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Featured The Absurdity of Preterism

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Enoch111, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    There is actually an International Preterist Association from whose web site I have obtained this quote (so that none may say that I am misrepresenting them): “Preterist” means past in fulfillment, and “Futurist” means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist. Futurists believe most end-time prophecies (especially the big three events — the Second Coming, Resurrection, and Judgment) are yet to be fulfilled. Preterists believe that most or all of Bible Prophecy (especially the big three events) has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Eternal Kingdom...The final events of the redemptive drama came to pass in the first century within the apostles’ generation (before A.D. 70). Christ’s kingdom is here now. Paradise has been restored in Christ (for our afterlife in heaven above). Christ has conquered all His enemies and has given us His Eternal Kingdom, “of the increase of which there shall be no end” (Isaiah 9:6-7).
    http://www.preterist.org/about-us/what-is-preterist-view/

    Got Questions further clarifies this absurd view:
    According to preterism, all prophecy in the Bible is really history. The preterist interpretation of Scripture regards the book of Revelation as a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past.” Thus, preterism is the view that the biblical prophecies concerning the “end times” have already been fulfilled—in the past. Preterism is directly opposed to futurism, which sees the end-times prophecies as having a still-future fulfillment... The “new heavens and new earth” spoken of in Revelation 21:1 is, to the preterist, a description of the world under the New Covenant. Just as a Christian is made a “new creation” (2 Corinthians 5:17), so the world under the New Covenant is a “new earth.” This aspect of preterism can easily lead to a belief in replacement theology...The apostle Paul warned against those who, like Hymenaeus and Philetus, teach falsely “that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some” (2 Timothy 2:17–18).
    https://www.gotquestions.org/preterist.html

    Some even believe that Preterism is heretical, although it is more laughable, bizarre, and absurd than anything else:
    On the other hand, there is a form of preterism that is quite heretical. This theory argues that all Bible prophecy has been fulfilled. Nothing remains on the prophetic calendar. This radical preterism was championed by James Stuart Russell (1816-95), a Congregational clergyman in England. Russell authored a book titled, The Parousia, (from a Greek word meaning “coming” or “presence”), which first appeared in 1878. Russell set forth the idea that the second coming of Christ, the judgment day, etc., are not future events at the end of the current dispensation. Rather, prophecies relating to these matters were fulfilled with Jerusalem’s fall in A.D. 70. There is, therefore, no future “second coming” of Christ. Moreover, there will be no resurrection of the human body. Also, the final judgment and the end of the world have occurred already—with the destruction of Jerusalem. Advocates of this bizarre dogma claim that the preterist movement is growing wildly. It probably is expanding some—though likely not as prolifically as its apologists would like everyone to believe.
    The Menace of Radical Preterism

    The absurdities of Preterism exposed:
    In order to see how totally bizarre Preterism is, we simply need to review the events described in the book of Revelation (and the Olivet Discourse) from chapters 6 onwards, and see that none of them has occurred as yet.

    1. There has been no Great Tribulation as described by Christ – a totally unique event, which has never occurred and will never occur again:
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21)

    2. No totally unique cataclysmic cosmic events have taken place as yet, as described by Christ and John
    : Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Mt 24:29)
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.(Rev 6:12-14)

    3. None of the seven trumpet judgments have occurred as yet, which are described in Revelation 8-18:
    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.(Rev 8:1,2)

    4. The Second Coming of Christ has not occurred as yet as described in Revelation 19:
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    5. The battle of Armageddon has not occurred as yet, in which there is a river of blood which is 200 miles long and five feet deep, after the enemies of Christ are supernaturally destroyed (Rev 19, 14):
    And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh... And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    Now we could go right through until the end of the book of Revelation, and discover that none of those things have occurred. If indeed we were living in the New Heavens and the New Earth, none of the heavenly bodies would be in existence, and there would be ABSOLUTELY no sin, no evil, no sickness, no sorrow, no wars, no terrorists, no criminals, no lying politicians, no plagues, and no death upon this earth. Only perfect and everlasting righteousness. Since what we see presently on earth is THE EXACT OPPOSITE, we know that Preterism is absolute rubbish.
     
  2. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Until reading your post, there were only a few things I knew about Preterists. I can now say I am happy to be at peace with my "Dipsy" doctrine of "Dispy" :D
     
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  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    I have heard all the absurdities of both the Preterists and the Futurists, so I just scanned this. But, really, have you ever calculated what it would take to amass that much blood to get a river like that?

    I mean, come on! There are only a total of about 10 pints of blood in the human body, about two thirds of which would stay inside a dead body. And most of that would soak into the ground long before it ever began to pool on top of the dirt.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  4. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Agree, the issue is more than Preturists or Futurists...
    We need to throw in the literalists too.

    I believe it falls between ..but, people want "either / or" yet so many times it is both. Some things have been fulfilled some has not yet.
    Some in Revelation is literal ...but most is spiritual , pictures of things which were being revealed to John.
    I believe when things happen we will say..as in the book of Acts when they said- "Ah, this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; saying
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.....
    "

    But people enjoy arguing over one side or the other...when so often the answer is both.
    But, whatever makes them happy :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  5. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone tell me what the purpose of Prophesy was throughout the Bible? I mean what did God always say He was having a Prophet speak His words to accomplish?
     
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I have simply given you what Scriptures says. It God said it, that settles it.
     
  7. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't. All it means is that each of us may have (and probably did and do) read all sorts of things into the words God inspired men to write that were never intended to be taken the way we take them.
     
  8. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    While we’re at we might as well mention the Absurdity of Futurism

    “The belief that the various prophecies of the Bible, especially those of the Book of Revelation, have been in process of continuous fulfillment throughout the history of the church has been called the Historical method of interpretation (which we believe to be the true method of interpretation).

    This school of thought was taken up by the reformers Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Wesley, and others, as well as by the martyrs Cranmer, Tyndale, Latimer, and Ridley. Inherent in this view was the almost universal identification of the Antichrist as the great papal apostasy, synonymous with the "Man of Sin," the "Beast," and the "Harlot Woman" of Revelation, and the "Little Horn" of Daniel, with a foretold period of exaltation of 1260 years due to expire about the time of the French Revolution.

    This view so dominated studies of prophetic truths for three centuries that it began to be termed "the Protestant" interpretation. However, another view of prophecy, called Futurism, began to take root in the early 19th century and has since gained in acceptance until it now permeates the ranks of most Protestantism. Early proponents included James Todd, William Burgh, Edward Irving, and the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, John Darby.

    Essential to Futurism is the belief that the Antichrist is not a system but a single evil person, satanically inspired, who will become the final world dictator at the end of the age. Establishing himself in Jerusalem for a literal seven years, he oversees the rebuilding of the Temple and the restoration of sacrificing, but at the end of 3-1/2 years-will he demand to be worshiped.

    According to this view, the start of the eventful seven-year period is marked by the first stage of the Second Advent' in which all true believers are "raptured" -- suddenly and miraculously removed from the earth to meet Christ in the air. In the midst of the seven-year period, the Antichrist will initiate intense persecution upon all who refuse to follow him, namely the "tribulation saints" (believers who accept Christ during that time) and the faithful Jews. At the close of the second 3-1/2 year period, when these are almost overwhelmed, Christ will publicly manifest himself in the second stage of his Advent, and he will then destroy the Antichrist and establish his earthly Kingdom.”

    “Upon reflection, it becomes evident that the Futurist view denies the "year-day" principle of biblical interpretation, which has been so universally accepted by that great body of devout expositors from before the Reformation. Building upon the prophecy of the seventy weeks of favor outlined in Dan 9:23-27, it crudely and without scriptural precedent separates the 70th week from the preceding 69 weeks of favor to Israel and thrusts it forward into the uncertain future with no connecting link to the original prophecy.

    With the rejection of Christ by the Jews and the postponement of the kingdom, prophetic time is thought to have ceased to run. As Dr. Ironside, a prominent Futurist commentator expressed it, "The prophetic clock stopped at Calvary. Not one tick has been heard since.’ The remaining eventful seven years, corresponding to the 70th week of the prophecy, must then be placed at the end of the age, with a long, undetermined interval leading up to that point.

    The following sets forth diagrammatically the true time aspects of the seventy weeks of Daniel's prophecy.

    Careful study suggests it is only by wresting the Scriptures that the 70th week could be artificially broken off from the chain of 490 prophetic years leading uninterruptedly from the decree to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem in 455 B.C. to 36 A.D.

    [​IMG]

    The first 69 weeks lead to "Messiah the Prince," the baptism of Christ in the autumn of 29 A.D., marking the start of the fateful 70th week. After 3-1/2 years, "in the midst of the [70th] week," Messiah was cut off in death, in the spring of 33 A.D., a date for the crucifixion now confirmed beyond any reasonable doubt. This leaves a balance of 3-1/2 years to fulfill the full "70 weeks" or 490 years of the prophecy, ending in 36 A.D. when the gospel no longer was confined exclusively to the Jews, but was opened to all the Gentiles as well.

    Nowhere in the prophecy is there the slightest hint or justification for separating the 70th week from the chronological chain and transposing it to an end-of-the-age setting.”

    Thus we conclude that Futurism is likewise absolute rubbish.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
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  9. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    That was an excellent post...
    Polarisation either way on anything...always makes the Enemy very happy.
    Unless it be on God Himself. :)

    Good post.. Thumb.gif
     
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  10. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You have yet to show whether anything from Revelation 6-22 has ACTUALLY been fulfilled. Just because you have a bunch of people going along with your absurdities does not mean anything.

    Even more critical, show us from present day events that there is perfect righteousness on earth RIGHT NOW, and I will show you from every news source that the EXACT OPPOSITE is true.

    Since you misrepresented Daniel's 70th week, let me show you how that prophecy refutes Preterist nonsense. Everlasting righteousness on earth is a long way off. It means actual righteousness -- the absence of sin and evil on earth -- "an end of sins".

    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24)
     
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  11. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    If you're making a list, you'd start with your strongest point as #1. And, this is your best shot at "preterism"? ROTFL You argue the Roman-Jewish war of 66 to 73 AD wasn't the worst tribulation of all time? Yet, you present no worse tribulation, especially by any relevant measure. How absurd can something be if you can't show even one example of it being wrong?

    Dispensationalism is completely absurd, and if I made a list of its absurdities, I'd have a hard time picking one absolute absurdity over another. But, I'll try.

    1. Jesus told the Jews they were of their father the devil. Dispensationalists say the Jews God's chosen people.

    If I made a list of reasons Dispenasalism is satanic, I'd have the same problem, which of all the complete satanism is the most satanic. But, I'll try:

    1. Jesus told the Jews they ere of their father the devil. Dispensationalists say the Jews God's chosen people.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  12. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    Why even waste your time on these criminals

    Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
     
  13. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    You appear to have the wrong idea my friend, when I stated that Futurism was likewise an absurdity I was not implying that the Preterist view was the correct one, I was implying that they both are equally wrong. As I stated in my opening remarks we regard the only true method of interpretation to be the Historic method, that is to say events have been ongoing ever sense the first advent many of which are now in the past such as the great falling away, the rise of the Antichrist, and the setting up of the abomination of desolation.

    These things are clearly evident to those who have the eyes to see, but alas most are blind and or have been deluded by the Adversary and his followers into believing nonsense, the vain babblings of men.

    Even now events are unfolding around us which only those who are awake are aware of, and many still yet to come.

    As for your interpretation of Daniels prophecy we have heard it before, this is nothing new its been propagated by many in the nominal church including the false prophetess Ellen White now for many years.
     
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  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This is about as lame as it gets. So let's set the record straight.

    1. Jesus told THE UNBELIEVING JEWS (HIS ENEMIES) that they were of their father the devil.

    2. Jesus DID NOT rebuke His apostles when they asked about the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. If Christ and God were finished with Israel, this would not have gone unrebuked.
    When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7)

    3. Rather, He told the apostles to preach the Gospel FIRST in Jerusalem, then in Judea, and then in Samaria. If Christ and God were finished with the Jews, this would not have happened.
    But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Acts 1:8)

    4. Paul wrote that when the fulness of the Gentiles was completed, "All Israel shall be saved". "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer" refers to the second coming of Christ and how He will come to Jerusalem at that time and bring redemption and restoration to the Jews.
    ROMANS 11
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Which means that God is certainly not finished with the Jews, nor with Israel. What does Paul mean when he says "but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."?

    He is referring to the election of the twelve tribes of Israel under the Abrahamic Covenant "("the fathers" = the patriarchs = Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), and the fact that they would inherit the land of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates.
    In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed [the twelve tribes] have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites. (Gen 15:18-21)

    The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence. (Gen 24:7)
    And the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac], and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father
    (Gen 26:2,3)
    And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan... And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4)

    Jacob was given the name Israel by God, and he had 12 sons from which came the 12 tribes of Israel. And even though Israel is in unbelief and spiritual blindness today, that will change at the second coming of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  15. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Some cults are aggressive in reaching out to people, like the Mormons who carefully train their members for evangelizing. But, most cults discourage their members from talking about religion with other people, because they want to protect their members from ridicule, or compelling arguments against the cult. You want your fellow dispensationalists to stick their head in a dark hole in the ground so that they're not challenged in their satanic doctrine. People of lies want to do everything possible to shut down dialogue, which is why the left is so devoted to censorship and silencing others. If you can't censor, then try to get your people to not listen.
     
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  16. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    In order to believe that the "last days" do not exist and we're just gonna keep moving forward until we all dissolve into dust is borderline atheism.

    2 Tim 3:1-9 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

    2Pe 3:3-4 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
     
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  17. Heb 13:8

    Heb 13:8 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're just fulfilling prophecy and you don't even realize it. It's called spiritual blindness. 2 Pet 3:3-4.
     
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  18. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    I thought Acts 2:16-17 said "the last days" began 2,000 years ago, and that they were already in them then. How does it work that we are supposedly still waiting for them to begin?
     
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  19. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    1. All Jews are unbelieving Jews, by their definition. You're in denial of a basic, non-controversial fact. Even after your denial of reality, you still stand in contradiction of yourself, as dispies believe that unbelieving Jews are God's chosen people.

    2. Before Jesus left, he was asked if he's going to restore the kingdom to Israel. Jesus replied by impling Pentecost, the founding the church, was the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. After Pentecost, there is nothing in all the NT about restoring Israel. There is nothing about restoring Israel in the book of Revelation. Jesus calls the so-called Jews the synagogue of Satan in Revelation.

    3. The Apostles did preach first and the NT repeatedly declares that the Gospel had already been preached to he whole world. That's another simple fact you're in denial of.

    Your position has been utterly demolished. If you don't see that, you're like Monty Python's black knight who insisted he's not hurt, even after he'd been dismembered.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
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  20. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    It's a sad, ironic joke for a Dispensationalist to call anyone else's eschatology "absurd." The last days started 2000 years ago, so says the Bible. But, Dispensationalists think it took 2000 years for the last days to start, or that the last days started 2000 years ago but just takes a very long time to get rolling.
     
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