The Bible is more a record of those who "know", than those who "believe."

[ScottA]

The term "believers" has become the common assumed position of those who come to, and follow, God and Christ. However, at the core of the believing community, are those who do not believe by faith at all, but "know" without a shadow of doubt, the truth of God and Christ because of "first hand" or "eye witness" experience. I am such a one...and those who seek to know God should, and can, be assured that our faith and yours, is not based in some feel-good notion of hope that good will prevail. No, in fact, the main characters of the Bible are those who "know", rather than merely believe, and have had a personal encounter with almighty God. In this, indeed, we may have faith.

 

[Stranger]

ScottA

I'm not sure of what you're saying. All come by faith. As a result all have the ability to know in the Spiritual realm of God. Then we progress in our spiritual walk as our faith grows. Just because my walk is a product of 'faith' doesn't mean I don't know.

I don't think 'faith' ever meant believing in something you don't believe in. It means you believe it.

Your division of 'those who know' and 'those who have only faith' seems strange.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

ScottA

I'm not sure of what you're saying. All come by faith. As a result all have the ability to know in the Spiritual realm of God. Then we progress in our spiritual walk as our faith grows. Just because my walk is a product of 'faith' doesn't mean I don't know.

I don't think 'faith' ever meant believing in something you don't believe in. It means you believe it.

Your division of 'those who know' and 'those who have only faith' seems strange.

Stranger

Essentially, there is a difference between "believing" and "knowing." Jesus referred to this difference when he addressed [doubting] Thomas, saying: “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The Christian community has adopted the term "believer", possibly leading non-believing seekers to think that is all there is - that no one really "knows." My point is to say for certain that, that simply isn't true...that the core of Christianity is not merely based on faith in something that no one can actually know, therefore making Christianity no different than a thousand other would-be religious pursuits. Because of the common use of the term "believer", the fact that we know what we know for a fact, is obscured and rarely stated.

 

[lforrest]

Experiential evidence is dismissed as insufficient proof by unbelievers. So all the knowledge you have means nothing to them.

Even among believers the same evidence can mean nothing to them, but to you proves everything you know about God.

I believe it is the result this verse in action, as we progress with our spiritual growth. Not that it is speaking of experiences, but of identity. We have to identify with Jesus, and the result is knowing him better.

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
1 Corinthians 13:12

While I was still a baby Christian I experienced many things that only later am I able to look back and see God's hand.

 

[ScottA]

Experiential evidence is dismissed as insufficient proof by unbelievers. So all the knowledge you have means nothing to them.

Even among believers the same evidence can mean nothing to them, but to you proves everything you know about God.

I believe it is the result this verse in action, as we progress with our spiritual growth. Not that it is speaking of experiences, but of identity. We have to identify with Jesus, and the result is knowing him better.

"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
1 Corinthians 13:12

While I was still a baby Christian I experienced many things that only later am I able to look back and see God's hand.

Not accepting eyewitness testimony is certainly their loss. Works for murder, not life? Sad.

 

[Stranger]

Essentially, there is a difference between "believing" and "knowing." Jesus referred to this difference when he addressed [doubting] Thomas, saying: “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The Christian community has adopted the term "believer", possibly leading non-believing seekers to think that is all there is - that no one really "knows." My point is to say for certain that, that simply isn't true...that the core of Christianity is not merely based on faith in something that no one can actually know, therefore making Christianity no different than a thousand other would-be religious pursuits. Because of the common use of the term "believer", the fact that we know what we know for a fact, is obscured and rarely stated.

I disagree with you. The believer, because he is a believer, knows. That is what drives him to God and Christ. If one comes to Christ, but doesn't really believe it, then he is not saved. That means the believer must know.

Belief is all that is required,...but that is required. Not fake testimony. But do you believe? You can't fake it before God. And if you believe, then you know.

Thomas was honest. He required verification. Jesus gave it to him. Thomas was a believer.

Our faith in Christ is never in something you don't know, as you describe. It is always, we believe because we know.

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

I disagree with you. The believer, because he is a believer, knows. That is what drives him to God and Christ. If one comes to Christ, but doesn't really believe it, then he is not saved. That means the believer must know.

Belief is all that is required,...but that is required. Not fake testimony. But do you believe? You can't fake it before God. And if you believe, then you know.

Thomas was honest. He required verification. Jesus gave it to him. Thomas was a believer.

Our faith in Christ is never in something you don't know, as you describe. It is always, we believe because we know.

Stranger

It's simple English, "believing" and "knowing" are two different things. Onlookers are smart enough to know that...or at least believe it.

 

[Sword]

Go Scott I agree with most of what you say. Its all about relationship

 

[ScottA]

Go Scott I agree with most of what you say. Its all about relationship

I just imagine people looking in on Christians from the outside, thinking...How nice, they all "believe" in a god that can't be seen! When the reality is, many do believe, but many do not need to venture belief...because they/we "know" for certain. God is not a "belief", he's a fact.

 

[Stranger]

It's simple English, "believing" and "knowing" are two different things. Onlookers are smart enough to know that...or at least believe it.

Indeed they are two different things. But they work together. (John 10:38) " But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe,...."

(1John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Concerning your statement to Sword, that many do not need to venture belief, you are on dangerous ground. You never come into salvation without belief. You're suggesting you came in 'knowing', thus separating it from belief.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Go Scott I agree with most of what you say. Its all about relationship

i pretty much agree myself, but am curious how the passage "He who says he knows does not yet know as he ought" might be interpreted by you, Scott. What is this passage referring to? ty

 

[ScottA]

Indeed they are two different things. But they work together. (John 10:38) " But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe,...."

(1John 5:13) "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Concerning your statement to Sword, that many do not need to venture belief, you are on dangerous ground. You never come into salvation without belief. You're suggesting you came in 'knowing', thus separating it from belief.

Stranger

No, not at all, and I will clarify. You are correct, as is bbyrd, to say that belief and knowing are both part of our walk, which most certainly requires faith for the long game. But what I am referring to is, that when Paul was met by the Lord on the road to Damascus he did not experience faith or belief, but "knew" that what others may only "believe", he could "know" for certain - not by faith, but by the intervention of God. I "know" this, not only because it makes perfect sense, but that is my experience also. Of course it is also obvious that Paul would have then experienced both faith and belief as well over the course of his life...as have I.

My point is, that those who have not had such an experience or may be of little faith, would have the opportunity to hear the witness of those who have, in order to have greater confidence in the otherwise unseen reality of God. It should be common knowledge among believers that even if they must rely on faith alone, there are many who have seen and heard from the Lord [personally] and that our witness confirms their belief.

 

[ScottA]

i pretty much agree myself, but am curious how the passage "He who says he knows does not yet know as he ought" might be interpreted by you, Scott. What is this passage referring to? ty

I would say that it is true of anyone of us, that at any point in our lives, we only know what we know by what has been established up to that point...by the personal revelation of God - in his timing.

Indeed, Paul is addressing knowledge as apposed to would-be knowledge, in the above passage. In that context, he speaks to those who were hearing the greatest news of all time, who thought they already "knew" stuff...and they did. But, I believe what Paul was saying (in other words), was, "Look - you ain't heard nothing yet! Get over yourselves, and listen up." or: "There are those who have told you in times past that they "know" - but they don't know jack (Jesus), if they don't now share in telling you the same gospel of Christ which I now tell you."

 

[Sword]

I just imagine people looking in on Christians from the outside, thinking...How nice, they all "believe" in a god that can't be seen! When the reality is, many do believe, but many do not need to venture belief...because they/we "know" for certain. God is not a "belief", he's a fact.

What are they thinking when we have 45,000 denominations and everyone think they are right . And God said one church one word one Christ.
We look pretty silly. Just look in here and see there is nothing but confusion imn here and everyones a teacher. and seems they are all ready to stand for the stiffer judgment.

 

[ScottA]

What are they thinking when we have 45,000 denominations and everyone think they are right . And God said one church one word one Christ.
We look pretty silly. Just look in here and see there is nothing but confusion imn here and everyones a teacher. and seems they are all ready to stand for the stiffer judgment.

Yeah, that may be its own topic, but you are correct when it comes to those looking on. It doesn't look very convincing.

I also think you nailed it when you say everyone thinks they are right. I think that is the root of the problem, and yet it is mostly misunderstood. If understood and presented correctly, our diversity should not be considered any discredit to Christianity, but rather to our credit. Indeed we are different - just as the parts of one body are different and do differently having one Head and mind. It's okay to be different. It's not okay to have your own head or mind. And we should be proud to say it is even good that we are different, that we all have our own unique part in the greater plan of God. It should be taught that way.

 

[Sword]

I also think you nailed it when you say everyone thinks they are right.

I was taught recently to pray like this and it works.
Lord I thank you and love you for allowing Christ to come and take our place. Thank you for setting us free. Thank you jesus. You really came. You really liad down your life for me. Holy Spirit I thank you and bless you. That you teach me all things. Lord I want to lay down my life for you. Thank you , That you gave me a desire to come to the secret place. Lord its only you who can hear me. I wont to die to self. I wont to be used by you. Lord you know this is true so I thqank you that you are changing me. and so forth. I was never taught to pray like that in normal church.
This the kind of prayer that lets me see where I really am and how far I came. I want to live for God and never refuse to go.

 

[Stranger]

No, not at all, and I will clarify. You are correct, as is bbyrd, to say that belief and knowing are both part of our walk, which most certainly requires faith for the long game. But what I am referring to is, that when Paul was met by the Lord on the road to Damascus he did not experience faith or belief, but "knew" that what others may only "believe", he could "know" for certain - not by faith, but by the intervention of God. I "know" this, not only because it makes perfect sense, but that is my experience also. Of course it is also obvious that Paul would have then experienced both faith and belief as well over the course of his life...as have I.

My point is, that those who have not had such an experience or may be of little faith, would have the opportunity to hear the witness of those who have, in order to have greater confidence in the otherwise unseen reality of God. It should be common knowledge among believers that even if they must rely on faith alone, there are many who have seen and heard from the Lord [personally] and that our witness confirms their belief.

I never said that. I have said that faith is necessary from the beginning. And that if you didn't come to Christ by faith, you didn't come. Faith is not just for the long game. It is the very entrance. Faith brings with it knowledge of God. Because believing is a gift from God also. (Eph. 2:8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Faith is not of yourself. Which means if you have it, you have it because God gives it to you. A believer believes and knows because God gives it to him to believe and know. You want to place yourself in a 'unique' position of being a 'knower' and not a 'believer'. But, every believer has been given this gift of faith and the ability to know. Every believer knows. Not just you or a certain few. God brings experiences into every believers life in order for them to know Him more. He doesn't do it to just you and a few.

Concerning your statements, you say you know these things because it makes sense and your experience. Strange you left out the Word of God.

Stanger

 

[ScottA]

I never said that. I have said that faith is necessary from the beginning. And that if you didn't come to Christ by faith, you didn't come. Faith is not just for the long game. It is the very entrance. Faith brings with it knowledge of God. Because believing is a gift from God also. (Eph. 2:8) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Faith is not of yourself. Which means if you have it, you have it because God gives it to you. A believer believes and knows because God gives it to him to believe and know. You want to place yourself in a 'unique' position of being a 'knower' and not a 'believer'. But, every believer has been given this gift of faith and the ability to know. Every believer knows. Not just you or a certain few. God brings experiences into every believers life in order for them to know Him more. He doesn't do it to just you and a few.

Concerning your statements, you say you know these things because it makes sense and your experience. Strange you left out the Word of God.

Stanger

You are missing the point...and are apparently too caught up in your own experience to hear any other comments. I do not question or deny your most common understanding. But you deny my explanation, and therefore do not know of it, though I am not the first to have told you.

I specifically gave the example of Paul on the road to Damascus who had absolutely no faith and believe in Jesus (just the opposite) and how he came instantly to "know" Christ...as an example of the distinct difference compared to the way you and many others experience things. The point is that the faith and believe routine is NOT the only way to come to the knowledge of God and Christ...and it is the "knowing" way that tells the non-believing world that the Christian "belief" is not just all in the mind of those who profess it...because some of us can say, NO, we DO NOT believe [only], but "know."

I have used Paul as an example in order to not make this about me. But now, I will also speak of Christ, who complimented those who "believe", but made the greater claimed of assured knowledge, which I also claim: "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness." John 3:11

In conclusion, and my point from the start, is that those who believe, do not believe in vain, and those who have faith can rest assured that we do not wait upon an unsure conclusion, but have had knowledge of the truth since the beginning.

 

[Stranger]

You are missing the point...and are apparently too caught up in your own experience to hear any other comments. I do not question or deny your most common understanding. But you deny my explanation, and therefore do not know of it, though I am not the first to have told you.

I specifically gave the example of Paul on the road to Damascus who had absolutely no faith and believe in Jesus (just the opposite) and how he came instantly to "know" Christ...as an example of the distinct difference compared to the way you and many others experience things. The point is that the faith and believe routine is NOT the only way to come to the knowledge of God and Christ...and it is the "knowing" way that tells the non-believing world that the Christian "belief" is not just all in the mind of those who profess it...because some of us can say, NO, we DO NOT believe [only], but "know."

I have used Paul as an example in order to not make this about me. But now, I will also speak of Christ, who complimented those who "believe", but made the greater claimed of assured knowledge, which I also claim: "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness." John 3:11

In conclusion, and my point from the start, is that those who believe, do not believe in vain, and those who have faith can rest assured that we do not wait upon an unsure conclusion, but have had knowledge of the truth since the beginning.

When you say this is not about you, I disagree. You plainly showed in the OP that it was about you. " I am such a one".

I have not missed the point at all. I deny your explanation because it is flawed. Not because I don't understand it.

To say Paul had no faith before the Damascus experience is incorrect. Paul was a believer in the true God. Under the Old Testament faith was still necessary to be saved. What Paul did in persecuting the Church was done in ignorance. Yet Paul did it faithfully. (1 Tim. 1:12-14) "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

So, you see, your use of Paul to elevate your spiritual self, doesn't work. What do you use now?

Stranger

 

[ScottA]

When you say this is not about you, I disagree. You plainly showed in the OP that it was about you. " I am such a one".

I have not missed the point at all. I deny your explanation because it is flawed. Not because I don't understand it.

To say Paul had no faith before the Damascus experience is incorrect. Paul was a believer in the true God. Under the Old Testament faith was still necessary to be saved. What Paul did in persecuting the Church was done in ignorance. Yet Paul did it faithfully. (1 Tim. 1:12-14) "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

So, you see, your use of Paul to elevate your spiritual self, doesn't work. What do you use now?

Stranger

Well...good job...you got one word right: "ignorance."