'm not saying the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones in the new creation, I don't know whether that will be true or not, but I do see that prophesied for the kingdom age, prior to the new creation.

Much love!
 

marks

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Hey, Marks. All Jewish? C'mon, man. Remember, there's 12 tribes. Shalom. :)
Well, yes, aren't the 12 tribes Jewish? Or are you one who limits "Jew" to the tribe of Judah? Or do you include Benjamin, that is, the Southern Kingdom?

I'm just not sure if you mean something like this, or something else.

Much love!
 

quietthinker

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I'm not talking about in the new heaven and new earth. But there are a number of promises from God to Israel that will be fulfilled on the bases of those specific peoples, IE which tribe gets what real estate, and what the commerce of Jerusalem would be, and there's a long list of things.

I'm not saying the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones in the new creation, I don't know whether that will be true or not, but I do see that prophesied for the kingdom age, prior to the new creation.

Much love!
The major event on the near horizon will be the return of Jesus in the clouds of Heaven and every eye shall see him. As the nations are rallying to unite.....as the global movement for unity using any pretext is in full swing....as there is distress of nations for many reasons, such as never was, ratcheting up.....in the days of these Kings the God of Heaven will set up a Kingdom never to be destroyed (Daniel)

A time of trouble, particularly for Gods people will encompass the globe.
When from all human perspective it appears like the enemy has the irreversible upper hand....when the forces of evil overwhelm and the power of God's people is broken.....then the end comes....God steps in as a stone cut without hands. (Daniel)
 

Truman

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Well, yes, aren't the 12 tribes Jewish? Or are you one who limits "Jew" to the tribe of Judah? Or do you include Benjamin, that is, the Southern Kingdom?

I'm just not sure if you mean something like this, or something else.

Much love!
Do you think Naphtali is Jewish?
 

Truman

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There is the southern kingdom of the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, and some Levites), and the northern kingdom of the house of Israel (ten tribes and Levites). When read in context, I've found the scripture to be very accurate.
It matters to me because I've traced my ancestry back to Naphtali.
 

robert derrick

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God does not show favouritism to the seed of men re Salvation. He does not segregate because of ethnicity or time.

I agree. What is so hard to understand that there is neither Jew nor Greek before God anymore? The Jewish bloodline cut themselves off from Abraham as the promised seed, every bit as much as they did from the promised Messiah, when they had Him crucified. The Israel of God and promised seed of Abraham are now all believers in Christ Jesus, including any 'Jewish' people who abide not in unbelief.

The Jewish people who abide in unbelief literally made themselves just another one of the nations of the earth. They are no different as a nation than any other before God, and the 'Jews' religion' is just as false as any other that does not believe Jesus as Son of God and Savior.

'Evangelical' Christians have a favorite passion in defending Jews as the continued promised seed of Abraham. One such said that we know the Lord isn't returning yet, or the end times aren't here yet, because the Jews haven't rebuilt their temple yet. That is the same attitude as the wicked servant who said "My Lord delays His coming" in Matthew 24.

If God will be solely interested in humbling the Jewish nation and people in Revelation, then why is His angel flying as late as Rev 14 through the midst of heaven preaching the everlasting Gospel to ALL nations and kindreds...

Great tribulation in the last days before the Lord's return is God's final warning to ALL humanity to repent and worship the true God. As Jesus said, it will be as in the days of Noah. They had 70 years while the ark was being prepared to repent, and it looks like there will be at least three and half years worldwide turmoil and trouble for mankind to do likewise. Get in the boat or be left behind to drown in the flood to come. Only this time it won't be a flood of water but of bright Light and power. The unrepentant wont be drowned in place, but burnt and dissolved on the spot. Whether Jew or Greek.
 

marks

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There is the southern kingdom of the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, and some Levites), and the northern kingdom of the house of Israel (ten tribes and Levites). When read in context, I've found the scripture to be very accurate.
It matters to me because I've traced my ancestry back to Naphtali.
Then does "Jew" refer to all? Some?

Much love!
 

robert derrick

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"Anyone know what happened to Dan?"

Good question. It demonstrates that the 144,000 'of all the tribes of the children of Israel...' cannot possibly be referring to the children of Israel of the Old Covenant. Otherwise, it would be a false statement, since one of those, Dan, tribes are not listed. And it is not true that all of the offspring of Dan have died out. Even so, Scripture would not be able to say of ALL the tribes...James 1:1 confirms that there are still 12 tribes.

If Rev 7 is referring to the Old Covenant Jewish tribes of Israel, then we would see an actual contradiction of Scripture.

The answer of course is simple, if you're not complicating things of prophecy by insisting God still has a duty to perform a promise to Abraham as pertains to his seed of the flesh: Jewish descendants. That duty of promise, oath of blessing, was performed by sending His Son Jesus to them first. And they are the ones who first rejected Him. And so now the promise and oath are offered to any who believe, whether Jew of Greek.

Christians with circumcision of heart are the New Covenant Jews of God, of which He still has 12, as confirmed in James 1:1. We are the New Israel of God, and His churches are the New 12 tribes of the Israel of God. And the names He now gives to His 12 tribes are listed in Rev 7. And it includes Levi, rather than Dan, because Levi became the first priesthood for God, and Dan became the first reprobate from God.

And so in Rev 7, there will be 144,000 serving Christians of God that will be sealed in their foreheads. Spiritually this is already fulfilled by the Spirit with all them that believe Jesus. (Acts 1:8) (2 Cor 1:22) (Ephesians 1:13) And so we could say Scripturally that we are likewise sealed when the winds are still and we lie down beside still waters at peace with Jesus, and we know the Lord that He is God (Psalm 46:10).