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The arguments & proof requests for god are incoherent contradictions

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by shnarkle, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No

    2 vote(s)
    66.7%
  3. Evidence should be provided to those who ask

    0 vote(s)
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  4. Just because it's contradictory, doesn't mean it isn't possible

    0 vote(s)
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  5. People who ask for proof of contradictions are clueless

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  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    The arguments against, and requests for proof by atheists, skeptics, etc. for the existence of the Christian god are incoherent and contradictory.

    As some have admitted already, some of the core tenets of Christianity are that "God" is omniscient, omnipotent, transcendent as well as the origin or source of all that exists. These terms all point to one conclusion which is that the term "God" is synonymous with these terms, and therefore cannot exist(not the term "God", but what the term represents or refers to). There is no referent for the term, and there never can be.

    Setting aside the notion that Christians don't seem to be aware of this fact, one still must wonder why anyone who takes pride in their critical thinking skills hasn't noticed this yet. Even more bewildering, is why would anyone ask for proof of what cannot logically exist in the first place?

    Omniscience literally means "all-knowing", so by definition, omniscience cannot be known. Anything that can objectively be known, cannot be omniscient. Even more to the point, omniscience doesn't really have anything to do with ontology. People just assume that a being is omniscient rather than looking at the fact that all knowing can't be known, or what is known. The faculty of knowing doesn't have anything to do with what can be known. The subject of knowledge can never be the object of knowledge.

    Omnipotence means all-potent, or completely potential(from "omnia + potense"). Omnipotence can never be exhausted. What is potent cannot be manifest without redefining the word.

    Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 8:6 that God is the origin of all that exists while Christ is the means by which everything comes into existence. As source or origin of existence, the source or origin of existence cannot logically exist.

    Transcendence or incomparability cannot be compared or likened to anything. Transcendence cannot be known, experienced, or imagined. The texts even provide a commandment forbidding the imaging of gods. Any god that can be imagined is false, and those who imagine them are idolaters if they worship them.

    If transcendence doesn't transcend existence, then it can't be transcendent. There is no essential or effective difference between transcendence and non existence or nothing. By definition, nothing doesn't exist. To ask for proof of nothing,. non-existence or transcendence makes no sense. It is an incoherent and contradictory request.
     
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  2. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who takes pride in their critical thinking skills ...won’t notice. Pride being birthed out of vanity and we know where that comes from...

    Was just talking with my daughter about “selfies”... how now one can be in a complete melt down or mental breakdown or in a serious conversation and there is a pause...hair flips and lips pucker as a fish; turning for the right angle to fully capture the beauty...cell phones begin a clicking ...as if contagious others follow suit “oh a selfie moment!” then back to reality. In where this world is headed toward “futility”...is enough proof of God. Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    John 1:9-10 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. [10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

    Bull. “so by definition, omniscience cannot be known”
     
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  3. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I posted this on some other sites, and the responses from atheists not only confirmed my argument, but to a significantly greater extent than I had imagined.


    I've Never noticed that before, or perhaps never really thought about it. Seems like a pretty conclusive proof of predestination. So this vain world of the ubiquitous selfie is this way to give us hope? I guess on some level it makes sense in that if we were living in some ideal setting, we wouldn't be hoping for anything better. When things get ridiculous, it forces us to hope for something better.



    Setting aside the fact that the highlighted text confirms my post, omniscience, by definition, cannot be the known. It's literally the difference between knowing and known; the knower and the known. All knowing is not all known. Every man that comes into the world is lit, known, but doesn't know him because the knower is not the known. Paul points out the same thing when he says: "we know God or rather are known of him" He corrects himself. He gets it.
     
  4. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @VictoryinJesus Hi there; yes, this is searching. I guess more broadly for anyone working in photography, or clothes stores, or cosmetology, or different forms of the art industry, or tattoo parlors (the list is long), one has to pay a certain attention to one's personal image, or to helping others to pay attention to theirs. But yes, it's important inwardly and spiritually to keep self in check.
     
  5. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think Hebrews 11.6 is a good yardstick...
     
  6. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    Do not see how skeptics can deny there is vanity, futility, emptiness, and all are under the bondage of death.

    “So this vain world of the ubiquitous selfie is this way to give us hope?”

    We all have tasted of emptiness. It is weird: skeptics may say God is futile, Wasted time and not a tangible hope, even a foolish hope. Futile and pointless. All the while not seeing they have it backwards and what they hope in won’t last. Skeptics may say how can anyone have faith in a God who is invisible? but we have seen Him. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
     
  7. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    No one sees what is invisible. Paul even corrects himself: ", after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God," Gal 4:9
     
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  8. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Which should give us pause at the warning of Jesus when He said of those who don't believe, I never knew you. It isn't about us knowing God, its about us being real and honest before the God who knows us.
     
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  9. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    See your point.
     
  10. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    “I never knew you” can also be seen as a beautiful promise in God said He will remember our inquiries no more. All things becoming New...the worker of iniquity cut away and departed (divided asunder)from Him. The fullness of His words in God says what He means, and means what He says “I never knew you.”

    The thief on the cross said “remember me” to Christ. The goats and the sheep seen there in the exchange between the two with Him in crucifixion. One departs ...and is forgotten. Too many references to “remember” here is are only a few:

    Nehemiah 13:14 Remember me, O my God, concerning this, and wipe not out my good deeds that I have done for the house of my God, and for the offices thereof.

    Nehemiah 13:31 And for the wood offering, at times appointed, and for the firstfruits. Remember me, O my God, for good.

    Psalm 79:8-9 O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low. [9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

    “Purge away our sins” then hear “depart, I never knew you who works iniquity” in He is able to purge His floor and gather His wheat.

    So yes: rather to be known of God. Which, for me, goes back to Emptiness or futility that is forgotten or “remember me”: Romans 8:19-21 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Psalm 25:7-9 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O Lord. [8] Good and upright is the Lord : therefore will he teach sinners in the way. [9] The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

    Isn’t that what we desire...for others to be known of God and remembered for His goodness’ sake? Isn’t their being known of God freedom from emptiness and futility?
     
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  11. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    More importantly, do you see how this relates to the original post?

    I believe I have discovered not just a point of common ground between theism and atheism, but a completely level playing field in which they are at a distinct disadvantage, and cannot help but articulate complete and utter nonsense. I'm not just using logic, and the basic definitions of words, but the bible as well. Your scriptural contributions are also right in line with them as well.
     
  12. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    It's not just about belief. It is explicitly about a belief that produces fruit according to God's will. Christians believe in themselves. They don't believe in God at all because they believe that what they accomplish is according to their ability to carry out God's will. Their doctrines are false and their praxis confirms it which is why so many people can't help but walk away from organized religions which are caught in dead rituals with no meaning and no purpose other than self fulfillment; the antithesis of the gospel.
     
  13. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic insight!

    I see it more that they're free from everything in this fallen world. It is a complete emptying of self. It is self denial/self sacrifice.

    An empty tomb is an apt illustration. We identify with our selves, but who or what is left when the self is sacrificed? There's no body, no self, no identity other than the one all have in Christ.

    The futility is in ourselves.
     
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  14. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    What a searching chapter Romans 8 is! :)
     
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  15. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    One who demands proof of ANYTHING, is not the measure of what is true and what is not.

    It is rather an admission of their own ignorance.
     
  16. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who makes a claim about facts should be prepared to provide evidence to support there claim.
    If one claims there is a God. One must be prepared to provide evidence.
    If one claims there is no God one must be prepared to provide evidence.
    It is how debate works.
     
  17. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    nice imo
    all the gods i know have fallen
    i guess negative entropy is pretty hard to dismiss, though
     
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