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The 144K and Zechariah 14:1-5

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by guysmith, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    In Revelation 14 the 144K are seen standing with Christ (at His advent) on Mount Zion in Jerusalem. In Zech 14:1-5 Christ (at His advent) comes to protect half the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Wouldn't it be safe to say that some of these inhabitants of Jerusalem (at that time) would be male and part of the 144K?

    In Yehoshua,
    Guy Smith
     
  2. day

    day New Member

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    You seem to be interpreting the 144,000 very literally. Revelation is a book characterized by symbolism. It would seem that the 144,000 from among the tribes of Israel would symbolize all the Jews as distinct from the peoples of every tribe and nation which refer to everyone else. They are considered virgins because they have always been faithful to the one true God, and not prostituted themselves with the harlots (the false gods of the Gentile nations). Whereas the vast multitude came from the worship of false gods to worship the true God. The 144,000 are firstfruits because God chose Israel first among the peoples of the earth. Otherwise, how could they be firstfruits since they come at the end of the harvest?
     
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  3. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    That is funny. So how many witnesses will come when the two witnesses come in Revelation 11?

    Guysmith,

    The 144,000 are sealed after the 6th seal. Zechariah 14:1-4 happens latter at the middle of the tribulation.

    Those Jews that flee down the valley to the east will go to live with the survivors of Moab at the river ford on the

    Arnon River, which is 1/3 of the way south on Jordon side of the Dead Sea Isaiah 16:1-5 KJV. When the army

    of the antichrist follows the Jews down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow the army of antichrist as the Red Sea

    swallowed the army of Egypt Revelation 12:14-17.


    The 144,000 Jews in heavenRevelation 14: 1-4 were redeemed from the earth at about the same time the two witnesses were called up to heaven.
     
  4. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, day.

    You seem not to be interpreting the 144,000 literally enough! Revelation is a book that SEEMS to be characterized by symbolism to modern, Western thinkers who have no background about the Hebraic origins and understanding of the book! When Yochanan called them "btuwliym," translated into Greek as "parthenoi," and into the English as "virgins," he was being literal because he also included the phrase translated as "hoi meta gunaikoon ouk emoluntheesan," translated word-for-word as "the-(ones) with women/wives not were-blackened/soiled/sullied."

    And, how do you deem that they are at the "end of the harvest?!" They are sealed after the sixth seal is opened and before the seventh seal is opened in Revelation 7:1-8 cf. 6:12-17 and 8:1. Yet, we read in Revelation 11:15-19 that it's not until the seventh messenger blows his shofar that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD and of His Messiah:

    Revelation 11:15-19
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
    KJV


    The timing of these events should be taken from the Scriptures, not imposed upon the Scriptures from one's theological/eschatological point of view.

    *****

    Shalom, Guy.

    You're absolutely correct. Z'kharyahu's prophecy in chapters 12 through 14 particularly should be seen as a unit.

    Zechariah 12:7-14
    7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
    8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
    9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
    KJV


    Zechariah 13:8-9:11
    8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
    9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
    14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
    10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
    11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
    KJV

    While a portion of this prophecy was fulfilled during the Messiah's first advent, the rest will be fulfilled at His second advent! As I've noted in other topics of discussion, these family names, David, Natan, Leviy, and the Shim`iy, in that order are also found in the lineage of the Messiah in Luke 3:

    Zechariah 12:9-14
    9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
    all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
    10 and I will pour out on the house of David
    and on those living in Yerushalayim
    a spirit of grace and prayer;
    and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”

    They will mourn for him
    as one mourns for an only son;
    they will be in bitterness on his behalf
    like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
    11 When that day comes, there will be
    great mourning in Yerushalayim,
    mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
    in the Megiddo Valley.
    12 Then the land will mourn,
    each family by itself —
    the family of the house of David by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the house of Natan by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
    and their wives by themselves;
    14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
    and their wives by themselves.
    CJB


    Luke 3:23-38
    23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
    24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
    25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
    26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
    27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
    28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
    29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
    30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
    31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
    32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
    33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
    34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
    35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
    36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
    37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
    38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
    CJB


    So, for them to mourn for the Messiah's wounds - their great, great, ... grandson of their FIRSTBORN son or their ONLY son - when the Messiah rescues Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), they must also be present! That means that they have already had their RESURRECTION, for these families, related VERTICALLY (not horizontally) in the family tree, are generations apart!
     
  5. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    Shalom Retrobyter,

    Is it possible that the only males on Mount Zion described in Zech 14:1-5 will be the 144K?

    In Yehoshua,
    Guy Smith
     
  6. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba New Member

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    Could be I suppose .... but wouldn't we have to include the 144k in the general population ??

    I have this overriding feeling that the 144k and the 2 witnesses are "set apart" in the world during those times

    The 144k are already protected (sealed) and would not require Christ to protect them at his advent

    Hard to say .... just some thoughts from me.
     
  7. guysmith

    guysmith New Member

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    [SIZE=12pt]Shalom Arnie,[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]The Bible identifies eight (4 men + 4 women) that survived the flood. Just “as the day of Noah,” the Bible also identifies the number of believers that will survive the coming tribulation and be alive at Christ advent. That number is 144K males and the females are identified as “the daughters of Zion” (Isaiah 4). [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]There is a great misunderstanding concerning the 144K. This misunderstanding is that the 144K will be evangelizing Jews found throughout the world. Reality is that the 144K + the two witnesses will be located in the same place, “a place prepared of God” (Rev 12:6) [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]Just as the eight were centrally located in one place to ride out the storm, the two witnesses, the 144K and the “daughters of Zion” will be centrally located in this “place prepared of God” to ride out the future storm. And where is this place? Figure out where the two witnesses will be for the 1260 of the GT and you will have your answer. Any ideas?[/SIZE]


    [SIZE=12pt]The seal of God in their foreheads is designed to protect them from the trumpet and vial plagues. Christ's comes (in Zechariah 14:1-5) to protect them from an army assault.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=12pt]In Yehoshua,[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=12pt]Guy Smith[/SIZE]
     
  8. Eric E Stahl

    Eric E Stahl New Member

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    Zechariah 14:1-4 happens at the middle of the 7 years of tribulation. When Jesus helps the Jews escape from Jerusalem by cleaving the mount of olives he does not bring the armies of heaven with him as Revelation 19 describes. When Israel the woman flees in Revelation 12:14-17 the devil persecutes her for a times, time and half a time or 3.5 years.
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    The 144,000 actually are literal Israelites. But at Rev.7:9 is the start of the subject of saved Gentiles that will also be sealed by God's sealing.

    A thorough study of the subject of God's mark of sealing per Rev.9 must go with that Rev.7 chapter understanding.

    What specifically is that sealing of Rev.7 about? It's for the events of the last days just prior to Christ's return, because that's what the four angels holding the four winds from blowing on the earth is about. Those are to be 'sealed' before that blowing.

    Rev 9:4-5
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;
    but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    (KJV)


    I forget the type of expression that's called, but it's like when you define something by describing what it is not. So if the locusts can only torment those 'without' God's sealing, and can't kill the unsealed, what does it mean for those who are... sealed?

    Once that's properly understood, then more of what that sealing in the end is for is revealed. It is a spiritual sealing in prep for some event, because since the locusts will be able to kill God's servants that are sealed, but NOT kill the unsealed, what's that mean?

    In Rev.9 we're also shown how the locusts work as horsemen going to battle, and what destroys comes out of their 'mouths'. It's all pointing to lies of deception coming out of their mouths, the stinging actually being deception. Thus God's sealing of Rev.7 & 9 is for His servants so they will not be deceived by some event to come upon the earth prior to the four winds being loosed.

    So then, is it possible that only 144,000 of the 'seed' of Israel will not be deceived in the end prior to Christ's second coming?

    Yes, very much so. And mind you, that's pointing to 12 tribes, not just Jews. The Jews historically only represent 3 tribes of Israel per Bible and actual history (thus 36,000 Jews). The rest of the 144,000 represent the scattered remnants of the ten lost tribes which God scattered among the Gentiles. Even the Jew's own Bible scholars don't know where those ten tribes are today. But they know they were separated from them long ago and their whereabouts lost (but God knows where they are, as per Amos 9:9).

    What misleads many brethren about the 144,000 is that they seem to think it means the only ones of the seed of Israel that will ever be saved. That's not true, for even after Christ's return they still have the "thousand years" to go through. No one goes into the lake of fire until after the thousand years is over and the books are opened. And per Rom.11 by Apostle Paul, we know God Himself has 'blinded' Israel in part for today so The Gospel could go to the Gentiles. Thus it is my very strong Biblical conviction that many of the seed of Israel will come to Christ Jesus as Lord in final once their 'blindness' is removed, when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
     
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