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The answer of hell and its origins

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by face2face, Sep 21, 2022 at 4:50 AM.

  1. Prim

    Prim New Member

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    Rome? be likened to Sodom. Rev11:8 ( And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. Where our Lord was crucified) Face2face that could only be referring to Jerusalem it be where our Lord was crucified. How does Rome fit the verse?
     
  2. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    I gave you the words of authority about those who are born again by His Spirit:
    Ans. John.11[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    No one has Eternal existence of any kind whatsoever. Therefore, without the Spirit of Christ, they cannot go on living after their physical death.
    The unsaved who die without the Lord, they shall never come out of the judgment of eternal death. They remain there "as having never lived".
     
  3. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to parse your question out a bit if you don't mind:

    "brandnew"
    God does say that He makes all things new in the new heaven and new earth. We should notice that He says, "I am making all things new," rather than "I am making all new things." So I would dispense with the idea of "brand new" in any sense of never having existed before, mainly because that idea flies in the face of the resurrection at the end of the age, which we know is a reality from several passages of Scripture, the following as clear as any:

    John 5:28-29, where Jesus says, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

    And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised."

    "new youngish bodies or our same old clapped-out ones"
    Well, we do know, Dropship, that not everyone who has died to this point had "old clapped-out bodies," right? I'm pretty sure that in the course of human history, how ever long it has been... :) ... that people have died at all ages from infancy ~ even prenatal infancy ~ on up. So if we are all resurrected at the precise age we died, then not everybody is going to be 75 or 93 years old... :) We know from Scripture that there will not be any more pain, or sickness, or any kind of infirmity, as those are results of the Fall of Adam and Eve, documented in Genesis 3. And from Revelation 21:4, we can clearly see that in the new heaven and new earth, every tear will be wiped away from our eyes, and death will be no more, and there will be no more mourning, or crying, or pain anymore.
    I rather think that when we are resurrected, we will all be in the same state as Adam and Eve were before the Fall, having been constituted by God into fully functioning adults. Now, what age person they were made the equivalent of we have no idea, but they were presumably of child-bearing age. And I think it's safe to say that age will have no relevance in eternity. :) But I would also say that we know, from Scripture, that we will be resurrected like Jesus, for Paul says:

    "...if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." (Romans 6:5)

    After Jesus's resurrection, Dropship, He was seen ~ and presumably touched, at least by Thomas, who had to see and touch Jesus's wounds before he would believe:

    "Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, 'We have seen the Lord.' But he said to them, 'Unless I see in His hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into His side, I will never believe.' Eight days later, His disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.' Then He said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here, and see My hands; and put out your hand, and place it in My side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen Me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" (John 20:24-29)

    And Jesus ate and drank in the presence of His disciples to prove to them He was not some kind of apparition or ghost:

    "As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, 'Peace to you!' But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, 'Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Touch Me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.' And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, He said to them, 'Have you anything here to eat?' They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate before them." (Luke 24:36-43)

    "God raised Him on the third day and made Him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead." (Acts 10:40-41).

    In view of all this, Dropship, I think there can be absolutely no doubt that we will have physical bodies. We will be wholly spiritual ~ of the Spirit, of God ~ but very much physical, and at that point, immortal and sinless, just as Jesus is.
    I loved Star Trek: Next Generation, Dropship, but... ugh. Neither Gene Roddenberry nor Rick Berman. :) You misunderstand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15, Dropship. As I pointed out before, in verses 12 and 13 of that same chapter, Paul proclaims the truth of the resurrection, and he is not somehow here, in verses 42 through 50, contradicting himself and saying that there will be no physical resurrection and that we will all be spirits... or apparitions or ghosts.

    And even in this life, Dropship, you and I, as Christians, though we were once dead in our sin, have been made alive by God ~ we have been born again of the Spirit and thus have been given spiritual life. By saying "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," Dropship, Paul is saying that no one who is of man only and thus still dead in his/her sin can inherit the kingdom of God. But since we have been born again ~ and imputed the righteousness of Christ ~ we can, and certainly will, inherit the kingdom of God. We will then be purely spiritual in our being ~ again, wholly of God, like Jesus (but not Him, of course; only Jesus is Jesus) and also very physical in person. So... we will not be ghosts in the age to come. :) There will be a life to be lived, and live it we will... for eternity.

    Grace and peace to you.
     
  4. PinSeeker

    PinSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Well not yet, no, because eternity, the age to come, has not yet begun... :) But we will all be resurrected at the end of the present age, some to eternal life and others to judgment, and are all destined to existence in eternity, the question being where we will dwell in that age ~ physically, and for believers, spiritually (see above).

    Agreed; even as many of them live and breath and walk among us even now, in this life, they are spiritually dead (as we all were before we were born again of the Spirit). They are destined, as we all are, for the first death, as it is appointed for all men and women to die once (Hebrews 9:27), and ~ at least right now ~ are headed also toward the resurrection to judgment and the subsequent second death. Yes, they remain there for eternity as having never lived, which is undeniably a physical, conscious existence, and is just an absolutely terrifying thought.

    Grace and peace to you, Earburner.
     
  5. RLT63

    RLT63 Well-Known Member

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    I would start in the New Testament with Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus.
    The Rich Man and Lazarus
    Luk 16:19


    There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    Luk 16:20

    And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    Luk 16:21

    And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    Luk 16:22

    And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    Luk 16:23

    And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    Luk 16:24


    And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    Luk 16:25

    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    Luk 16:26

    And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    Luk 16:27


    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    Luk 16:28

    For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    Luk 16:29

    Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    Luk 16:30

    And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    Luk 16:31

    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    What are we to make of this story?
     
  6. Jack

    Jack Active Member

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    Satan sends his messengers to convince the gullible that there is no eternal Hell fire. He wants our company "forever and ever".

    Belief in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly warned us about is not required for residency therein.
     
  7. Blue Dragonfly's

    Blue Dragonfly's Well-Known Member

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    That is so true. And honest.

    Christianity is grounded in Judaism being Yeshuah is their Messiah. And when the eternal fire and brimstone Hell the RC church manufactured isn't actually in Jewish teachings, then the Satanic conjuration of eternal fire and surrering for finite errors need be exposed as just that;Satanic.

    Satan want nothing more than to lead people to believe God is as evil as he's purported to be.

    Satan punishes bad people.
    That makes him a bad guy God appointed to that task.
    Um, yeah.
     
  8. face2face

    face2face Well-Known Member

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    It's a common mistake to believe this is speaking about Jerusalem when is fact it speaking to the power that permitted his death and later became the influence that corrupted Christianity and is doing to this very day. Christ was crucified by order of Rome's representative! Keep in mind the Revelation is now following the development of apostate Christianity until its final destruction firstly when Christ returns and then completely at the end of his reign.
     
  9. face2face

    face2face Well-Known Member

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    I think its time to deal with this beautifully crafted parable. I would say it's one of the most clever use of a false teaching in all Scripture. When I have time today I will step you through it....clearly you can see many issues if one believed it was literal.
    F2F
     
  10. face2face

    face2face Well-Known Member

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    Before looking at the meaning of the parable which had immediate applications to those listening, we need to see "what it is not", first.

    1. No mention of disembodied ethereal spirits or immortal souls - it's talking about bodies! Eyes, bosom (Luke 16:23) tip of finger and tongue (Luke 16:24)

    2. If souls are ethereal with bodies being left in the grave how could Lazarus (if he is a soul) be carried by Angels? Luke 16:22

    3. Now this is where it gets crazy, if one tries to make this a literal event, for how can there be a gulf between these two domains where each can see the other? Abraham and the rich man looking at each other and conversing as per Luke 16:26.

    The more we probe the more it becomes obvious Jesus has cleverly spun this parable basing it on a false doctrine the Pharisees believed at the time.

    To believe this is literal you need to overcome the idea that a literal place of everlasting fire and Heaven can communicate with each other lol!

    Good souls enjoying bliss while bad souls are looked upon as burning - you would need to be as ignorant of God's truth concerning the dead as the Pharisees were in this story! For it was written as a judgement against them!

    Well, we can easily prove what Jesus is doing here and how he is using their beloved Abraham in this cleverly designed parable because Abraham we are told is dead and buried and yet to receive what is promised. Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:13, Hebrews 11:39, Hebrews 11:40).

    I've done a lot of work in this section of Scripture and have maybe another 20 - 30 points to consider. If you want me to continue I can.

    You understand the purpose of the parable, I'm sure?

    F2F
     
  11. Jack

    Jack Active Member

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    You have ZERO proof that it's a parable! No parable uses literal Biblical people. Please stop with this lie!
     
  12. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for a civil discussion . Okay ,let's continue ,it started with Eve , actually no , it actually started at the rebellion ,however that's a different subject even though they're tied together. With Eve Cain and Abel were twins by different fathers ,that's why Cain has his own genealogy . Gonna zoom to Noah (Gen 6)

    To start , yes it was millions of people on earth at this time ,considering as you said how long they lived .

    Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

    At this point in the chapter wickedness was great in the world , however the angels were only concerned with the seedline of the woman, Eve

    Genesis 6:9 "These are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Hoah walked with God."

    The term, "and perfect in his generations," is referring only to his ancestry. Does it mean there was no sin in them? No; for we know sin came into this world through his ancestors, because the Bible clearly tells us of the sins of Adam and eve in Genesis 3, and Enos in Generation 4:26. Both Noah, and his wife came from families which are recorded in the scriptures, as not mixing with the fallen angels. Neither of them had a drop of angels blood in their veins.

    The word "generations" in the Hebrew text is # 8735 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, and comes from the Hebrew prime; "Toledoth", and means family tree, or history. When we take "family history called "perfect", in the Hebrew text it is called "tamin", that family is "without blemish as to breed, or pedigree".

    This verse does not speak of Noah's moral perfection, but tells us that he and his family had preserved their pedigree, and kept it pure, inspire of the prevailing corruption brought about by the fallen angels, [their children were called "Nephilim"].

    Lets look at Gen 6 from the companion Bible


    This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of


    the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished,

    God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

    As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through

    ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4,

    "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the

    first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of

    Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham

    entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in

    the land."

    In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere

    with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in

    "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

    This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and

    important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his

    own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view.

    Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of

    which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of

    the great Enemy stand out prominently :--

    l The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.

    l The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5.


    Heb. 11:23.

    l The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.

    l After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for


    assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by

    Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his

    brothers (2Chron. 21:4).

    l The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).

    l When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10).


    the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of

    Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).

    l Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of


    Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was

    appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).

    l In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole


    nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).

    l Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact


    that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary

    stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her.

    But God intervened : "Fear not".

    l Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).

    l At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.

    l At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down


    and destroy Him.

    l The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.

    l At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set;


    and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like

    another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the

    house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden

    there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to

    witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).

    The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and

    was directed against the whole human race.

    l When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.

    l When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.

    l And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst


    upon Him.
     
  13. Jack

    Jack Active Member

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    Matthew 18
    8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

    Amen Jesus!
     
  14. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Only those alive at the 2nd coming will be change those before already have. Oh and spirits do have mass
     
  15. face2face

    face2face Well-Known Member

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    No, the dead raised first then the living gathered....you know the verses!
     
  16. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Simple question ,is Christ still in the grave , thinking you know the answer is no , so why would you think those who die are still in some hole in the ground ?
     
  17. Jack

    Jack Active Member

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    One Kingdom Hall victim actually said that Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days.
     
  18. Prim

    Prim New Member

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    Face2face honest mistakes and misunderstandings are ever before us as we continue to live and search for truth. But am I mistaken with revelations 11:8. Sometimes things be allegorical, poetic and parables within our wonderful book the bible. But also much of the bible is literal. I see no reason why a literal interpretation need not be followed here. The passage says what it says revelations 11: 8 ( and their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, which is also where our Lord was crucified. ) it should be noted that the great city is no longer called the Holy city and for good reason because it has now become great in evil being compared as sexually decadent as Sodom and corrupt with enslavement as Egypt once was. that is what is being expressed. With literal emphasis clearly added on the locality ( which is also where our Lord was crucified ) which being Jerusalem and certainly not Rome. Whilst Rome did reluctantly give the final authority of Christ’s crucifixion it was at the continued behest of the Jewish authorities. And it was still physical Jerusalem that this passage is referring to. Oh Israel Oh Israel thou that killest the prophets does come to mind just as with the 2 future witnesses who shall met their fate in Jerusalem too. Face2face we simply disagree to disagree I guess.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022 at 3:11 AM
    Earburner likes this.
  19. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    I think that right there in the beginning, you have derailed yourself by your imagination forming an assumption.
    Eve had twins but of different fathers?
    That is a rarity of happening once in 400 sets of twins. And the fathers were who? Adam and a fallen angel?? Since when can angels have sex? They are not equipped to do so. They cannot procreate their own order of creation, never mind anyone else!
    However, they surely can and often do spiritually possess people. I am scripturally assured that the latter is the case for Cain.
    Miracle twins have different fathers and the dads couldn't be happier about it
     
  20. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    What's the assumption , we know they both presented to God their offerings at the same time correct as for when can angels have sex do study Gen 6.

    Really don't care about the miracle dads , fact remains it can happen , and it did .

    Also how do you suppose those men wanted to have sex with the angels up in Sodom , you need to also do a study of Angels
     
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