The Antichrist: The Deep, Dark Secret

[Davy]

The identity of 'The Antichrist' is a deep Biblical secret. God's Word actually reveals the coming Antichrist our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about will be Satan himself, on earth, in plain sight. And by that I do not... mean Satan simply possessing some flesh man to perform his working on earth. I mean Satan, Lucifer, the devil, the dragon, himself, de facto, in person, on earth revealed in our material dimension with the image of man. It is this difference in understanding who the real Antichrist will be that will determine how many brethren will not be deceived when he comes.

Did you not know that God created the angels with His outward likeness and appearance also? This is shown at the end of Genesis 1. Later Bible examples are from flesh people seeing angels with the image of man, like in Lot's day (Genesis 19). This revealing from God's Word must be settled in the believer's mind and understood, otherwise the believer simply will not understand our existence, nor God's existence and His Working involving this earth and its inhabitants compared to the Heavenly and the angels. It is very easy to get all wrapped up in this flesh world and life and be terribly deceived about Lucifer's overthrow of old and not realizing it being one of the main reasons for God establishing His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ and the world to come when the devil will be destroyed. It is likewise a mark of deception by not understanding the two dimensions of existence God's Word reveals, i.e. the earthly vs. the heavenly.


Our Lord Jesus Warned Us Satan is Coming to Earth:

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus said that to His disciples just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. It is traditionally interpreted to mean that at our Lord Jesus' death on the cross cast Satan out of this world. Our Lord Jesus' death on the cross did fulfill the first phrase, "Now is the judgment of this world:", meaning the judgment and sentence of the devil to perish was then put into official effect at Jesus' death on the cross. But we know through our Lord Jesus' Revelation that it's not yet time today for the devil to be destroyed. So this judgment upon the world is pending until Christ's return, when it will begin, as per Apostle Paul, et al (1 Cor.15:23-28).

How did our Lord Jesus then mean that, "now shall the prince of this world be cast out"? We know per Revelation 20 it's not until Christ's return and future reign with His elect when the devil is cast into chains in his pit prison for the thousand years. So the devil is still roaming the earth today, seeking whom he may devour according to Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:8). And just where was the devil when Jesus spoke that to His disciples? Where was he to be "cast out" to? Our Lord Jesus gave us more about that in John 14...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV

There our Lord Jesus was more direct about Lucifer coming to our world. And He was actually very revealing about it to a deeper level in the John 12:31 example of his being "cast out". In Revelation 12 is where our Lord Jesus through John revealed the prince of this world coming de facto to our dimension on the earth:

Rev 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus laid all the cards on the table about the coming Antichrist with that revealing through Apostle John. That "dragon" is simply another title for Satan himself. That is the "cast out" our Lord Jesus was pointing to in the John 12:31 verse. How so?

The "dragon", i.e. Satan, is a Heavenly being, a covering cherub. He has the image of man because that also is the image likeness God created the angels with. His home is in the Heavenly dimension, even though the abode of hell is in a place of separation in the Heavenly, away from God and His angels (see Luke 16). If you don't understand that, then you won't understand what this 'casting out' means. It means the devil is to be cast out of the Heavenly dimension into... OUR earthly dimension!

Some confuse that Revelation 12 casting out example with Satan's original rebellion of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. It's impossible to apply that time of old here with this casting out, simply because the power of Christ in the Heavenly takes place when Satan is cast out of the Heavenly here, and also with the pointer to the overcomers in Christ Jesus, which links to the 5th Seal martyrs of Revelation 6 for the end.

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Those events of Rev.13:5-7 were first given in the Book of Daniel about the coming false one (see Daniel 7).

Revelation 13:11 links that "dragon" with the one who is to come performing great signs and wonders and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men:

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

That is about the coming Antichrist. That is the "dragon" of Rev.13:4 that will come and cause the whole world to worship him as God, excepting Christ's elect. It is the pseudo-Christ which our Lord Jesus forewarned for the end in Matthew 24:23-26, where He said for those in Jerusalem, when someone comes up to you and says, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to believe it not! It is the one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2 that is to come and sit in a built temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, working lying wonders and great signs to deceive with.

Those events the Antichrist that is to come will do will be a mimic of his first rebellion against God in the time of old. In Isaiah 14, God gave a proverb about Lucifer wanting to be The GOD, even bragging how he will sit over the congregation in the north (i.e., in God's Seat). Our Heavenly Father rebuked Lucifer there using his own words of how he said he will exalt himself as God. That is how Lucifer originally rebelled against God in the time of old, prior to this present world, and prior to Adam and Eve's day. God ended Lucifer's rebellion of old, and then our Heavenly Father brought this present world to offer His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ's death on the cross.

For one last time, in order to do much pruning for this world, God is going to allow Lucifer to come to our world and play God, allowing those who do not listen to God and His Son to be deceived. That is what Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2 is about. That day of deception is growing very close today. Being raptured so as to not be subject to the "strong delusion" is not Biblical; it instead is an idea grown by Lucifer's host on earth today in order to prepare the deceived to 'fly away' to Lucifer when he appears on earth (see Matt.24:28 and last verses of Luke 17 as to where the deceived who are "taken" will be gathered).

 

[Windmillcharge]

All the more reason for 'holy' living by Christians and for 'holy' conversations.

We are intended to be Salt and Light in a decaying and dark world.

Are We?
Are we sheep or goats?

 

[Enoch111]

And by that I do not... mean Satan simply possessing some flesh man to perform his working on earth.

Unfortunately, your idea is not backed up by Scripture. The Antichrist is distinct from Satan, who is distinct from the False Prophet. This is called *the Unholy Trinity*, which will ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire):

And [1] the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [2] the beast [the Antichrist] and [3] the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

However, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are energized and empowered by Satan, and both the Dragon (Satan) and the Beast are worshiped at the same time:And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (Rev 13:4)

We need to follow what is actually stated in the Bible. See 2 Thessalonians for further insight.

 

[Davy]

Unfortunately, your idea is not backed up by Scripture. The Antichrist is distinct from Satan, who is distinct from the False Prophet. This is called *the Unholy Trinity*, which will ultimately be cast into the Lake of Fire):

And [1] the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [2] the beast [the Antichrist] and [3] the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10)

However, the Antichrist and the False Prophet are energized and empowered by Satan, and both the Dragon (Satan) and the Beast are worshiped at the same time:And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? (Rev 13:4)

We need to follow what is actually stated in the Bible. See 2 Thessalonians for further insight.

I did backup what I said according to God's Holy Writ. It's traditions of men that get away from the simple Biblical pointers to Lucifer coming as the Antichrist. Even that "Unholy Trinity" idea is simply an idea suggested by men, and not Biblically written (even though it may make sense.)

The problem with treating the false prophet of Rev.16 & 19 as a separate entity from the Antichrist is how the false prophet is destroyed in the "lake of fire" PRIOR... to God's GWT Judgment.

NO FLESH BORN MAN is destroyed in the "lake of fire" until God's GWT Judgment at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That shows the false prophet will not be a flesh born man. Likewise with the 'beast' that goes into the "lake of fire" at Jesus' 2nd coming, if that is about the "another beast", then that's about the "dragon", since the Rev.13:11 "another beast" subject is pointing to the "dragon" and Antichrist, which the "dragon" is just another title for Satan per Rev.12:9.

And another thing, there is NO mention of the false prophet in the Rev.13 chapter. That idea is inserted by men's doctrines. The false one in Rev.13:11 called the "another beast" is a 2nd beast, and his working is linked with the psuedo-Christ which our Lord Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse, and with the "man of sin" which Apostle Paul warned us of in 2 Thessalonians 2 that is to come and sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, and exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshiped. The false prophet is nowhere shown doing that working.


Men's traditions insert the "false prophet" of Rev.16 into the "dragon" role of Rev.13:11 because of this:

Rev 16:13-14
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
KJV

3 unclean spirits out of the "dragon", and out of the "false prophet", and "beast" would mean NINE unclean spirits if that false prophet is a separate entity from Satan. The dragon and false prophet are simply roles the Antichrist will play. Because the false prophet is shown here "working miracles" also, men insert the false prophet into the Rev.13:11 Scripture when it is not written there. By actually doing that though, they are showing how the "false prophet" is just a 'role' the "another beast" will play, as it is that "another beast" there in Rev.13 that actually will do the working of great signs, wonders, and miracles.

The true interpretation is how Satan, i.e., the "dragon", will function in 3 roles when he comes to earth; 1) as the pseudo-Messiah in Jerusalem involving the placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in a new temple, 2) as the false prophet, telling lies to cause the "strong delusion" and blaspheme God, 3) and as a 2nd beast, the beast king role of the Book of Daniel, even as a type of the king of Babylon. The symbol of a 'beast' is also used for his kingdom, as shown in the Rev.13:1-2 verses. That is the 'beast' of Rev.19 that goes into the "lake of fire" along with the false prophet. Both of those roles are destroyed at Christ's 2nd coming, but Satan, the "dragon", is not yet cast into that fire at Jesus' return.

 

[CoreIssue]

They are three distinct persons. Two are possessed humans and Satan enters the statue of the AC, which is called the dragon.
Revelation 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

 

[Davy]

They are three distinct persons. Two are David possessed humans and Satan enters the statue of the AC, which is called the dragon.
Revelation 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

"David possessed humans"??? The statue is called the dragon??? You don't read Scripture very well. There's no such thing as "David possessed humans". That's sounds like a doctrine of occultists!


The "dragon" per Rev.12:9 is simply another title for Satan himself...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Even the Rev.17 Scripture reveals Satan as the one who will be the beast king for the end of this world.

 

[CoreIssue]

"David possessed humans"??? The statue is called the dragon??? You don't read Scripture very well. There's no such thing as "David possessed humans". That's sounds like a doctrine of occultists!


The "dragon" per Rev.12:9 is simply another title for Satan himself...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Even the Rev.17 Scripture reveals Satan as the one who will be the beast king for the end of this world.

I deleted David on the original post. Do not know how that got there.

And try again on the Dragon. You're saying Satan was demon possessed in Revelation 16? You conveniently didn't address that verse because you can't make it fit what you're claiming.

 

[Davy]

I deleted David on the original post. Do not know how that got there.

And try again on the Dragon. You're saying Satan was demon possessed in Revelation 16? You conveniently didn't address that verse because you can't make it fit what you're claiming.

You bear false witness, and are not to be trusted.

 

[CoreIssue]

You bear false witness, and are not to be trusted.

Yammering about?

Because of a hand problem I use speech to text which sometimes screws up.

I repeat, I have no idea why that word appeared there.

 

[Davy]

All the more reason for 'holy' living by Christians and for 'holy' conversations.

We are intended to be Salt and Light in a decaying and dark world.

Are We?
Are we sheep or goats?

Honestly, why would our Lord give us the signs of the end to be watching if all He wanted us to do was practice holy living? He commanded His Church to 'watch' for the last days. His Apostles admonished the same. So to try and replace that with just concentrating on holy living is to go against His commandment to watch.

Once the believer understands that difference, then why would He warn us to watch?

It's because He is going to allow the coming of a pseudo-Messiah to this earth for the very end of this world that will work great signs and wonders on earth that if possible, would even deceive His very elect (Matthew 24:23-26; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11-17). He is going to do pruning with that event, and if you aren't watching the signs to know how and when that happens, you might be deceived along with those who will be pruned. That's why He warned us beforehand.

So it's like the story about the flood with one trapped on top of his roof top, and a boat comes by to rescue him and he says no thanks, and claims he has faith that The Lord will save him. Then a helicopter comes by and drops down a ladder, and he tells them no thanks, he has faith that The Lord will save him. And then he wastes away there on the roof top and dies. In heaven, he asks The Lord why He didn't save him? And The Lord says, "well, I sent you a boat, and then a helicopter!"

 

[farouk]

The identity of 'The Antichrist' is a deep Biblical secret. God's Word actually reveals the coming Antichrist our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about will be Satan himself, on earth, in plain sight. And by that I do not... mean Satan simply possessing some flesh man to perform his working on earth. I mean Satan, Lucifer, the devil, the dragon, himself, de facto, in person, on earth revealed in our material dimension with the image of man. It is this difference in understanding who the real Antichrist will be that will determine how many brethren will not be deceived when he comes.

Did you not know that God created the angels with His outward likeness and appearance also? This is shown at the end of Genesis 1. Later Bible examples are from flesh people seeing angels with the image of man, like in Lot's day (Genesis 19). This revealing from God's Word must be settled in the believer's mind and understood, otherwise the believer simply will not understand our existence, nor God's existence and His Working involving this earth and its inhabitants compared to the Heavenly and the angels. It is very easy to get all wrapped up in this flesh world and life and be terribly deceived about Lucifer's overthrow of old and not realizing it being one of the main reasons for God establishing His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ and the world to come when the devil will be destroyed. It is likewise a mark of deception by not understanding the two dimensions of existence God's Word reveals, i.e. the earthly vs. the heavenly.


Our Lord Jesus Warned Us Satan is Coming to Earth:

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus said that to His disciples just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified. It is traditionally interpreted to mean that at our Lord Jesus' death on the cross cast Satan out of this world. Our Lord Jesus' death on the cross did fulfill the first phrase, "Now is the judgment of this world:", meaning the judgment and sentence of the devil to perish was then put into official effect at Jesus' death on the cross. But we know through our Lord Jesus' Revelation that it's not yet time today for the devil to be destroyed. So this judgment upon the world is pending until Christ's return, when it will begin, as per Apostle Paul, et al (1 Cor.15:23-28).

How did our Lord Jesus then mean that, "now shall the prince of this world be cast out"? We know per Revelation 20 it's not until Christ's return and future reign with His elect when the devil is cast into chains in his pit prison for the thousand years. So the devil is still roaming the earth today, seeking whom he may devour according to Apostle Peter (1 Peter 5:8). And just where was the devil when Jesus spoke that to His disciples? Where was he to be "cast out" to? Our Lord Jesus gave us more about that in John 14...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV

There our Lord Jesus was more direct about Lucifer coming to our world. And He was actually very revealing about it to a deeper level in the John 12:31 example of his being "cast out". In Revelation 12 is where our Lord Jesus through John revealed the prince of this world coming de facto to our dimension on the earth:

Rev 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV

Our Lord Jesus laid all the cards on the table about the coming Antichrist with that revealing through Apostle John. That "dragon" is simply another title for Satan himself. That is the "cast out" our Lord Jesus was pointing to in the John 12:31 verse. How so?

The "dragon", i.e. Satan, is a Heavenly being, a covering cherub. He has the image of man because that also is the image likeness God created the angels with. His home is in the Heavenly dimension, even though the abode of hell is in a place of separation in the Heavenly, away from God and His angels (see Luke 16). If you don't understand that, then you won't understand what this 'casting out' means. It means the devil is to be cast out of the Heavenly dimension into... OUR earthly dimension!

Some confuse that Revelation 12 casting out example with Satan's original rebellion of old, when he drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him. It's impossible to apply that time of old here with this casting out, simply because the power of Christ in the Heavenly takes place when Satan is cast out of the Heavenly here, and also with the pointer to the overcomers in Christ Jesus, which links to the 5th Seal martyrs of Revelation 6 for the end.

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

Those events of Rev.13:5-7 were first given in the Book of Daniel about the coming false one (see Daniel 7).

Revelation 13:11 links that "dragon" with the one who is to come performing great signs and wonders and miracles, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men:

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV

That is about the coming Antichrist. That is the "dragon" of Rev.13:4 that will come and cause the whole world to worship him as God, excepting Christ's elect. It is the pseudo-Christ which our Lord Jesus forewarned for the end in Matthew 24:23-26, where He said for those in Jerusalem, when someone comes up to you and says, "Lo, Christ is here, or there", to believe it not! It is the one Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2 that is to come and sit in a built temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, working lying wonders and great signs to deceive with.

Those events the Antichrist that is to come will do will be a mimic of his first rebellion against God in the time of old. In Isaiah 14, God gave a proverb about Lucifer wanting to be The GOD, even bragging how he will sit over the congregation in the north (i.e., in God's Seat). Our Heavenly Father rebuked Lucifer there using his own words of how he said he will exalt himself as God. That is how Lucifer originally rebelled against God in the time of old, prior to this present world, and prior to Adam and Eve's day. God ended Lucifer's rebellion of old, and then our Heavenly Father brought this present world to offer His Plan of Salvation through His Son Jesus Christ's death on the cross.

For one last time, in order to do much pruning for this world, God is going to allow Lucifer to come to our world and play God, allowing those who do not listen to God and His Son to be deceived. That is what Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2 is about. That day of deception is growing very close today. Being raptured so as to not be subject to the "strong delusion" is not Biblical; it instead is an idea grown by Lucifer's host on earth today in order to prepare the deceived to 'fly away' to Lucifer when he appears on earth (see Matt.24:28 and last verses of Luke 17 as to where the deceived who are "taken" will be gathered).

1 Thess. 4 is clear that the church is involved in the rapture.

Tribulation as a principle now before the rapture (John 16) and tribulation on earth are distinct.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Honestly, why would our Lord give us the signs of the end to be watching if all He wanted us to do was practice holy living? He commanded His Church to 'watch' for the last days. His Apostles admonished the same. So to try and replace that with just concentrating on holy living is to go against His commandment to watch.

Once the believer understands that difference, then why would He warn us to watch?

It's because He is going to allow the coming of a pseudo-Messiah to this earth for the very end of this world that will work great signs and wonders on earth that if possible, would even deceive His very elect (Matthew 24:23-26; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:11-17). He is going to do pruning with that event, and if you aren't watching the signs to know how and when that happens, you might be deceived along with those who will be pruned. That's why He warned us beforehand.

So it's like the story about the flood with one trapped on top of his roof top, and a boat comes by to rescue him and he says no thanks, and claims he has faith that The Lord will save him. Then a helicopter comes by and drops down a ladder, and he tells them no thanks, he has faith that The Lord will save him. And then he wastes away there on the roof top and dies. In heaven, he asks The Lord why He didn't save him? And The Lord says, "well, I sent you a boat, and then a helicopter!"

So rather than living for Jesus and seeking to tell others about Jesus you think we should be examining the news and sky and cows being born to be ready for Jesus's return.
That how we live is not important and we can igfnore Jesus's comment,'If you Love me you will obey my commands.'

 

[Davy]

1 Thess. 4 is clear that the church is involved in the rapture.

Tribulation as a principle now before the rapture (John 16) and tribulation on earth are distinct.

If you mean per 1 Thess.4 the Church is "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds with His asleep saints that are first resurrected, then yes, for that is exactly what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 4.

But if you imply that the Church is raptured prior to the last day of this world, which the last day is when the resurrection happens with Jesus' 2nd coming, then no, I do not agree with what you say, and nor does Paul in 1 Thess.4.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you mean per 1 Thess.4 the Church is "caught up" to Jesus coming in the clouds with His asleep saints that are first resurrected, then yes, for that is exactly what Apostle Paul taught there in 1 Thessalonians 4.

But if you imply that the Church is raptured prior to the last day of this world, which the last day is when the resurrection happens with Jesus' 2nd coming, then no, I do not agree with what you say, and nor does Paul in 1 Thess.4.

The physical bodies of the saints who died are asleep, using biblical context. Their spirits are fully awake and in heaven and will descend with Jesus to reenter their resurrected bodies and then ascend to Christ in the clouds.

 

[Davy]

The physical bodies of the saints who died are asleep, using biblical context. Their spirits are fully awake and in heaven and will descend with Jesus to reenter their resurrected bodies and then ascend to Christ in the clouds.

No rubber bouncing balls written of in God's Word.

The asleep saints are resurrected on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming, which is the last day of this present world; they return with Him in the clouds, and at that same time the saints still alive on earth who remain will be caught up to Him at His descent to this earth. They all go to Jerusalem, where Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives as written in Zechariah 14. That right then, begins His thousand years reign with His elect on earth, from earthly Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

So rather than living for Jesus and seeking to tell others about Jesus you think we should be examining the news and sky and cows being born to be ready for Jesus's return.
That how we live is not important and we can igfnore Jesus's comment,'If you Love me you will obey my commands.'

Don't try and put your words into my mouth. You should learn to actually quote what others say, and not twist what they say.

You well know that I never said anything against the idea of living a holy life unto our Lord Jesus Christ. But you inferred a disgust against it just to get attention, as if you thought it would be a way to win an argument, but it actually shows a little mind.

 

[Windmillcharge]

So to try and replace that with just concentrating on holy living is to go against His commandment to watch.

That is what I responded to, on the basis that someone who is seeking to be obedient in their daily living is serving God, even if the constant cries of 'wolf!' means they do not pay much attention to the the second coming of our Lord.

 

[brakelite]

The identity of 'The Antichrist' is a deep Biblical secret.

The worst most vile enemy known in the history of mankind...the most deceptive and eternal-life threatening entity the church has...and God is keeping it secret?
No, in fact it is the exact opposite. God has given more clues, more information, more uniquely applied criteria that can pertain only to this one single entity, than any in scripture other than Christ Himself. It is no secret. It is only hidden from those who do not have the faith to believe what they are reading, or misapply what they read because of preconceived ideas and/or opinions and theology. But if simply and faithfully accepted as the very word of God, the criteria that scripture defines can be readily and confidently applied to competently and accurately identify the Antichrist.
God so loves the world, that there is not one person, living or dead, that Jesus did not die for. The apostle Paul says that if God was so willing to give His Son, He along with His Son willingly offers everything else also (Romans 8:32). This without any doubt includes all the advice, counsel, and directions in order that we may find our way to Him (Jeremiah 6:16; Matt.7:14; Hebrews 1:1-3;12:1,2; 1 Peter 2:2:21-25) along with all the warnings of the pitfalls, dangers, and wrong paths that may lead us astray. God has clearly described the full gospel, demonstrated His love, proclaimed His grace and mercy, and He has defined sin, exposed heresy, exposed our enemies, and repeatedly warned us of Satan’s many varied and subtle deceptions that would lead us into a false hope (John 10:10; Isaiah 45:19; Amos 3:7; Isaiah 8:19,20). When time comes that we must face our Maker, we will have no excuse.

As we look to the future, prophecy informs us that we are nearing a time of great crisis of such magnitude that not since Noah has there been a time of such import and significance. And in fact in Revelation 14:9-11 is the most dire warning in all scripture, and that time is immediately before us. So I ask. Is this warning given in love? Yes. If such a dire warning is given, do you think God would also offer a sure identification of the Antichrist that we may not be deceived? Again, the answer is yes. And would not that same love also reveal not just who the beast is, but how we may avoid its mark? Remember, “He that spared not His own Son, but offered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?”

Let us get real here.

Why is it that many in the church then move away from that revelation regarding the Antichrist, and attach to him their own theories and opinions when no such things are necessary? God has not enshrouded His warnings in a mystery that cannot be understood. The church has become full of prognosticators and clairvoyants, finding simple Biblical exegesis insufficient so people devise imaginative future enemies about to persecute the church, attack Israel, decimate all that they believe is good and sound, all the while ignoring and setting aside God’s word that warns them that the enemy is not without the church, but within. In attempting to tell everyone that the enemy is still future and is coming from the horizon afar off, they do the devil’s own work and deceive people into ignoring the real enemy who is standing beside them whose doctrines and dogmas they have all been partaking of. In this they are ignoring the very word of God that says “Come out of her my people”. God says come out, they say he hasn’t arrived yet. And not only so, but because they believe the coming enemy is an individual, how can they come out anyway from an individual? God’s warning makes no sense to such a one. They fail to perceive that the Antichrist is not an individual, but a succession of individuals who preside over the one system. It is that system that is so very well described in scripture, and it is that system that God calls His people to leave. It is the system that God warns of, it is the system that is the enemy, it is the system that is the counterfeit to the true Christ, it is the system that has replaced Christ by effectually placing itself into the minds and hearts of its adherents, and it is that system that so many are even now fully card-carrying-life members of but are totally unaware and oblivious of the danger! Thus it is the system that meets all the requisite criteria needed in identifying the true Antichrist...one who replaces Christ.

 

[brakelite]

For any who doubt that the concept of Antichrist means specifically "replace" and/or "instead of", in other words a counterfeit, follow along with me here....note well...
Dragon/Satan.
His place in heaven (Rev 12:3, 7, 8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2; 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:
God the Father
Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4, 5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)

The Land-beast or false prophet.
Called the false prophet because he deceives people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:
The Holy Spirit
Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like, in fact is the very Spirit of Christ. (Jn 14:26; 16:14; Romans 8:9,10)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13, 14)
Directs our attention to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ, His character. (Romans8:11,29; 2 Peter 1:3,4.)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3, 4.)

The sea-beast or antichrist.
Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:
Jesus Christ
Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)

 

[Davy]

The worst most vile enemy known in the history of mankind...the most deceptive and eternal-life threatening entity the church has...and God is keeping it secret?
No, in fact it is the exact opposite. God has given more clues, more information, more uniquely applied criteria that can pertain only to this one single entity, than any in scripture other than Christ Himself. It is no secret. It is only hidden from those who do not have the faith to believe what they are reading, or misapply what they read because of preconceived ideas and/or opinions and theology. But if simply and faithfully accepted as the very word of God, the criteria that scripture defines can be readily and confidently applied to competently and accurately identify the Antichrist.
....

It is a secret, for many have been blinded as to the real identity of the Biblical Antichrist. It is Satan himself, and God's Word does reveal it to those not blinded.

Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV